"I see pyramiding"

[wellington]

Ok, one more and I'm done. I feel so bad for a friends' pair of tortoises now that I know what I should be doing. They're big, about two feet long, share a burrow, one gets bullied, they never get water EVER, and you can walk the length of their enclosure in about ten steps. Do they look unhealthy or uncared for? I don't think so, but I'm no expert...yet. Thank you all who contribute so generously and are helping people like me raise a happy tortoise.

Boy, just wonder how their care takers would like it if they lived like that. I'm sure they wouldn't. They also probably think they are doing right by them, because that's what they were taught and no one has cared enough about the torts to tell them different. Some people want to be liked more then doing what's right for an animal, so they say nothing.
Everything can be said in a nice, uninsulting way, and some people will still get bent, becuase they think they know it all.
However, at least if it's said, they have heard it and possibly will start to search it out.

 

[Turtlepete]

The problem I've seen with this forum, long before I joined it, is sometimes just how aggressive people will be when trying to "educate" someone. When the first thing a new member hears is that they are doing everything wrong, you should be ashamed of yourself, and "your tortoise is pyramided", often, they don't come back. Or how about when someone innocently shares in a picture that they keep two species together. They are instantly shamed for practicing something "unsafe". Often, the result of the aggression with which they are "educated", that person is not going to feel obligated to come back to this forum, or "learn" from it. Maybe they weren't seeking advice originally (though they may need it), and just wanted to share. When they are shamed to feel they are doing everything wrong, often attacked, do you think that makes them want to learn from you? Absolutely not. Yet often, that is the approach this forum takes.

The infatuation with pyramiding is disappointing. It certainly seems that people try to set the standard of a healthy tort at "has a smooth shell", and thats it. I would guess this is because pyramiding is the easiest visual cue to pick up on that tells you anything at all about how a tortoise is raised, and thus the only judgement of health taken from a picture that the majority of people are qualified to assess. A few bumps on the scutes are often inconsequential to the overall health of a tortoise, but it seems to be the biggest thing people will consider when "evaluating" a tortoise's health.

 

[Yourlocalpoet]

There is a distinct 'pyramiding police' presence on this forum, but it's only done out of concern for the tortoise's welfare.

The one liners are not helpful, I agree, but I think they are only done by a minority. This is because when you've been on the forum long enough, you get to know details and backgrounds of certain members' lives, and their tortoises and therefore know whether it's appropriate to comment on certain things or not. You also learn there is more to tortoise husbandry than just humidity.

I also call this, not being a moron.

You also realise, as a newbie, quite quickly who knows what they're talking about and who doesn't. Therefore you know who's comments to take and who's to dismiss, ie, the unhelpful ones.

I think people just need to read more, think and then post. But, at the same time, I do think people get offended far too easily.


Sent from my iPhone using Tortoise Forum

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

I decided to put this in debatable topics because I suppose there are many opinions on this.
This is about a pet peeve of mine that is growing as I become more involved in reading posts and sharing with members – both new and experienced. More than once, I’ve seen comments on pictures – especially a new person’s post that say …

“I see pyramiding”

It irritates me. Okay, so you see pyramiding, so what? What are you trying to accomplish with a stand alone comment like this? It comes across as snide, self-righteous, and just plain mean.

I’ve not been a member of the forum for long, but have been raising torts for some time as pets. Seems I always had one kind or another, especially when I was young.
My first Sulcata was a rescue, and he was very pyramided. Way back then we thought it was solely because of an improper to much protien diet and did not understand the humidity needs, especially during the growth spurts. I did get that he needed constant water available, but never thought to soak him. Though he seemed to be healthy, the damage was done to his shell, and could not be reversed. He ended up getting a good home and is still there doing fine today some 15 years later.

My other peeve with the pyramiding subject is how it has become the benchmark for appropriate husbandry of our tortoises. There is so much emphasis on this that many other important issues seem to pale in comparison. No matter what picture is posted it seems the first thing people want to comment on is the smoothness ( or lack thereof) of the shell, as if this is the end all – be all – of a healthy tort. This perpetuates this obsession with the “perfect shell” and creates a panic in new owners who see even the slightest bit of bumpiness on the shell. Is this really the issue we are making it out to be? Has no one ever seen a perfectly fine and healthy tort with some pyramiding on the shell? This actually happens in the wild also, though I do not have any photos of this, I did see it in Kenya with a wild Sulcata. It has also been reported with Leopards.

The pride that I see in those with torts with perfectly smooth shells is really excessive. And I believe that it is doing a disservice to new people who are doing their best but either got a tort with pyramiding already started or just don’t know any better till they join the forum. I think advice is great, but do we really need to throw neebees into a panic of guilt?

I am certain more new people would post pics of their more mature torts but are worried about the comments.

Please people, at the very least, stop the “I see pyramiding” stand alone comments. It’s rude. "I see stupid people" all the time, but I know better than to comment on it like that.

Alaskamike I hope you find this a humerouse response;

Many people say "I see pyramiding" because so many people are in deNILE about it. Get it - the Nile river goes by the pyramids. And there are many people in denile about pyramiding.

If as a stand alone matter, it's not the worst possible result of less than optimal care. But I'd rather look at a wild type than a 'rabbit pellet' type.

 

[littleginsu]

Like, where in the wild does a tortoise have access to a shallow dish of water? Right?? Now I know they dig depressions to catch water, and they conserve what they do manage to get. Shallow dish of water always in my pen, and a good spray down couple times a day, with a constantly damp burrow.

Not to get too off topic, I would guess maybe a tortoise would not complete submerge in a water hole, but perhaps just chill out on the banks... Plus since it has grade instead of a lip, there is probably less chance of flipping while trying to get out. But, I am guessing, so... I could be completely wrong. Lol

 

[Tom]

Good thread ....and a lot of honest answers .....Now how about this one -
How would all this humidity "info" take into account on the Mojave Desert Tortoise?
In a single day in the Mojave, the climate (weather patterns for a particular region or habitat) is often very extreme, reaching hot temperatures of 50°C (120°F) and even hotter in the summer and often much cooler when the sun goes down (outside of the city - where there is no concrete or asphalt to hold the heat). In the winter, the temperature often stays below freezing at night but warms up to a comparatively comfortable temperature in the day. Because of these extremes, it is full of organisms with unique adaptations many people don't even realize exist!
Now for our tortoise friends this is can be an intriguing question regarding high humidity while young - to establish smooth carapace growth.
The Mojave averages less than 12cm (5 inches) of precipitation (rain and snow) a year with an average of 1.3 inches. The relative humidity levels range from about 55 percent at night and 32 percent at day during winter months, from December through February, to as low as 25 percent at night and 10 percent at day during summer months, in June and July
Taking into account when the tortoises are born in the wild (spring/early summer) it also happens to be the driest time of the year.

How are above ground temps, humidity and conditions relevant for a fossorial sub-terranian dweller? Tell me what conditions the earthworms in Mojave are dealing with, and then we will be getting somewhere.

 

[Tom]

Great interaction I think some may have missed my point about " stand alone" comments on pyramiding.

I have seen exactly this comment.
" I see pyramiding"
On a thread - more than one. With no suggestions as to ways to minimize , help or understand it. No further words at all. It was these posts that got me going.

Also, when someone makes the comment about pyramiding on a posted picture , gives advise and links to correct / minimize this , I also see 4 or 5 other people chime in about it. Is this really necessary ?

It almost feels like a pile up - you know the guy is already tackled so let's get the rest of the team on top of him so he is really down for the count.

I'm NOT saying getting good healthy husbandry info to tortoise keepers is wrong. Or even that we should coddle people Just use a bit of common sense and be sure your motivation is to be helpful.

Mike, Its hard to comment on this without knowing who said that. Are you aware that we have quite a few children who post regularly here? They are good kids for the most part, but sometimes their comments might come across the wrong way to someone who doesn't understand the situation...

Might this account for some of what you are seeing in relation to this subject?

 

[Tom]

Like, where in the wild does a tortoise have access to a shallow dish of water? Right?? Now I know they dig depressions to catch water, and they conserve what they do manage to get. Shallow dish of water always in my pen, and a good spray down couple times a day, with a constantly damp burrow.

My friend Rodney recently did a post of pics of sulcatas in the wild. The first pic was a big sulcata sitting in a big puddle of water. In "The Crying Tortoise" there is another similar pic.

The answer to your question is: "Everywhere."

 

[CharlieM]

One Facebook group I'm on starts with:


Keep it friendly at all times. We know you mean well.
1 - Do not give advice unless advice is asked for, save the lectures..
2 - No judging. Nobody owes anybody an explanation. So in other words.. no sticking your nose into other peoples affairs.
3 - Respect each others opinions even if you don't agree with them. you can suggest without being rude.

I don't post very much because a few prominent members can be so judgemental and at times aggressive. Some have a really hard time staying on the topic.
It's not always what you say but how you say it.

 

[N2TORTS]

How are above ground temps, humidity and conditions relevant for a fossorial sub-terranian dweller? Tell me what conditions the earthworms in Mojave are dealing with, and then we will be getting somewhere.

How are above ground temps, humidity and conditions relevant for a fossorial sub-terranian dweller? Tell me what conditions the earthworms in Mojave are dealing with, and then we will be getting somewhere.

Well Tom not sure what you mean but yes there are Desert Earthworms …..although I don’t think they pyramid. I had no intentions to get into this debate, I was merely using a Native species I’m close to and familiar with . I don’t breed them never have ….but have been around them since the 60’s numerous of times while mapping most parts of the Mojave with my father. So in contrast just using a role model and how it adapts in the wild with a smooth carapace in a very dry climate with mere humidity…and perhaps lighting the mood from the original OP , who I think made some valid points . There are many experienced keepers in here, and I would hope and most do Like yourself well respected and mannered.
Now for earth worms ……“Worms,” said Charles Darwin in The Formation of Vegetable Mould, the last of his books, “have played a more important part in the history of the world than most persons would at first suppose.” The earthworms’ ancestors have been stirring the soil of the earth for perhaps 120 million years. In the desert, the earthworms live, not in the organically poor desert sands, but primarily in the richer riverine floodplains where, daily, each worm can ingest its weight in decaying organic materials and minerals, converting them into nutrients, enriching the soil. Numbering as many as hundreds of thousands per acre, earthworms not only contribute in a major way to increasing the fertility of the soil, they also serve as an important food source for a diverse array of other animals, including the vertebrates. …Desert invertebrates are stunningly complex in their diversity, include, for a few examples, the arthropods (insects, spiders, scorpions, centipedes, millipedes, desert shrimp and many others), the mollusks (snails) and annelids (segmented earthworms). Desert snails survive the heat and drought by taking refuge in stony crevices or burrowing into mud, relying on their shells to preserve their moisture until the next rains bring more water. “They will withdraw into their shells, and hibernate or sleep, for as much as 2-3 years, until conditions improve,” says AmusingFacts. Snails feed on plants, fungi and plant detritus, and they serve as prey for several animals.
And even more bizarre……
Desert shrimp, which live in ephemeral playas and water holes, rank as true crustaceans, like the shrimp, crabs and lobsters of the oceans. The desert shrimps’ eggs, provided they dry completely, hatch in vast numbers when rain brings water to their playas and water holes. Adults, depending on the species, range from a half inch to two inches in length. Omnivores, desert shrimp eat fungi, algae and microscopic organisms. Remarkably adapted to the desert, they produce eggs that may lie desiccated for years awaiting the hatching cues prompted by rainfall. Some species breathe through their feet, where gills are located. Their great numbers following a hatch attract large populations of waterbirds during migratory seasons. The shrimp die as their water evaporates.

 

[Tom]

One Facebook group I'm on starts with:


Keep it friendly at all times. We know you mean well.
1 - Do not give advice unless advice is asked for, save the lectures..
2 - No judging. Nobody owes anybody an explanation. So in other words.. no sticking your nose into other peoples affairs.
3 - Respect each others opinions even if you don't agree with them. you can suggest without being rude.

I don't post very much because a few prominent members can be so judgemental and at times aggressive.
It's not always what you say but how you say it.

I think this is sound advice on a forum where people's feelings are at stake.

When an animal's health or life is at stake, sometimes things need to be said in a way that might not always line up with those three guidelines.

This is another case of the "Golden Rule" causing problems. Some people want to be coddled and easily take offense at frank, straight forward advice. I want frank, straight forward advice from people who know what they are talking about on a subject that I post about. I don't need or want coddling, and I find "sugar-coating" irritating and a hindrance to getting good info from people. A certain percentage of people are going to be irritated or offended when we treat them how we want to be treated. Not everybody likes the same thing. When I come across one of these sensitive types, I just back off and leave them alone. My in box is full of plenty of "thank you" notes from people who did/do appreciate my style of "help". This is the reason why this forum is so fantastic. There are a wide variety of personalities to suit what just about anyone could want. If I am too abrasive or harsh, they could instead take advice from the ever-eloquent Yvonne, who is also pretty straight forward, but much more tactful than me. Or Heather, who has a talent for noticing and catering to people's idiosyncrasies. Or Cowboy Ken who addresses most topics with a healthy dose of humor. Or Will who has a no-nonsense factual approach. Or Neal who examines everything with a critical eye. The list of great people here never ends and as a group, I think we cover all angles and do an awesome job.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Good thread ....and a lot of honest answers .....Now how about this one -
How would all this humidity "info" take into account on the Mojave Desert Tortoise?
In a single day in the Mojave, the climate (weather patterns for a particular region or habitat) is often very extreme, reaching hot temperatures of 50°C (120°F) and even hotter in the summer and often much cooler when the sun goes down (outside of the city - where there is no concrete or asphalt to hold the heat). In the winter, the temperature often stays below freezing at night but warms up to a comparatively comfortable temperature in the day. Because of these extremes, it is full of organisms with unique adaptations many people don't even realize exist!
Now for our tortoise friends this is can be an intriguing question regarding high humidity while young - to establish smooth carapace growth.
The Mojave averages less than 12cm (5 inches) of precipitation (rain and snow) a year with an average of 1.3 inches. The relative humidity levels range from about 55 percent at night and 32 percent at day during winter months, from December through February, to as low as 25 percent at night and 10 percent at day during summer months, in June and July
Taking into account when the tortoises are born in the wild (spring/early summer) it also happens to be the driest time of the year.


Life as we know it can not exist without water. So how does the desert tortoise do it? <~~~~some fun "sarcasm" with a smooth carapace.

I see The OP's point of view to the full extent and agree with some of his comments , on the other note- yes I have through the years learned that humidity does and will play an important role on captive bred tortoises concerning carapace growth.

Desert tortoises don't pyramid the way Sulcata do. Chaco's pyramid badly too.
In the wild our Gopherus agassizii digs a long burrow to get himself out of the desert heat. While down underground they poop and pee in their den and, Lo and Behold...humidity I have kept numerous Sulcata and more desert tortoises and I can tell you from personal experience desert torts don't pyramid very easily at all.
Bob was 5 when I got him, already slightly pyramided; and even with all the knowledge I have about pyramiding his carapace got worse after I started to care for him. I know I did everything right, but it almost looks like a few scutes have deep grooves underneath. He has that 'captive' dip on his back and his carapace has 'flares' over his head and legs. He's not a good example at all, and I tried so hard. So I do get defensive about it. I know how he's supposed to look.
So I guess I am one of 'those' people who will tell a newbie his tort is pyramiding and why. I also tell them how to stop it....I think pyramiding tells a lot about the unseen condition of the animal, and what's scary to me is, the amount of people who think pyramiding is normal. I think we need to work very hard to educate the new keeper and WIPE OUT PYRAMIDING..

 

[ascott]

Regarding what JD referred to, I'm asking @ascott to tell us what it's like in the desert right now. Are you having the monsoon season like the babies in Africa are hatching into? September is the month that desert tortoise and Texas tortoise eggs hatch, so you folks living in the California/Arizona/Texas deserts, is it raining for your hatchlings?

Yvonne....we have not seen rain here for 3 years (and a few minutes of showers does not count as rain)...I am continually running every and all hoses /sprinklers and flood irrigating systems I have here....and you can still ....still... still see how stressed the non native shade trees as well as the natural native scrub and vegetation are .....the last two years were not as "apparent" as this year.

I visit/go out into the Mojave about once every other weekend....I am always amazed at the pure perfection on display with regards to the desert landscape and its occupants....the rules that apply here---are unmatched anywhere else, PERIOD.

For example, the Mojave received rapid heavy rain fall about two different days this summer....the blankets created flash flood zones...flowed away quickly, unable to absorb all of that precious water in our dense loam....however....it has been a solid month and a half since the first of the two rain events have taken place....there are micro climates so so so easy to spot, these areas are the areas richest with sightings of our gorgeous CDTs...they are areas that for some fantastic reason can take a drop of water and make an entire bush bloom as though it had been watered steady for an entire season....there are plump energetic bright eyed tortoise trucking about early and late in the day....they are a perfect match for this perfect wild land....there is not high humidity (not even down in the burrows--some but not high humidity), there are not reliable periods of rain...and yet, these perfectly designed tortoise grow smooth as glass....there are factors here that I "speculate" contribute, but as with all others familiar with the area, they are only speculations---and yet not proven beyond a doubt. Therefore, with this species, my opinion is to offer the tortoise in my care the closest mimic of what we see ---monkey see monkey do---and that appears to be received well.

JD--the information points for CDTs that you outlined are valuable points and should not be dismissed....the environment in which this species lives, dies and then some how thrives in requires such an exact balance that when we think we should change things/pieces to what we believe would be better---this is the worst violation we can make....we simply DO NOT KNOW BETTER.

In my opinion, hydration is essential---and there are ways that it is offered and cherished by the creatures that rely on this exact balance...and this is why, also in my opinion, it is so important to not try to "fix" things in such a way that makes "us" feel warm and fuzzy...high humidity, constant wet environments---with this species and other arid species (yes, I said arid--and I mean arid environments designed to be just that) can create a bad and ill designed environment for a creature not designed that way....I have NEVER seen a CDT in the wild that is anything but glass smooth...but this is a result of them living in the environment they were designed to reside in....again, my opinion-- based on my observation along with the reports/findings/discussions of people that place themselves right in that environment for long periods of time...with one purpose, to sometimes sit for days and do nothing but observe and log--without offering opinion, quietly and gently move about without disturbing the environment--respecting it, taking care to not smash plants not disturb rock formations--but to truly observe and "visit" the desert with the goal to gather intel....then to share what they find....they will then replicate by sight what they have seen, in pure form with hopes that doing so will offer the tort the ability to continue function---this is the best usable information, it is the information that you can take with you to the same areas and can observe the same behavior over and over and over again....and even after doing this for years (some making it a lifelong passion) they don't pollute pure behavior by simple human labeling .....I could go on (some folks find it to be rambling) and on with this species but will stop here...thank you for inviting this species into this conversation...and allowing me an excuse to oogle them...

To offer my opinion on the initial post/purpose. I believe that folks are sometimes quick to cast the first stone, even if they know not where the pile came from....so don't always know the story in front of them....I have been accused at times of being short or to the point....I am getting older and have to admit that I sometimes have to remember my manners in the presentation of information I would like to share....but rarely is my tongue sharpened on purpose (I say rarely, because alas I too am not perfect and can become a bit snide from time to time especially when met by an ahole....)...

I personally do not expect a perfect shell on any captive tortoise, (they simply can not do perfection in such an artificial captive environment often times unnatural in comparison to their actual wild land)---to me that is not an indicator of a healthy tortoise...I also do not think that high levels of humidity in a confined space is a cure all for a shell to be forever smooth and also equate to a healthy tortoise...somewhat like when our nails are continually wet--they are much more pliable...but they can not remain wet and healthy forever...there will be the moment of the dry out--and this is the part we don't know enough about....to me long term study would require years and years of accurate logs...and in my opinion, years in the topic of tortoise would be 20-30-40 years of tried and exacts to never waiver, this would then offer a better view of results....I mean, I know that CDTs have a few hundred years rolleyes, ok, perhaps a couple more than that (sarcasm here) of proof that they are perfectly designed for the environment perfectly designed for them to live in....who am I to try to think I know better....

I also find that the term "newbie" has developed a different connotation that it should....just because someone is new to this Forum does not mean they are new to this planet....and too often I see dismissive statements made to disregard any words a new member or new host has to offer...this also can be added to the list of irritating behaviors I cringe at....I read each and every persons input--from the newest member on through....just because something is new does not discount its value.....just as some old ways are not always the wrong ways....

 

[Maggie Cummings]

This picture almost shows what I'm talking about, the grooves under a scute.

I also think that on an over all basis TFO is much less aggressive than most forums. I think that the written word can be misunderstood as aggression when it's someone like me just being direct and slightly grumpy.

 

[ascott]

I have had this guy since 1973

Beautiful....I love the variations in the shell color....

 

[ascott]

While down underground they poop and pee in their den and, Lo and Behold...humidity

Maggie,

I am going to simply voice a long nagging question in regards to this statement that I have seen from time to time....and please do not read into it in any way other than an inquiring mind (not expecting you to know the answer, but just one of those hmmm? questions--okay).

With this species (CDT) specifically, they have very little access and opportunity to regular sources of water, right? They are known to retain water in their bodies/system for as long as 2-4 years (the same fluid/liquid product that was once water) when there is drought.....there is much caution taken to not startle a CDT due to them reactively voiding their bodies of all fluid and in turn no longer having that needed fluid to live, right? So, to think that a CDT would spend time repeatedly peeing in their burrow always makes me scratch my head...why in the world would a tortoise void this essential liquid from their body over and over again without a reliable source to re up the water? Just does not make sense...to me.

I have to also say that when ever I have seen the CDTs here (just as an example point) pee, it is always near where they take in new water/fluid....every time....when they are taking in the water or consuming a wet food, about half way through--they begin to pee as they fill up with the new.....

 

[Judy@SYR]

One more thought that comes to mind, specifically about the focus on pyramiding as a problem. Pyramiding is one of the few obvious clues that something may be wrong with a tortoise. In an online forum, all we can go by is visual clues, and those visual clues are limited to the quality of the pictures provided, which often offer only a limited view of the animal. So all anyone can really see is the carapace and whatever growth issues it may be having. SO, of course, that is going to be a primary focus of conversation from anyone concerned about the animal's well being.

 

[lisa127]

I think this is sound advice on a forum where people's feelings are at stake.

When an animal's health or life is at stake, sometimes things need to be said in a way that might not always line up with those three guidelines.

This is another case of the "Golden Rule" causing problems. Some people want to be coddled and easily take offense at frank, straight forward advice. I want frank, straight forward advice from people who know what they are talking about on a subject that I post about. I don't need or want coddling, and I find "sugar-coating" irritating and a hindrance to getting good info from people. A certain percentage of people are going to be irritated or offended when we treat them how we want to be treated. Not everybody likes the same thing. When I come across one of these sensitive types, I just back off and leave them alone. My in box is full of plenty of "thank you" notes from people who did/do appreciate my style of "help". This is the reason why this forum is so fantastic. There are a wide variety of personalities to suit what just about anyone could want. If I am too abrasive or harsh, they could instead take advice from the ever-eloquent Yvonne, who is also pretty straight forward, but much more tactful than me. Or Heather, who has a talent for noticing and catering to people's idiosyncrasies. Or Cowboy Ken who addresses most topics with a healthy dose of humor. Or Will who has a no-nonsense factual approach. Or Neal who examines everything with a critical eye. The list of great people here never ends and as a group, I think we cover all angles and do an awesome job.

Being an animal lover, I tend to agree with you. However, to us the health or life of an animal is important enough to break these "guidelines". To others, there may be other topics more important and more worthy of breaking those guidelines. Not trying to be difficult, just realizing that everyone feels that what they feel is important is well....important.

 

[tortadise]

The best way for me to describe to someone about the ultimate complete care of a tortoise,turtle, or even a frog. Is to establish a micro habitat in which ever inside room, outside enclosure etc.. I did a thread on this a whole back. Pyramiding is not the only issue that can lead to an unhealthy animal.


http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/significant-of-microclimates-in-captivity.85293/

 

[Alaskamike]

There are so many great quality comments here. It is truly amazing the experience and wisdom demonstrated. This conversation I believe has been fruitful. Certainly people are giving these issues more thought.

It is apparent to me there is still much to learn about our wonderful creatures. I look forward to growing along the way ..... As my tort buddies grow.

Thanks for the efforts at clarity every poster shows.
Mike