"I see pyramiding"

[wellington]

I can agree Heather, more then one way of approaching, will hopefully get the correct info to everyone. I don't see it as tooting our own horn though. I don't see it as being righteous. I see it as only spreading the correct info that we have learned ourselves from this forum. What I don't understand, are the newbies that get offended. We have no clue when they post a pic of a pyramided tortoise that they actually know the proper way of raising them. I would bet most of them think they know, but are doing it the wrong way. Newbies need to understand, when they join a forum, we know nothing about them. However, if they have lurked on here at all, they can learn a lot about us. I believe first and foremost, concern for the tortoise comes first, himans feelings second. I also agree that it should be done politely, but at the first chance you get. Unfortunately, there is another forum, most of us probably know about. If left to them to educate people, well, lets just say, they educate no one, poo poo bad husbandry and tortoises would not be growing smooth.

 

[Tom]

I don't quite understand the purpose or point of this question, sorry Tom.

The purpose and point was to gain insight into why Mike is here on this forum. His answer would direct the course of this conversation. I'm trying to understand where he's coming from and what is motivating him.

 

[Judy@SYR]

Unfortunately, I don't get to participate here much (hardly at all, which makes me sad), but I read just about everything. I've been in those shoes Mike is talking about, I think.

When I got my Indian star and posted some pictures of her, one person jumped into the thread and said it was a very unhealthy tortoise with beak and leg problems in addition to pyramiding. That's all they said. I specifically asked for clarification on WHY they thought the tortoise looked unhealthy and what I should be doing to help her, and never got a reply back.

THAT is not helpful. "Wow, that's a sick tortoise!" Not helpful without some real effort put into explaining why they think so and what can be done to rectify the situation. If you're not willing to help, then what good is it to declare an animal is looking poorly? It's really hard on a new member to the forum to get criticized about their care (or lack of care) without any constructive words of wisdom to help ease the sting.

 

[Abdulla6169]

I think its OK... Just not a "Look your tort is unhealthy, like eewww"! I think owners want to know that the tortoise may have slight pyramiding, and they can bump the humidity. Even though some new members may say: "look, pyramiding", I think its better to forgive, I don't think they mean harm.

 

[wellington]

Unfortunately, I don't get to participate here much (hardly at all, which makes me sad), but I read just about everything. I've been in those shoes Mike is talking about, I think.

When I got my Indian star and posted some pictures of her, one person jumped into the thread and said it was a very unhealthy tortoise with beak and leg problems in addition to pyramiding. That's all they said. I specifically asked for clarification on WHY they thought the tortoise looked unhealthy and what I should be doing to help her, and never got a reply back.

THAT is not helpful. "Wow, that's a sick tortoise!" Not helpful without some real effort put into explaining why they think so and what can be done to rectify the situation. If you're not willing to help, then what good is it to declare an animal is looking poorly? It's really hard on a new member to the forum to get criticized about their care (or lack of care) without any constructive words of wisdom to help ease the sting.

I totally agree. I don't think it is helpful at all. Same as I don't like the reposted ads. The op will say how awful the tort is being taken care of, but they do nothing to contact the owner and offer help. When you see an animal, any animal being taken care of poorly, one should always step in and offer advice/help. We are their only voice. If this was all that Mike had posted, I thnk we all would agree. It's really the second half of his post that I don't agree with.

 

[Yvonne G]

The continual love affair with pyramiding is also irritating to me. We have become so stuck on the fact that tortoises should be growing smoothly that we just seem to harp on it all the time. I'm very proud of the fact that my SA leopard tortoises are growing smoothly and quite embarrassed that my male looks like a pine cone.

There's absolutely no reason for me to be embarrassed of the way my male leopard tortoise looks, or the way some of my YF tortoises look because I raised them according to the rules of the day. I did the best I could with the info I had to go with. If I raised a bumpy baby today, THEN I should be ashamed.

So I'm not immune to the pyramiding thing either. I used to say, "It's just cosmetic - don't worry about it."

 

[N2TORTS]

Good thread ....and a lot of honest answers .....Now how about this one -
How would all this humidity "info" take into account on the Mojave Desert Tortoise?
In a single day in the Mojave, the climate (weather patterns for a particular region or habitat) is often very extreme, reaching hot temperatures of 50°C (120°F) and even hotter in the summer and often much cooler when the sun goes down (outside of the city - where there is no concrete or asphalt to hold the heat). In the winter, the temperature often stays below freezing at night but warms up to a comparatively comfortable temperature in the day. Because of these extremes, it is full of organisms with unique adaptations many people don't even realize exist!
Now for our tortoise friends this is can be an intriguing question regarding high humidity while young - to establish smooth carapace growth.
The Mojave averages less than 12cm (5 inches) of precipitation (rain and snow) a year with an average of 1.3 inches. The relative humidity levels range from about 55 percent at night and 32 percent at day during winter months, from December through February, to as low as 25 percent at night and 10 percent at day during summer months, in June and July
Taking into account when the tortoises are born in the wild (spring/early summer) it also happens to be the driest time of the year.


Life as we know it can not exist without water. So how does the desert tortoise do it? <~~~~some fun "sarcasm" with a smooth carapace.

I see The OP's point of view to the full extent and agree with some of his comments , on the other note- yes I have through the years learned that humidity does and will play an important role on captive bred tortoises concerning carapace growth.

 

[Alaskamike]

Great interaction I think some may have missed my point about " stand alone" comments on pyramiding.

I have seen exactly this comment.
" I see pyramiding"
On a thread - more than one. With no suggestions as to ways to minimize , help or understand it. No further words at all. It was these posts that got me going.

Also, when someone makes the comment about pyramiding on a posted picture , gives advise and links to correct / minimize this , I also see 4 or 5 other people chime in about it. Is this really necessary ?

It almost feels like a pile up - you know the guy is already tackled so let's get the rest of the team on top of him so he is really down for the count.

I'm NOT saying getting good healthy husbandry info to tortoise keepers is wrong. Or even that we should coddle people Just use a bit of common sense and be sure your motivation is to be helpful.

 

[Abdulla6169]

Great interaction I think some may have missed my point about " stand alone" comments on pyramiding.

I have seen exactly this comment.
" I see pyramiding"
On a thread - more than one. With no suggestions as to ways to minimize , help or understand it. No further words at all. It was these posts that got me going.

Also, when someone makes the comment about pyramiding on a posted picture , gives advise and links to correct / minimize this , I also see 4 or 5 other people chime in about it. Is this really necessary ?

It almost feels like a pile up - you know the guy is already tackled so let's get the rest of the team on top of him so he is really down for the count.

I'm NOT saying getting good healthy husbandry info to tortoise keepers is wrong. Or even that we should coddle people Just use a bit of common sense and be sure your motivation is to be helpful.

I agree with the above. I just think newbies do it unknowingly, think they're trying to help... We've all been newbies in the forum once.

 

[wellington]

Great interaction I think some may have missed my point about " stand alone" comments on pyramiding.

I have seen exactly this comment.
" I see pyramiding"
On a thread - more than one. With no suggestions as to ways to minimize , help or understand it. No further words at all. It was these posts that got me going.

Also, when someone makes the comment about pyramiding on a posted picture , gives advise and links to correct / minimize this , I also see 4 or 5 other people chime in about it. Is this really necessary ?

It almost feels like a pile up - you know the guy is already tackled so let's get the rest of the team on top of him so he is really down for the count.

I'm NOT saying getting good healthy husbandry info to tortoise keepers is wrong. Or even that we should coddle people Just use a bit of common sense and be sure your motivation is to be helpful.

I totally agree with you on the one liners. The second half of your original thread I don't.
As far as the pile up, for me, if I have a thread going for advice and I get 4-5 responses from members that I don't really know anything about or more importantly are newbies, I will not be paying much attention to the responses, but will be waiting for someone that I know has had a lot more experience or someone that has been a forum member for more then a few months.

 

[Jodie]

I like the pile up. If one person tells me something it is easy to disregard, but if multiple people are saying the same thing, i have confidence it is correct. It is hard to be a newbie here. I admit i felt attacked when i first joined once. It was /is very important to me that i get the best info, so i stayed. Written conversations are always hard because you have no other communication cues to interpret meaning. I think we can be careful in our wording. It doesn't help the torts, if we offend someone and they leave any more than sugar coating things. Just my 2 cents, for what it's worth.

 

[Neal]

I can agree with you about the initial pyramiding comments and the way it comes across.

I've made it a personal point of mine not to comment on pyramiding or dry/humid husbandry unless they ask. I don't know what they already know and I do feel it is rude to assume they don't know anything.

So, when a newbie posts a photo of a small Leopard with pyramiding I might say something like, "cute little tort. How are you raising him? "
This puts the ball in their court to ask for advice or share what they know.
Some replies come back explaining that they use humidity now...etc. Some replies come back explaining they are still seeking advice. At that point I know my advice is welcome and will share the humid aspect of raising them while still touching on other areas of proper husbandry.

I like your approach Heather, by finding out the details first. Not because it's the nicer way to go about it but because in most cases one cannot tell how a tortoise is raised by the appearance of its shell alone. Bear in mind that I am not talking about an extreme case of pyramiding, but the type we more often see where it is more subtle. There is a big difference between the two and I certainly would support a more aggressive approach in those extreme cases, but my interpretation of the OP's frustration comes from those instances where the pyramiding does not appear to be so severe.

I think a discussion based approach when we see someone post with an apparently pyramiding tortoise is more effective because pyramiding in and of itself does not indicate how a tortoise was raised and does not provide any indication of the tortoises health (unless it's severe), in my opinion. Some tortoises will pyramid in high humid environments and some tortoises will grow smooth in dry environments. And as mentioned already, pyramiding has been observed in wild tortoises, so I'm always a little concerned when people suggest that a tortoise SHOULD BE completely smooth...but perhaps my picture of a completely smooth tortoise is different from the person who said it.

To explain myself further, I have seen many cases where a young tortoise appears to be pyramiding but as it grows larger the shell appears to be completely smooth. If "good" husbandry is in place, I don't think comments such as "your tortoise is starting to pyramid" or the like are appropriate or serve any purpose. And how could someone know that someone else is practicing good husbandry unless the details are provided? So for these reasons, unless something is obviously not good, I think a more paced, discussion based approach is more effective and more beneficial for the community since these discussions are posted for the public to see as apposed to the single lined, helpless comments.

I understand, different strokes for different folks, exceptions have to be made and like Tom suggested, pyramiding is different for everyone and what some consider "normal" or "severe" might not be for others, so I hope I'm not splitting hairs here or getting off topic. I'm just offering my thoughts on the matter here.

 

[Yvonne G]

Regarding what JD referred to, I'm asking @ascott to tell us what it's like in the desert right now. Are you having the monsoon season like the babies in Africa are hatching into? September is the month that desert tortoise and Texas tortoise eggs hatch, so you folks living in the California/Arizona/Texas deserts, is it raining for your hatchlings?

 

[Yvonne G]

I agree. I hate that an experienced tort keeper/member gives a good and correct/helpful answer, then all these other people have to jump in with more or less the same info. I feel if the question has been answered then no other response is required. EW-w-w-w-w Your tortoise is pyramided. UGH!!

 

[Magilla504]

I love to read everyone's thoughts on this. The thing to remember is that people will better learn through positive interactions. Making passive aggressive or rude comments does not benefit anyone and especially not the tort! If made uncomfortable, the individual may become turned off to advice. It may only take one negative person to ruin the reputation of all the great people on this forum.

 

[N2TORTS]

Regarding what JD referred to, I'm asking @ascott to tell us what it's like in the desert right now. Are you having the monsoon season like the babies in Africa are hatching into? September is the month that desert tortoise and Texas tortoise eggs hatch, so you folks living in the California/Arizona/Texas deserts, is it raining for your hatchlings?

Not to get off the Pyramid thread ......but still inline with wild smooth specimens

The desert tortoise is able to live where ground temperatures may exceed 140 degrees F because of its ability to dig underground burrows three to six feet deep to escape the heat of summer and the cold of winter. It is one of the most elusive inhabitants of the desert, spending up to 98% of its time underground. Desert tortoises spend November through February in a torpid or dormant state in their underground burrows.
Their most active time is in the spring when they will forage for food. During the hottest, driest periods of the year, these tortoises conserve the water already stored in their bodies. This is especially important in the hot, dry Mojave Desert summers.
Much of the tortoise’s water intake comes from moisture in the grasses and wildflowers they consume in the spring. To get the most out of the rain that falls so infrequently in their habitat, desert tortoises dig basins in the soil to catch rainwater. The tortoises always remember where these basins are, and may be found waiting by them when rain appears imminent. But this still makes one wonder where the humidity would be around at a constant while young for smooth carapace growth.
Reproduction
Females do not breed until they are 15 to 20 years old. When hatchlings emerge from eggs they are approximately 2 inches long. Only about 2 percent of hatchlings survive to become adults.
Mating Season: Late summer to early fall
Gestation: 8-10 months
Clutch size: 4-6 eggs
and some fun fact.....Adult desert tortoises can survive a year or more without access to water!
http://blogs.sandiegozoo.org/2009/04/29/desert-tortoise-team/

I have had this guy since 1973

 

[Abdulla6169]

Not to get off the Pyramid thread ......but still inline with wild smooth specimens

The desert tortoise is able to live where ground temperatures may exceed 140 degrees F because of its ability to dig underground burrows three to six feet deep to escape the heat of summer and the cold of winter. It is one of the most elusive inhabitants of the desert, spending up to 98% of its time underground. Desert tortoises spend November through February in a torpid or dormant state in their underground burrows.
Their most active time is in the spring when they will forage for food. During the hottest, driest periods of the year, these tortoises conserve the water already stored in their bodies. This is especially important in the hot, dry Mojave Desert summers.
Much of the tortoise’s water intake comes from moisture in the grasses and wildflowers they consume in the spring. To get the most out of the rain that falls so infrequently in their habitat, desert tortoises dig basins in the soil to catch rainwater. The tortoises always remember where these basins are, and may be found waiting by them when rain appears imminent. But this still makes one wonder where the humidity would be around at a constant while young for smooth carapace growth.
Reproduction
Females do not breed until they are 15 to 20 years old. When hatchlings emerge from eggs they are approximately 2 inches long. Only about 2 percent of hatchlings survive to become adults.
Mating Season: Late summer to early fall
Gestation: 8-10 months
Clutch size: 4-6 eggs
and some fun fact.....Adult desert tortoises can survive a year or more without access to water!
http://blogs.sandiegozoo.org/2009/04/29/desert-tortoise-team/

*Gasp* Thats some resilient animal!

 

[aztortoisegal]

I'm a relatively new tortoise mom, and cannot believe all the things I assumed to be proper care from diet, housing, humidity, etc. I don't consider myself an idiot, but I don't think it's too unreasonable to assume a creature originally from hot dry climates would appreciate the same environment from their human handlers. Or that water wasn't a necessity. Or that a pen ten times as large as the tort was plenty of room for him.

I'm so glad I found this forum and am learning the TRUTH about what to do to make him healthy and thrive, and welcome ANY suggestions or comments that may be contrary to what I'm exhibiting as "the right way". I know there are plenty of personalities out there that can't appear to be anything but right, an expert, etc., and that's ok. That's how it is on any forum. I happen to be a certified expert professional master of my craft for what I do for a living, and see those with much less experience try to be authoritative on forums I'm a member of. Sometimes it's funny, sometimes it's just obnoxious, but one thing that rings true......if you aren't courteous and helpful whenever possible, within reason, you just drive people off that genuinely want help and can be taught, with the right attitude and mannerisms.

 

[aztortoisegal]

Like, where in the wild does a tortoise have access to a shallow dish of water? Right?? Now I know they dig depressions to catch water, and they conserve what they do manage to get. Shallow dish of water always in my pen, and a good spray down couple times a day, with a constantly damp burrow.

 

[aztortoisegal]

Ok, one more and I'm done. I feel so bad for a friends' pair of tortoises now that I know what I should be doing. They're big, about two feet long, share a burrow, one gets bullied, they never get water EVER, and you can walk the length of their enclosure in about ten steps. Do they look unhealthy or uncared for? I don't think so, but I'm no expert...yet. Thank you all who contribute so generously and are helping people like me raise a happy tortoise.