"I see pyramiding"

[Tom]

To clarify my comment regarding shells appearing to be made of plastic..animal on the right compared to the left.

Maybe its my little screen, but I am not seeing a big difference there. Looks like the left one is a little dirtier from living outside, and the one on the right looks more recently rinsed off.

I suppose this is off topic, but you POV does interest me here.

 

[tglazie]

Pyramiding is always such a controversial topic. What I never realized was that I was very lucky to be living in a humid environment. San Antonio, despite having gone through innumerable droughts over the past two decades, has actually been rather humid, rarely if ever falling below fifty percent. So I always assumed (before reading the work of folks on this forum) that pyramiding was 100% a dietary problem. All of the tortoises I've raised over the years have grown smooth, and whenever I saw a pyramided tortoise, I always considered the person who raised the animal to be an uninformed ignoramus. I also noticed that tortoises raised indoors were pyramided regardless of the dietary content, an inconsistency that escaped me until I read posts on this forum, at which point I had this Eureka moment. Of course tortoises indoors pyramid. Humidity in climate controlled environments is unnaturally low. This is also interesting, given that I always dreamed of moving back to New Mexico, where my tortoises would live in an "ideal" environment, failing to realize when I was dreaming of the terminally dry region, the environment would actually be far from ideal.

San Antonio has some troubles, environmentally speaking. The summers are scorchers here, and spring and autumn are incredibly unpredictable. But overall, I would say that I've been very lucky. My torts have grown smooth with the aid of a fantastically reptile friendly climate and the occasional soak, not like all you other poor folks in the greater southwest with your elaborate closed chambers and extensive indoor setups.

T.G.

 

[Tom]

Pyramiding is always such a controversial topic. What I never realized was that I was very lucky to be living in a humid environment. San Antonio, despite having gone through innumerable droughts over the past two decades, has actually been rather humid, rarely if ever falling below fifty percent. So I always assumed (before reading the work of folks on this forum) that pyramiding was 100% a dietary problem. All of the tortoises I've raised over the years have grown smooth, and whenever I saw a pyramided tortoise, I always considered the person who raised the animal to be an uninformed ignoramus. I also noticed that tortoises raised indoors were pyramided regardless of the dietary content, an inconsistency that escaped me until I read posts on this forum, at which point I had this Eureka moment. Of course tortoises indoors pyramid. Humidity in climate controlled environments is unnaturally low. This is also interesting, given that I always dreamed of moving back to New Mexico, where my tortoises would live in an "ideal" environment, failing to realize when I was dreaming of the terminally dry region, the environment would actually be far from ideal.

San Antonio has some troubles, environmentally speaking. The summers are scorchers here, and spring and autumn are incredibly unpredictable. But overall, I would say that I've been very lucky. My torts have grown smooth with the aid of a fantastically reptile friendly climate and the occasional soak, not like all you other poor folks in the greater southwest with your elaborate closed chambers and extensive indoor setups.

T.G.

BINGO!

Your words here are like a beautiful song...

 

[ascott]

Accusing someone who has tenfold the experience

Tell me what exactly I accused anyone of? Be specific. With all of your wordy crap---be specific.

Tom, many folks love reptiles, they get them because they are fascinated with them, intrigued and in love with them...sometimes they learn as they go, sometimes they learn after one has died and then there is space somewhere between there.... Josh created this site, not you...so folks will have a wealth of information to pull from as well as to offer their opinion, speculation, based on a number of factors... I will not stoop down to the level you now have. You have drawn a clear and deep line in the dirt, I will be certain to never let that discovery fall to the wayside... I wish you well and I will be certain to not mistake your position, with regards to my presence, ever again...thank you for showing your true face. Best wishes.

I am clear and careful to show "in my opinion" or "I" when it comes to observations of species I do not host...I lay no claim to knowing all about every species---but I do offer what I find to be "my opinion" based on information a member provides--- and if that is read as any thing other than that...well, shame on that person.

 

[Turtlepete]

Tell me what exactly I accused anyone of? Be specific.

Would be my pleasure. You accused someone much more knowledgable on the subject then you of having underweight turtles, of caring for cuora wrong, because they need a "dry-out" time (?); basically being wrong about a subject that you have zero knowledge nor real experience about.
Trying to stay on topic, Ben's post (or, one of the pictures), as I understand it, was to show a case of over-eating causing shell flaring in C. picturata. You tossed that information aside and decided based on your inexperience that "the picture showed to you clearly" that the turtle wasn't allowed a "dry-out" time, or something along those lines. If your wondering, thats where the accusations come from that your giving advice lacking a proper knowledge base.
I see you've created your own thread to call someone else a snarky coward (that person is making a "snarky coward" T-shirt), which, in essence, is cowardly in itself. But, you've requested this to be deleted, as you didn't appreciate the backfire that accompanied your own snarky replies.

Sorry if my writing is to wordy and crappy.

Now, out of sheer curiosity, I request you explain to me, who stooped where? Did Tom, or I, "show their true face"? You quoted a piece of my post, yet the second paragraph seems to be addressing Tom. Either way, what true face did you find? And certainly never let that discovery fall to the wayside, as you have found a crucial piece of evidence about Tom's (or mine?) true face. (He's actually Batman.)

 

[lismar79]

Ok, even though I am affraid to be jumped here.....
This is a bit disturbing. I come on here to soak up any info I can get on how to make life better for the creatures in my care. I am not an expert, I have learned everything I know from many of you. I repeat this info to others in hopes of improving their care as well when I see the same info given over and over agian (aka the coil bulb debate). My need to post here is because even though I'm on here daily, I don't count myself as a member of the "group" ( not meant in any way other than that I feel that I am not partial in anyway to one or another member) so I am only swayed by what seems to be logical by occurance not by member. That being said- new people are probably reading this and wondering what kind of place this is..... I have the highest esteam for many of you and I am hoping that any one reading this takes away what passion we ALL have, despite our stance on certain issues, & that is all in the name of improved care of our wonderful tortoises and turtles. Thanks,
Lisa
Ps. I am so apologizing for the spelling errors but I have seemed to have turned off my spell check & have no clue how

 

[Tom]

Lisa, you are one of the group now, like it or not.

We have one of these go 'rounds every few months. Its pretty unavoidable with the wide variety of personalities and sheer number of members on this great forum. Most of us avoid making it personal, keep the insults suppressed, and try to debate the issue at hand. These things are never fun, but they seem to be a necessary part of the experience. It helps all of us learn about each other, and most of the time useful information can be found, even for new people, by reading through this debate. I despise the negativity, but I do like the knowledge that usually comes out of this process. This one too will blow over, and my hope is that people will gain insight into which info to listen too and who is making baseless claims.

Overall, this thread has reminded me personally to be mindful of how I address people. My primary reason for posting info to a noob is to help their tortoise. I defeat my own purpose if I offend them. So there is at least one bit of good that has come from this most recent exchange.

 

[Turtlepete]

My primary reason for posting info to a noob is to help their tortoise. I defeat my own purpose if I offend them. So there is at least one bit of good that has come from this most recent exchange.

I had thought the original purpose of this thread was to discuss exactly that, how people treat "noobs" that aren't doing it right. I agree with you there, and that is what I was trying to say originally; I don't think people get anywhere as far as being "helpful" to a new owner's tortoise if they insult them and chase them away before they learn anything. It seems to often that it just ends up, "your doing it all wrong, your tortoise will die, jump off a cliff". :/.

 

[Tom]

I had thought the original purpose of this thread was to discuss exactly that, how people treat "noobs" that aren't doing it right. I agree with you there, and that is what I was trying to say originally; I don't think people get anywhere as far as being "helpful" to a new owner's tortoise if they insult them and chase them away before they learn anything. It seems to often that it just ends up, "your doing it all wrong, your tortoise will die, jump off a cliff". :/.

I think you are right in your assessment.

@Alaskamike ? Sound right?

 

[AmRoKo]

It's Brutal Bloody Bash Night in this thread!

...... Anyways, I have found this thread/subject to be a plethora of information. Very thought provoking by what everyone has said. I don't really have anything to add, I just am enjoying reading all the info being put out here by everyone. You are all very knowledgeable and interesting to read/learn from.

 

[G-stars]

I've been sitting back and watching this one. I've been on this forum for a few months now and I have been keeping an eye on this thread since it started. I don't find anyone on here rude and I have learned a lot of what to do and what not to do from both experienced and new owners. We are all here to learn from each other and share our opinions. The outcome is that everyone has different opinions and we don't always agree on things and personalities do collide. I agree that if bad advice is given it should be corrected. The manner of how this happens should always be in a helpful manner. Hopefully we can all just get along again and get back to why we are here for to love our tortoises!!!


— Gus

 

[ascott]

But, you've requested this to be deleted, as you didn't appreciate the backfire that accompanied your own snarky replies.

You are completely wrong here.....I did not ask for anything to be deleted...just the opposite....I requested that my post be put up ....but was told that it was removed and put in the delete spot because the mods were deciding on what to do with it....so get your tall tales straight.....

You accused someone much more knowledgable on the subject then you of having underweight turtles,

Again....you are incorrect here.....I made and said from what "I" looked at in the pic that the animal did not appear fat but more like underweight....take that as an accusation if you would like...I really have no concern about your opinion....truly, I don't.

I also would love for you to explain to me....how you figure a turtle or a tortoise has shell deformity, based on the animal being overfed/overweight, yet to look at the animal there is no apparent weight issue....also explain to me how it is that there are a variety of tortoise that have flared shells and are not overfed or overweight...it is a common condition--how about you get your facts straight....

Go to post 95, you will see that the response directed to Tom had everything to do with some deleted post, one of which he clearly directed at me.....also, none of which I requested to be deleted....so speak to the mods if you are so very interested in me....you on the other hand are of no interest to me....have a great night. You are now dismissed from any further conversation with me--well, any that I will reply to----so continue on with your tall tales....

 

[tglazie]

Thanks, Tom. I don't know, I've kept tortoises for years and years, and a wide variety of tortoises at that. I've seen more than most, I recon. I generally consider myself a Testudo specialist (margies in particular), but I've kept sulcatas, leopards, redfoots, Bell's Hingebacks, as well as my fair share of turtle species. And I've made a lot of mistakes, mistakes that were thankfully minimized by my luck of location.

As for folks on this forum being hostile, I think this is a bit of an over exaggeration. I mean, this isn't a youtube or yahoo comments section; I've never had the misfortune of making a reasonable comment only to be bombarded by some undeserved obscenity given as response within ten minutes by some mindless troll with too much time on his hands. I mean, when I post on this forum, I never expect a fight, and I tend to think of myself as a very reasonable person, so whenever I do disagree with someone, I tend to see myself as being rather conciliatory, clearly defining my position and personal experience concerning the topic at hand, given that I see this forum largely as a means of imparting personal experience, such being the primary and most useful means of conveying information regarding our carpacial comrades. Man, that was a long sentence. I thought of breaking it up, but I think the point flows with relative ease.

Yes, it is true that one word or one sentence responses to the queries of new people are not helpful and could certainly be construed as rude. In this regard, I'm with Mike in saying, "C'mon, guys, keeping tortoises involves the acquisition of knowledge that is hardly intuitive. Newbies deserve information and explanation, not a single sentence, lest that sentence be an adendum to another's explanation or a question." I mean, there's nothing "common sense" concerning the notion that keeping a tortoise well hydrated and ensuring it has access to a humid environment, especially when there is over three decades worth of misinformation arguing that humidity causes all manner of potential illnesses and maladies. Every reference from those early TFH books to those "new and improved" care guides by the Carapace Press argued that someone keeping tortoises in Florida would have greater difficulty maintaining sulcatas than someone in Arizona, something that those of us with experience know to be the rough equivalent of whistling dixie from one's behind.

Ultimately, all I'm saying is that we're all in the same boat here, we're all here for the same reason. We all enjoy tortoises. Now, I understand Mike's position that newbies should be given greater reassurance. I remember when I was new to keeping tortoises. I didn't know a damn thing about them, and I was always worried about every little aspect of their husbandry. But I'll tell you this, I was never discouraged by anyone who told me I was doing something wrong. In this respect, I don't feel that anyone reading this forum would be discouraged from keeping tortoises. If you really love your tortoise, and if you are drawn to caring for these animals, then there is nothing else like it, and you will never be satisfied until you get to see and care for one every morning when you wake. I remember when I first read that feeding a tortoises a staple diet of supermarket produce was wrong. I was angry, partly in denial, but very angry that everything I had read up until that point had told me otherwise. I mean, I always felt that TFH books arguing that feeding torts cheese and bread was incredibly idiotic, and to this day, I'm glad I was never so naive as to follow this monstrously foolish advice, but those of us who have been doing this for a long time probably remember those books. We certainly remember the many mistakes we made. And I can tell you that when I was a boy with an adult Greek tortoise roaming a tortoise table that took up a three by four corner in his bedroom, feeding Graecus anything other than six or seven varieties of leafy greens was the furthest thing from my mind. Ensuring he had a moisture rich substrate didn't even occur to me. I'm lucky he was a tough SOB, because I certainly wasn't making life any easier for him.

But once I got older, I started gaining experience. I set up grazing areas and a greenhouse. I started raising baby marginated tortoises into adults. I got a baby sulcata. I started babysitting and fostering all manner of tortoises. At one point, I had over thirty animals in my care, back when I was in high school with no girlfriend, no car, and no bad habits to distract me, back when I dreamed of becoming a veterinarian. I would cruise about herp shows, scowling at vendors selling pyramided leopards and sulcatas, praising anyone with a smoothly grown tortoise and sharing a few words of trash talk about all the other vendors with their ugly animals and underhanded, clumsy attempts to pass off their inferior stock. I understand the urge to tell these folks that they're screwing up, I really do. I was a totally obnoxious know it all who would never think twice about telling some pet shop staffer that they were caring for their animals improperly. And I didn't restrict my criticism to the chelonian cages.

Ultimately, this phase came crashing to an end when I went to college out of state. For the first time in my life, I was living on my own, in some smelly dorm room, far from nature, far from my tortoises. I questioned everything about myself. And that included my pursuit of a biology degree. I put up polaroids of Graecus, Jerry, Gino, Little Gino, Lady Gino, as well as many of the young sulcatas I had adopted at the time, so that I might keep them in my mind. My roommate tore them all down and threw them into the trash to spite me for making the room "uncool," which ended in me knocking out two of his teeth with my fist and my reassignment to another room. I was lonely as a freshman, especially at Emory University, a snob factory that really was not right for me for more reasons than I care to get into. But I longed for the return trips home so that I could check on my torts.

My love affair with the tortoise was really thrown into a tailspin though, after that first winter. My father, God rest him, loved tortoises. He is the one who got me interested in them in the first place, given his having kept California Desert tortoises back in the sixties. But my father and I had very different ideas and philosophies concerning tortoises, and unfortunately, my father's philosophy resulted in the death of four of our adopted sulcatas. Basically, my old man saw a leopard at PetCo, and she was apparently so beautiful that he had to have her. Having not prepared a quarantine enclosure, he decided to just introduce her to the adopted juvenile sulcata colony. Thankfully, everyone else was in separate enclosures. My father worsened this situation, given that he felt no tortoise should sleep alone in order to prevent "loneliness." So, he would house this leopard with one sulcata, then another, then another overnight, where they were all in close quarters. Ultimately, all of these tortoises succumbed to a severe respiratory illness. My father didn't catch this in time, and by the time he took them in for veterinary care, their conditions were too far along. Three sulcatas and one female leopard, all dead of complications from a respiratory illness. By the time I got home, these tortoises were all well into the final stages. My Christmas break was shadowed by the dark specter of giving these poor tortoises end of life care. My relationship with my father was severely strained. I called him stupid for thinking that the tortoises needed friends, that he was so irresponsible as to introduce an animal into the group without a proper quarantine period. I openly questioned his competence in keeping these animals, many times suggesting that I would rather see them all gone than see his incompetence cause one more death.

I dealt with this very badly. You must understand, my father, even in the face of this monumental failure, refused to acknowledge that he had done anything wrong. Ultimately, I found it easier to simply divorce myself from the tortoises than face the prospect of arguing with my father over the subject anytime we were in the same room. It was easier than I thought it would be. Out of sight really does translate as out of mind. I started burying myself in my studies at school, started spending more and more time away from the home. Then my old man had a stroke.

I returned home to help stabilize the family finances, but I continued to deal with this situation badly. I resented having to return home to care for my ailing father, that I was missing out on my experience of independence to ensure that my parents remained fiscally solvent. But I did it, out of obligation. Unfortunately, the tortoises, through no fault of their own, came to be the target of this resentment. I adopted out as many as I could, keeping Gino, Little Gino, Lady Gino, Graecus, and Jerry.

Despite my initial resentment, however, as the years passed, I came to accept my new role. It was never like it was, especially since my father was now mentally disabled, but things were looking up. Then, Jerry contracted an illness, a spinal wasting disease, and just like that, my biggest and only surviving sulcata, suffered a long and slow death, finally passing in the fall of 2011. Two months later, my father also passed.

After all of this tragedy and tribulation, I learned what was really important. I've since expanded my group of margies, acquiring two more adult females. This year, I've added five more juvenile margies to fill out the future group. I've even entertained the idea of getting another sulcata, though maybe I'm talking crazy. All I know is that in my life, I've screwed up a lot, more than most of the new people here ever will. Yes, I deeply regret these mistakes, and I think about them all the time. But at the same time, I feel that one can't live a life of regrets. The oncoming train of death doesn't offer such luxury. All we can do is our best. But my best is clearly not the standard here.

There is so much more information now than there has ever been about these creatures, though even now, we've only really scratched the surface. Despite this, I choose to remain hopeful. Those of us who have been at this for a while, every one of us has lost, some of us big time. But when I read this forum, I am filled with hope and optimism, which doesn't happen to a cynic like me, I can tell you. I don't air my political beliefs on this forum, given that I feel it inappropriate, but all of my friends regard me as a political pessimist, through and through. But when I see this forum for the fountain of information that it truly is, for the invaluable resource that provides countless tortoise keepers expert advice on the care and maintenance of their charges, I can only think how lucky we all are to be here, and how devastated I would be at the loss of this priceless community. For me, if the price of admission is having to stomach a few snarky comments, it is a price I will gladly pay. A little advice for the newbies, don't be discouraged by the tone in which information reaches your mind. Many of the members on here have valuable insights into the keeping of these animals. Absorb as much information as possible, as keeping tortoises isn't simple and requires a great deal of work, especially at first. But let me say, the work you put in, if you truly love these animals as I and the overwhelming majority of folks on this forum do, will pay over a thousand fold. Those of us who have experienced the joy of spending a spring afternoon leisurely watching these animals go about their routine can tell you that there's nothing better.

T.G.

 

[G-stars]

T.G. That left me speechless. Much respect to you.


— Gus

 

[Alaskamike]

This thread started out of a newish member of this forum (me,

I think you are right in your assessment.

@Alaskamike ? Sound right?

Yes .... That's it

There were two issues - one the way instruction is delivered and the second , the proper interpretation from photos of the health of a tortoise.

In some ways these are related.

Both issues seem to hit some hot buttons, stir passions and provoke thought. It is clear there are many folks here with decades of experience and a love for our torts.

And when I look at the intro posts as well as those of seasoned keepers the concern and care to provide the best we can shines through.

I am glad so many care enough to create care sheets, do research
, promote health and proper environments. Even Disagreement in the details shows thought and effort. I learn everyday.

Tortoise keeping is an art , science and passion. I for one am thankful for this forum to discuss and learn more and share it all
Mike

 

[lisa127]

Lisa, you are one of the group now, like it or not.

We have one of these go 'rounds every few months. Its pretty unavoidable with the wide variety of personalities and sheer number of members on this great forum. Most of us avoid making it personal, keep the insults suppressed, and try to debate the issue at hand. These things are never fun, but they seem to be a necessary part of the experience. It helps all of us learn about each other, and most of the time useful information can be found, even for new people, by reading through this debate. I despise the negativity, but I do like the knowledge that usually comes out of this process. This one too will blow over, and my hope is that people will gain insight into which info to listen too and who is making baseless claims.

Overall, this thread has reminded me personally to be mindful of how I address people. My primary reason for posting info to a noob is to help their tortoise. I defeat my own purpose if I offend them. So there is at least one bit of good that has come from this most recent exchange.

Honestly, I have found TF to be one of the friendliest and least hostile forums I have ever belonged to. I enjoy it here for that reason.

 

[leigti]

Honestly, I have found TF to be one of the friendliest and least hostile forums I have ever belonged to. I enjoy it here for that reason.

I must agree with Lisa even with all the stuff that came down in this and the separated out thread. Compared to almost any other forum I have ever seen on many topic this form is the most respectful overall. I don't feel like part of "the group" either but that's okay. I will continue to read and learn.

 

[Anthony P]

You are completely wrong here.....I did not ask for anything to be deleted...just the opposite....I requested that my post be put up ....but was told that it was removed and put in the delete spot because the mods were deciding on what to do with it....so get your tall tales straight.....



Again....you are incorrect here.....I made and said from what "I" looked at in the pic that the animal did not appear fat but more like underweight....take that as an accusation if you would like...I really have no concern about your opinion....truly, I don't.

I also would love for you to explain to me....how you figure a turtle or a tortoise has shell deformity, based on the animal being overfed/overweight, yet to look at the animal there is no apparent weight issue....also explain to me how it is that there are a variety of tortoise that have flared shells and are not overfed or overweight...it is a common condition--how about you get your facts straight....

A turtle can become over or underweight extremely quickly. The fact that there aren't globs of fatty tissue protruding from the shell of that picturata does not mean the shell curling is not correlated to overfeeding. I have an underweight Geoemyda spengleri with flared marginals that are left over from a one month period of overfeeding as a neonate. That's what Ben is eluding to.

You give your opinion that overfeeding is not the cause in that picturata, but you bring nothing constructive to the discussion. What is the issue, in your opinion? Help the OP by giving your two cents on the issue. If you give your opinion regarding how an accomplished turtle person like Ben is wrong, you better have better ground to stand on than you've shown.

This is concerning for many reasons. I've watched this thread for days without commenting, because I didn't want to get involved. However, I think this is an important moment to mention that these forum chats aren't just a chance to throw out ideas and talk without consequences. Once in a while, we are all lucky enough to have someone like Ben come around to share their insight. Whether you meant to or not, your posts seemed like they were a bit unappreciative. Shame on me, I guess.

We should all keep in mind that there are some talented, experienced, and generous people here who are willing to take time out of their busy day to share their knowledge. My fear is that we may mis out on insight from people who know what they'e talking about, because some unappreciative member wants to dispute what they are trying to share with us.

 

[wellington]

Just a warning. Please be respectful and on topic when posting.

 

[ascott]

The fact that there aren't globs of fatty tissue protruding from the shell of that picturata does not mean the shell curling is not correlated to overfeeding.

Noted here, your opinion.

You give your opinion that overfeeding is not the cause in that picturata, but you bring nothing constructive to the discussion. What is the issue, in your opinion? Help the OP by giving your two cents on the issue.

Actually, I did offer my opinion, that the animal in question (the tortoise to begin with in the thread) had shell issue as a result of the previous injury and went onto say that restricting food likely would not offer correction, but could offer other health issues due to this being a growing tortoise....then the other member (Benjamin) dropped in with a pic of a turtle he claimed had flares due to over feeding/eating---I then made an observation that the turtle did not appear to be overweight and that flaring is not uncommon....now, tell me where this was any attack--as I have been accused of....

This is concerning for many reasons. I've watched this thread for days without commenting, because I didn't want to get involved. However, I think this is an important moment to mention that these forum chats aren't just a chance to throw out ideas and talk without consequences.

Actually, Forums are a prime place to offer discussions and to share ideas with one another--sharing an idea or an opinion is exactly what the open Forum is for....I never have, nor will I ever say that I am all knowing (although some would like to lead you to believe they are) that anything I share is FACT that anything I share is exact science...actually, I am the one that says we don't know enough, that I am offering what "I" would do if it were "ME"...I never tell someone what they are doing is dead wrong....I never lash people for their lack of knowledge (as a few others do)...I offer up what I see, what I observe...now if those are twisted into some other animal....then shame on that person....not me.

We should all keep in mind that there are some talented, experienced, and generous people here who are willing to take time out of their busy day to share their knowledge.

A bit of arrogance here....I believe that everyone has a life, everyone is busy with that life, everyones day is as important as the next--so, when I come to this forum--I come here to participate in what may be going on---not feeling as though I am taking the time out of my busy day to bless someone with my flowing gobs of knowledge...come on now, seriously is this what you see? Wow.

If you re read the posts I participated in, you would see what was my opinion about the turtle....I will not rehash that here. With regards to

your posts seemed like they were a bit unappreciative.

I apparently don't have the bowing down smiley that you do? Must have been an oversight on my part...apology. If you have not noticed by now, I am not one of the masses that follow the loud....I am not frequently impressed with the garb that the "voted popular" are spewing.......I don't fold I don't bow and I certainly don't kiss tukhus based on some of the popular guidelines....for this I do not apologize nor will I....

Benjamin, if for some reason my observation has struck some negative cord with you---that was not my intention, but that is it.

I do have to share one more thing here...there is this awesome option on the Forum that I must have looked over, it is called the Ignore option....I find that it has made my day much more pleasant when on the forum....hey, have a great day...