pyramiding

[Tom]

What exactly do you mean by Perfectly "legit" ?.....

Because your animals pyramided with calcium and sunshine that means nothing. How do you know how much calcium the animals where getting? did you measure it?, how much vit D3 from sunshine? was it sunny all the time? did u have them out exactly for the same amount of tim? How do you know if they weren't calcium and vit d deficien? Did you do any blood tests?if so what did you measure and at what intervals? How big of a group did you use? Over what period of time? Maybe you didn't follow them long enough? did you have a control group? What was the humidity every day? what was it at different times of the day?where any of them ill? maybe they were stressed out from not being "overfed." How do you define and quantify pyramiding?Did you measure in millimeters or just looked at it?. How much pyramiding occurred and over what period of time?. which periods showed more pyramiding. anyone can go on and on about this, which was my original point, there are too many confounding factors that looking at blood levels of vit d and bone density scans can give us something objective and irrefutable.
[/quote]

Legitimate. Valid. Holding up to the scrutiny of the scientific community. Clear enough?

Those are a whole bunch of ridiculous inflammatory questions. They don't deserve a response.

You need to come back to the real world where regular people have tortoises as pets and share rational, real world observations. A normal, healthy tortoise who is out in the Southern CA sun several hours almost every day should certainly be making enough D3 for the purposes of our discussion. The exact amount produced and measured by the hour is not relevant.

You are still dodging the issue. If you want to be taken seriously you need to explain how all of my observations and the same observations of many others are wrong.

BTW, who are you? What species do you keep and how many? How many decades of practical, real world experience do you have to back up what you are saying?

If we are all so wrong and off base, then surely you must have the CORRECT answer to this enigma. Please enlighten us. All I hear you saying is that we are wrong and jumping to conclusions. Logically, if you know that we are wrong, then you must also know what is right, right? You keep saying that we don't have the scientific basis to be making these claims, but I'm not hearing any scientific facts to back up yours.

It is absurd and foolish to just blatantly disregard decades of hands on experience. All the science in the world can't be substituted for years of professional hands on work. Remember the top scientists of the world used to think the world was flat and defended that premise vigorously. All it took was one guy to sail around a little bit and say, "hey, I didn't fall off the edge".

Anyhow, unless you can come back with something better than your last few posts, I'll just leave you to your opinion. You raise your tortoises how you want and I'll do the same. In a few years time we'll have living proof that one or the other of us was wrong. Maybe we should leave the debate until then. Once one or the other of us is able to raise up some smooth ones. Until then, the WHOLE discussion is nothing but academic anyway.

 

[zeec]

Legitimate. Valid. Holding up to the scrutiny of the scientific community. Clear enough?

Thanks for the definition of legitimate... Did you or the scientific community examine the research? Did you look at the Power of the study, the confidence intervals, the P values? the methods? the data analysis ?to name a few. Just saying " it seems perfectly legit" is a joke to anyone who knows anything about stats or conducting research.

You need to come back to the real world where regular people have tortoises as pets and share rational, real world observations. A normal, healthy tortoise who is out in the Southern CA sun several hours almost every day should certainly be making enough D3 for the purposes of our discussion. The exact amount produced and measured by the hour is not relevant

Thats your answer to a scintefic method. just come back to the reall world? what about calcium content of. You sprinkle some calcium on some weeds and that means they are getting enough calcium?

You are still dodging the issue. If you want to be taken seriously you need to explain how all of my observations and the same observations of many others are wrong.

No, you have to explain why you are right. you have to show us the connection between humidity and pyramiding. I only have to prove why I'm right not why you are wrong. In any case you seem to think its hot and humid where sulcata's live which is wrong, It's not humid.

BTW, who are you? What species do you keep and how many? How many decades of practical, real world experience do you have to back up what you are saying?

I raise T. Kleinmanni. I have a huge breeding goup and have years of experience. I've raised hatchlings on 100% pure bone dry sand with no pyramiding what so ever.

If we are all so wrong and off base, then surely you must have the CORRECT answer to this enigma. Please enlighten us. All I hear you saying is that we are wrong and jumping to conclusions. Logically, if you know that we are wrong, then you must also know what is right, right? You keep saying that we don't have the scientific basis to be making these claims, but I'm not hearing any scientific facts to back up yours.

Have you read the thread? I've explained that already more then once. Go to the start and read.

It is absurd and foolish to just blatantly disregard decades of hands on experience. All the science in the world can't be substituted for years of professional hands on work.

You yourself have said that for years you followed what was concered to be expert advice from people who have decades of experience and now they've been proven wrong.

Remember the top scientists of the world used to think the world was flat and defended that premise vigorously. All it took was one guy to sail around a little bit and say, "hey, I didn't fall off the edge".

Another great example of why you shouldn't listen to the "experts." You have to base your reasoning on fact and objectives not what someone tells without evidence. I'm not saying i'm a scientist so believe me, I'm saying look at the facts.

Anyhow, unless you can come back with something better than your last few posts, I'll just leave you to your opinion. You raise your tortoises how you want and I'll do the same. In a few years time we'll have living proof that one or the other of us was wrong. Maybe we should leave the debate until then. Once one or the other of us is able to raise up some smooth ones. Until then, the WHOLE discussion is nothing but academic anyway.

I've raised tortoises without pyramiding already but I wouldn't use that as proof because that's mywhole point, Its not about personal experience in limited numbers. Just because I have raised animals on minimal humidity with success is just anecdotal not proof of anything.

I wouldn't consider our discussion any form of academia, but let's not get worked up. This just an Internet forum.

 

[Stephanie Logan]

So...what do you recommend to tortoise keepers who want to raise torts with smooth shells?

 

[snake_girl85]

It's amazing to me how the same opinions based on fallacies are reiterated from one forum to another. Despite what you think this has a tremendous effect on how tortoises are raised. Already on this forum this happening http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-13143.html.

I feel that since it is my post you are referring to, I should explain myself.

I did not go out and buy a tortoise, only to see one guy on a forum say that humidity causes pyramiding, and take it as gospel. I have seen many arguments regarding the cause, and am perfectly able to form my own opinions.

I am inclined to believe that humidity plays at least some part in pyramiding, but I am not 100% sure. My method for preventing pyramiding is to try to keep all my bases covered. Not only am I attempting to keep the humidity up, but I am also trying to provide my tortoise with proper lighting, diet, temperature etc… In fact, I have determined that the diet I have been providing is too nutritious (dandelion, collard/turnip greens etc, grasses), and am adding more spring mix to the rotation, so as to simulate the lower nutrient content of a natural diet. Are the beginning signs of pyramiding due to low humidity or inappropriate diet? I don’t know, but I am trying to correct both.

Likewise, I am not so selfish and vain as to tailor the environment to create a pretty, perfectly smooth shell. My main concern for humidity is because I am dealing with a very young tortoise, and do not want him to become dehydrated. Regardless of the effects on the shell, there can be no doubt that hatchling tortoises are prone to dehydration due to their small size, and that even in the desert they have access to higher humidity in burrows and other hiding places. Of course I want a natural looking shell, but my concern is the survival of my fragile young tortoise.

As for the other responses on the thread you referenced, I don’t believe that they were definitely saying that low humidity is the only factor in pyramiding. I think that everyone is merely trying to keep all bases covered. If it were a long held opinion that humidity was the only cause of pyramiding, and out of the blue someone had evidence that it was due to excessive dietary protein, you would see the same thing happen. It’s not because these people take that view as absolute truth, it is more like “Hey, I know you are trying everything else, but you haven’t been feeding your tortoise cat food, have you?”

I think that the best way to avoid pyramiding, REGARDLESS of the cause, is to provide a habitat and diet as close to nature as possible. Don’t condemn concerns over humidity when it is an obvious and often overlooked factor in the health of tortoises.

---

Not to nitpick, and I have only skimmed the study so far, but...

Did you or the scientific community examine the research?

I'd venture to say whoever published it in the Journal of Animal Physiology and Animal Nutrition at least read the thing...

Did you look at the ...the P values?...

It's been a few years since my AP stats class, but I think I remember a P value of less than 0.001 being pretty darn good.

As for the methods and analysis, I haven't read that far yet.

 

[zeec]

So...what do you recommend to tortoise keepers who want to raise torts with smooth shells?

I'm sorry, I didn't have time to answer your question earlier. I raise my animals on a rich diet of weeds, grape leaves and store bought lettuces. I don't worry about the humidity. Its usually whatever ambient humidity is in my house which is usaually around 30-40% but varies depending on the seasons. I supplement regularly with plenty of calcium and vit D. If i notice that there may be early signs of pyramids i decrease the food intake and and increase the calcium/d3 intake, Not because i think overfeeding is bad but because i want to minimize phosphorus and maximize calcium absorbtion. The only time I ever change humidity is when an animal is sick (which is rare) If i have the tort at 30 c i alywas keep the humidity as high as i can in his inclosure because high humidity decreases the work of breathing. The lungs don't have to first humidify the air. this helps when an animal has a respiratory infection. I also keep a water dish with the animal to climb into it so that they don't become dehydrated, Because i know that dehydration and humidity are differnt.

Snake_girl85: My post was not directed at you in any way. I just thought it was funny when someone said that your animal is pyramiding and ammediatley asked about the humidity. Your leopard looks great by the way. As far as P values is dependant on the power of the study among many other things. You can power any study to get P values to suite your needs

 

[Tom]

"I raise T. Kleinmanni. I have a huge breeding goup and have years of experience. I've raised hatchlings on 100% pure bone dry sand with no pyramiding what so ever."

One species? Really? And you are trying to win an argument with people who have raised many species for decades?

Tell us, what part of the country do you live in? What is the humidity like?

Raise a smooth Sulcata or Leopard using your methods and then I will hang on your every word. For that matter, I'd like to hear from anyone whose raised a smooth Sulcata or Leopard.

I do not have the answer to pyramiding, yet. But I think I've seen enough to make an educated guess. I'm in the process of using actual live animals in my own informal experiments to try to answer this question.

You are free to disregard whatever helpful info you want.

 

[chadk]

Sounds like an extreme case - does best with very low humidity...

http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/tkleinmannicare.htm

"HOUSING: Egyptian tortoises MUST be housed in a dry, warm environment with low ambient humidity. This must be taken into consideration when arranging housing for them. Upon exposure to a humid environment, even if warm, many of these tortoises fare very poorly and rapidly decline. This is a species that has evolved a very strict niche over the years and one that does not fare well outside that niche. While most species of tortoises respond well and do much better with outdoor maintenance, this species tends to do best in indoor accommodations unless they are being maintained in a low humidity, high temperature climate. Egyptian tortoises tend to bury themselves in the topsoil or under the base of clumps of grass, regardless of being maintained indoors or out. Opportunities to practice this natural behavior should be provided for. "

 

[Scooter]

Is pyramiding more likely in some species and not others? I have seen few T. Kleinmanni with pyramiding but most leopards and sulcatas I see have at least some pyramiding. Does this mean they are less susceptible to pyramiding?

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Tom... I am in Oregon not Washington. For the last 4 years of Bob's life he has lived in Oregon. Right now the temperature here is 54 degrees with 57% humidity. In Senegal which is the median Sulcata range the temperature is 73 degrees with 80% humidity.
I have head-started numerous Gopherus agassizii, raising them from new fresh out of the egg to 12 to 15 months and not one had a bumpy carapace where he was adopted. Then I had Tony Stewart(sulcata) from 24 hours out of the egg to almost 4 years old and he was very slightly pyramided. I had Cali she was 4 years old when she died with a smooth carapace.
I feel my street cred is being questioned here.
I am not an expert, I have not been keeping chelonia for decades like the rest of you. But I know what I have seen and I know what I know and that is the *big four* will keep your tortoise from becoming pyramided. How? I don't know and frankly I don't care. I do believe however, that if you miss hit on one of those 4 things you get a Sulcata with a pyramided carapace.
As for the carapace smoothing out as the animal grows, yep I see that happen and the only thing I have for that is my personal opinion that it is slow growth that does that. If Yvonne would post a picture of her Dudley he has tiny points on his carapace, not square tall pyramids.

 

[zeec]

Is pyramiding more likely in some species and not others? I have seen few T. Kleinmanni with pyramiding but most leopards and sulcatas I see have at least some pyramiding. Does this mean they are less susceptible to pyramiding?

You actually see pyramiding just as much in t kleinmanni. It's just that there's probably 20 or 30 sulcata's for every Kleinmanni that you see, so it seems like its more prevalent. So I wonder what causes pyramiding in Egyptians...maybe its high humidity since they are used to a dry environment?
Roachman : This is getting nowwhere. I've raised other species before, I'm just focused on T. Kleinmanni because that's my passion. I've raised them in different parts of the country from So Cal to NY.
Let me ask you this, Why do you think pyramiding happens in the wild as well especially with leopards. You can have differnt degrees of pyramiding from one leopard to another living in the same range, Isn't humidity there the same?
"One species? Really? And you are trying to win an argument with people who have raised many species for decades?

I'm not trying to win any any arguments, you can say whatever you want now since we are way off topic now.

"Raise a smooth Sulcata or Leopard using your methods and then I will hang on your every word"

Again, Raising a smooth sulcata is not the ultimate proof that someone's way of doing things equalls smooth shells . Its even been said on this thread that there have been torts that have been fed horrible diets or dog food since hatching and still have perfect shells. Does that mean their way is correct? This applies to all species not just sulcata's, Their physiology is the same.

 

[Stephanie Logan]

So do you use separate products for calcium and D3 supplementation, or do you use calcium powder that also has D3 in it?

Do you recommend a particular brand?

How much calcium/D3 do you use? Is it measurable or do you just "dust" it on?

Just to clarify, you believe all tortoise species are equally susceptible to pyramiding unless they are given calcium and D3 supplements.

Conversely, you believe that no tortoise will experience pyramiding as long as they are given adequate amounts of calcium and D3 supplements. Yes?

 

[zeec]

So do you use separate products for calcium and D3 supplementation, or do you use calcium powder that also has D3 in it?

Do you recommend a particular brand?

How much calcium/D3 do you use? Is it measurable or do you just "dust" it on?

At one point in time I used to buy Tubs of pure calcium. I would make my own vit D powder by crushing 400U Vit D tablets. I would calculate the amount I have and mix with the calcium as I thought i needed depending on the diet, activity, and season. I have since stopped doing that because it was more time consuming and I felt that I was probably overshooting my target vit D which may become problematic. Now I just use Good Ole Reptical. It has a good safe amount of Vit D plus other trace minerals that are important as well.

"Just to clarify, you believe all tortoise species are equally susceptible to pyramiding unless they are given calcium and D3 supplements.Just to clarify, you believe all tortoise species are equally susceptible to pyramiding unless they are given calcium and D3 supplements."

I believe they will develop pyramiding if they are calcium and/or Vit D3 deficient. If they can get enough from diet and natural light then they don't need any supplements. If they are getting suplemented, that will not guarantee that they will not pyramid, since differnt people will give differnt amounts, The torts may avoid eating any calcium at all since its less palatable. So its no guarantee that if you give supplements you won't get pyramiding but for the most part you will get less pyramiding

This is they way I have done things. I never preach it, or try to tell anyone what to do with his/her animals unless they ask, thats why i stay off the forums. The last thing I would say is " my animals are healthy/healthier so I must be right and you must be wrong"

 

[DonaTello's-Mom]

Hi Zeec,
I have a question for you, actually two. If you had a Sulcata hatchling, how would you house it to prevent pyramiding? Temps, substrate etc. Now number two. If you just got an older Sulcata, slightly pyramided, what adjustments would you make if any? I'm just curious on other members methods of husbandry.

 

[Tom]

Zeec, I mean you no disrespect, but we've been talking about apples and oranges here. I don't know Kleinmans tortoises at all, but a quick google search turned up a bunch of pics and none of them were pyramided. Do a google search for sulcatas or leopards. The only non-pyramided pics you will see are of wild ones.

To address something you brought up, I saw several hundred leopards in the wild, semi-wild and captivity while I was in in South Africa working for four months. Both sub-species. Not a single one was pyramided at all. So different looking were they, that I didn't even recognize the species at first. So, no I don't think they pyramid in the wild. Maybe there has been one somewhere, sometime, but that is most definitely a rare phenom, if it happens.

I noticed a definite change in the tone of your posts when I (incorrectly) called you on a lack of experience with other torts. You went from combative and argumentative to cooperative and helpful. Do you live in a humid climate now? Have you raised Leopards or Sulcatas from hatchlings and experienced the terrible frustration of failure even though you did everything "right"? I have, and that's why I feel so strongly about this and have been coming at you the way I have. I detect from your new tone that you know what I'm talking about.

I will have the evidence to back up my claims in the next 2 or 3 years, but right now, you are correct, I can't do it. I have, however seen what I've seen out in the world and there is too much anecdotal evidence to be ignored. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, smells like a duck, etc...

I wish you well with your herd and thank you for making me challenge and really think through what I've observed.

 

[zeec]

Zeec, I mean you no disrespect, but we've been talking about apples and oranges here. I don't know Kleinmans tortoises at all, but a quick google search turned up a bunch of pics and none of them were pyramided. Do a google search for sulcatas or leopards. The only non-pyramided pics you will see are of wild ones.

To address something you brought up, I saw several hundred leopards in the wild, semi-wild and captivity while I was in in South Africa working for four months. Both sub-species. Not a single one was pyramided at all. So different looking were they, that I didn't even recognize the species at first. So, no I don't think they pyramid in the wild. Maybe there has been one somewhere, sometime, but that is most definitely a rare phenom, if it happens.

I noticed a definite change in the tone of your posts when I (incorrectly) called you on a lack of experience with other torts. You went from combative and argumentative to cooperative and helpful. Do you live in a humid climate now? Have you raised Leopards or Sulcatas from hatchlings and experienced the terrible frustration of failure even though you did everything "right"? I have, and that's why I feel so strongly about this and have been coming at you the way I have. I detect from your new tone that you know what I'm talking about.

I will have the evidence to back up my claims in the next 2 or 3 years, but right now, you are correct, I can't do it. I have, however seen what I've seen out in the world and there is too much anecdotal evidence to be ignored. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, smells like a duck, etc...

I wish you well with your herd and thank you for making me challenge and really think through what I've observed.

My tone is never combative, or at least I never meant it to be but fair enough. I think we've discussed this topic ad nauseam. Let's move on...

 

[-EJ]

While I've only skimmed through this thread... I could not see one mention of temperature. As long as the thread is I would suspect that it was mentioned.

Heat and hydration (internal and external) are the primary and secondary components in good shell growth... nutrition comes in third.

 

[Tom]

While I've only skimmed through this thread... I could not see one mention of temperature. As long as the thread is I would suspect that it was mentioned.

Heat and hydration (internal and external) are the primary and secondary components in good shell growth... nutrition comes in third.

Well thanks for finally joining us! Do mean they need more heat or not too much or just the right amount? Are you saying that too cool temps can contribute to pyramiding? Or too hot?

 

[-EJ]

I believe that the lack of heat is a primary cause of pyramiding. Again... tortoises are reptiles and require proper temperature for proper metabolism. The hydration is the next step. These 2 points are the basic components for everything else to occur.

While I've only skimmed through this thread... I could not see one mention of temperature. As long as the thread is I would suspect that it was mentioned.

Heat and hydration (internal and external) are the primary and secondary components in good shell growth... nutrition comes in third.

Well thanks for finally joining us! Do mean they need more heat or not too much or just the right amount? Are you saying that too cool temps can contribute to pyramiding? Or too hot?

 

[Tom]

Thanks Ed. In the past I kept mine a little warmer than most. 75-80 at night and basking SPOTS up to 120 during the day. Do you think this is too hot and possibly contributes to the drying effect? They had places as cool as 75-80 to get away from the basking spots in very large enclosures. They also got regular soaks and I sprayed the food with a little water before they ate it.

Oh, I'm mostly talking about young sulcatas, by the way.

 

[-EJ]

That's perfect.

Thanks Ed. In the past I kept mine a little warmer than most. 75-80 at night and basking SPOTS up to 120 during the day. Do you think this is too hot and possibly contributes to the drying effect? They had places as cool as 75-80 to get away from the basking spots in very large enclosures. They also got regular soaks and I sprayed the food with a little water before they ate it.

Oh, I'm mostly talking about young sulcatas, by the way.