pyramiding

[Maggie Cummings]

I wish I knew I would be keeping track of his growth and pyramiding. I would have taken better pictures.
So here is Bob when I first got him 6 years ago. He was 5 pounds. He was little and he'd steal the cats food...Anyhow, this is Bob at 5 years old and 5 pounds...

This is Bob at 7 years...

And Bob now at 11 years...

It doesn't ever go away completely, it becomes little peaks...So I don't know what the pictures show, Bob with a clean face??? It does show what I've always said, that if you correct the husbandry and make sure that the humidity is right and you feed correctly that the new growth will be smooth and the pyramiding will look less...

 

[GBtortoises]

His pyramiding really isn't bad at all. There are far worse out there! While pyramided growth does not go away, your tortoise is proof that if changes are made when young enough that it can be subdued with a better diet and care.

 

[Stephanie Logan]

AAaawwww, little Bob already being mischievous, eating the cat's food!

I can really see the "reduction" in the appearance of wrinkles and fine lines--oops, I mean pyramids! He's just such a handsome tort, waking up from his beauty sleep! "Time to go move some cement blocks"...

 

[Tom]

I think I'm catching your drift Maggie. I've noticed this in a lot of the bigger sulcatas. There are a couple of hold ups with your theory though. Maybe you can explain these away for me and then we can agree 100%.

Hold up #1. My older sulcatas are exhibiting this very phenomenon you are expressing. And I've seen it in most of the other large adults I come across too. Problem is me and all these other keepers, didn't change any thing. It SEEMS to me that as they get bigger they just gradually start to smooth out on their own. This is the case for the mildly pyramided, well cared for ones, like mine and yours and my local friends here. This may not be the case for the extreme cases and poorly cared for ones.

Hold up #2. Daisy. I got her just to try to prove or disprove this very thing we are discussing. (Well, if I'm honest, I just wanted another one, but it still serves our discussion.) To reiterate for anyone whose not up to speed on Daisy: I got her at three months, heavily pyramiding in a "beef jerky maker" style set-up. Her initial set-up was a dry substrate with a large, very humid hide box, a la Richard and Jerry Fife's Leopard Tortoise book. She spent most of her time in the humid hide box. She slept in there all night, and during the day she'd come out to eat and run around a little then go right back in. After six months or so, no change in rate of pyramiding, so I went to a soil/orchid bark substrate, covered the top and kept everything very damp. Still no change after six months of this. For the last 8 or 9 months I've gone all out. She's got a wet hide box, wet 3" thick substrate, completely covered top, thorough mistings of the whole enclosure two or three times a day, and I've bumped the room humidity up to 50% all the time. The humidity inside her enclosure is usually in the 90's. I watch her very closely for shell rot or respiratory problems and have seen no sign of anything.

There has been no noticeable change in her rate of pyramiding. What I'm surmising from this is that whatever pattern is established in the first few months is very difficult to change. I don't know if you can take a smooth 6 month old, put it in a dry aquarium with a hot light and make it pyramid. Anyone ever done it this way (and willing to admit it)?

Daisy at 3 months, just days after I got her:

Daisy a couple of weeks ago, after nearly two years of humidity:

 

[Maggie Cummings]

But it's more than just humidity. You also have to feed a correct diet, give UVB and EXERCISE...

4 things are needed to prevent or stop pyramiding and if you don't correct all 4 the pyramiding won't change. So your Daisy needs to walk miles like they do in the wild, she needs to be fed a strict diet and she needs to be under a UVB light for 12 hours a day. So to me, in MY experience you need to have all 4 of those things lined up correctly. I think you can maybe ease up on the UVB, but exercise is a major part of that regimen, and I don't hear you talking about getting her to exercise. You seem to be locked in on humidity and preventing or stopping pyramiding is much more then just a lot of humidity...I think she needs to be put outside and walk, walk for miles or as close to miles as you can get...

 

[GBtortoises]

Maggie-you read my mind! I've been "preaching" nearly the same thing for a long time now. Yet, some insist that you can simply "cure" pyramiding with added humidity alone. While lack of humidity (ambient air and substrate moisture combined) is definitely a contributing factor in the developmental growth of young tortoises so are several other factors. In my opinion many tortoises are being fed too much of a diet that is too rich in vitamins, too much supplemental vitamins, not nearly a high enough activity level (often due to lack of adequate space) and being kept too warm on a constant basis.

 

[Tom]

But it's more than just humidity. You also have to feed a correct diet, give UVB and EXERCISE...

4 things are needed to prevent or stop pyramiding and if you don't correct all 4 the pyramiding won't change. So your Daisy needs to walk miles like they do in the wild, she needs to be fed a strict diet and she needs to be under a UVB light for 12 hours a day. So to me, in MY experience you need to have all 4 of those things lined up correctly. I think you can maybe ease up on the UVB, but exercise is a major part of that regimen, and I don't hear you talking about getting her to exercise. You seem to be locked in on humidity and preventing or stopping pyramiding is much more then just a lot of humidity...I think she needs to be put outside and walk, walk for miles or as close to miles as you can get...

This is exactly my argument from all of my previous pyramiding postings. I contend that it is not those things and it IS just humidity. Daisy gets daily exercise for at least an hour or two in a big outdoor pen. Somedays its four or five hours. You've seen the size of my pens. This is the only time she's out of the humidity. Her indoor enclosure is 6x2'. Exercise? If mine don't get a lot of exercise, I don't know whose do. She can't get a better diet. You know what I feed. Freshly picked grasses, weeds, mulberry leaves, roses and leaves, two kinds of cactus, occasional Mazuri recently, and occasional spring mix and leafy greens. And you know she's undersize, so not over fed, just like my older ones. She's got cuttlebone and regular calcium supplementation. She gets soaked 5-6 times a week and I spray her food with water for extra hydration. If diet, exercise, hydration, calcium and UV had anything to do with it she'd be perfect and so would all of my older ones.

Forget Daisy. I've seen tortoises literally all over the world and this country. Doesn't matter what they are fed, how much exercise they get, whether or not they get additional calcium or UV. If they are housed humid, they don't pyramid, if they are housed dry they do. Did you see my post about the guy in Louisiana that raised his hatchling outside, in a shaded, small box, with dirt and feces for substrate on dog food? He was very large for his age, but totally smooth. Ever been to New Orleans. Its ALWAYS very humid there. I have a mountain of this anecdotal evidence from nearly two decades of trying to figure this out. The Fife's book planted this seed in my head and not only does what they said make perfect sense and work, I can't find anything, anywhere to contradict it.

Forget ALL of my anecdotal evidence AND Daisy. Have you read over this study?

http://africantortoise.com/_sulcatadiet2.pdf

I have. I've just re-read it for the sixth time. This is a repeatable, peer reviewable, legitimate scientific study proving what I am trying to say. It clearly states that diet had a negligible effect. Didn't matter what percentage of protein they were on. They all had the same size enclosures, UV, exercise, calcium, water... everything. The more humid they were the less they pyramided. The highest humidity group was "almost smooth". The lowest humidity group was significantly pyramided. It basically says all other factors were not a factor. I don't know how much more proof there could be.

I used to think and teach exactly what you are trying to tell me. Basically the same thing that it says on the africantortoise site and almost everywhere else on the internet or in books. I'm saying now that I WAS and YOU ARE wrong. The evidence, both anecdotal and scientific, doesn't support the whole combination of things concept. It does support the humidity only concept. I don't care about being right or wrong. There is no pride involved here. I just want me, you and everyone else to finally really know, what causes pyramiding, how to prevent it and how, if possible, to stop it once it starts. You know I think you are great and there is not once ounce of disrespect in this, so don't you get your feathers all ruffled with me. We have all been wrong about things in the past and I believe "the establishment" is wrong on this one. For how many years did we tell everyone that all desert species need it hot and dry ALL the time? That was clearly wrong and this latest info is just an extension of that.

 

[zeec]

Maggie-you read my mind! I've been "preaching" nearly the same thing for a long time now. Yet, some insist that you can simply "cure" pyramiding with added humidity alone. While lack of humidity (ambient air and substrate moisture combined) is definitely a contributing factor in the developmental growth of young tortoises so are several other factors. In my opinion many tortoises are being fed too much of a diet that is too rich in vitamins, too much supplemental vitamins, not nearly a high enough activity level (often due to lack of adequate space) and being kept too warm on a constant basis.

With all due respect, the idea of humidity having anything to do with pyramiding is laughable. What exactly is the connection between low humidity and pyramiding? how does low humidity cause or even contribute to pyramiding? What exactly is the mechanism by which low humidity causes pyramiding? How does a diet rich in vitamins or a low activity level cause it? One can't simply say that it does, without any shred of objective evidence, based on anecdotes. You can't just say "I've been raising torts for 20 years and I know thats the cause," or " a very reputable vet told me so "

Pyramiding is likely caused by low calcium levels secondary to either low calcium intake or low vit D3 levels causing a malabsorption of calcium. This causes the matrix of the bone to be spongy and low in density. Bone is constantly being turned over, when there is a lack of Calcium the resultant matrix is brittle, with a sponge like appearance and a low density. Now there is an objective way to absolutely measure this. This should have been done as a research study to put this issue to rest a long time ago.
1) Measure the density of bone via a Dual energy X-ray absorptiometry (DEXA scan) which would tell you if the pyramided bone is in fact osteoporotic or not by comparing to non pyramided shells in a control group.
2) Measure the amount of vit D 25 hydroxy in both groups. This the most accurate measure of usable vit D
3) Measure the amount of ionized calcuim in both groups.

Compare the Data and put the issue to rest.

Please don't take my post the wrong way. In no way do I mean to be antagonistic, just debating a topic

 

[Shelly]

Pyramiding is likely caused by low calcium levels secondary to either low calcium intake or low vit D3 levels causing a malabsorption of calcium. This causes the matrix of the bone to be spongy and low in density. Bone is constantly being turned over, when there is a lack of Calcium the resultant matrix is brittle, with a sponge like appearance and a low density. Now there is an objective way to absolutely measure this. This should have been done as a research study to put this issue to rest a long time ago.
1) Measure the density of bone via a Dual energy X-ray absorptiometry (DEXA scan) which would tell you if the pyramided bone is in fact osteoporotic or not by comparing to non pyramided shells in a control group.
2) Measure the amount of vit D 25 hydroxy in both groups. This the most accurate measure of usable vit D
3) Measure the amount of ionized calcuim in both groups.

Compare the Data and put the issue to rest.

It sounds to me like you are describing MBD, not pyramiding. They are 2 separate, distinct issues.

 

[zeec]

Pyramiding is likely caused by low calcium levels secondary to either low calcium intake or low vit D3 levels causing a malabsorption of calcium. This causes the matrix of the bone to be spongy and low in density. Bone is constantly being turned over, when there is a lack of Calcium the resultant matrix is brittle, with a sponge like appearance and a low density. Now there is an objective way to absolutely measure this. This should have been done as a research study to put this issue to rest a long time ago.
1) Measure the density of bone via a Dual energy X-ray absorptiometry (DEXA scan) which would tell you if the pyramided bone is in fact osteoporotic or not by comparing to non pyramided shells in a control group.
2) Measure the amount of vit D 25 hydroxy in both groups. This the most accurate measure of usable vit D
3) Measure the amount of ionized calcuim in both groups.

Compare the Data and put the issue to rest.

It sounds to me like you are describing MBD, not pyramiding. They are 2 separate, distinct issues.

I am describing pyramiding. MBD is a vague constellation of symptoms without any real criteria for diagnosis. I am saying that pyramiding is caused by low calcium not low humidity.

 

[Yvonne G]

Tom:

I am willing to entertain your train of thought about if the tortoise has started to pyramid, nothing you can do will change that. Its going to go where it is headed without any intervention or outside help. However, your pictures of one tortoise do not a study make. It would be very interesting to see it happen to other tortoises besides just the one. It makes a lot of sense to me what you are saying.

Zeec: It has been proved and a paper written on the subject. Read:

http://www.ivorytortoise.com/information/documents/pyramiding_in_tortoises.html

by Richard Fife, a well-known and respected member of the tortoise community.

 

[zeec]

Tom:

I am willing to entertain your train of thought about if the tortoise has started to pyramid, nothing you can do will change that. Its going to go where it is headed without any intervention or outside help. However, your pictures of one tortoise do not a study make. It would be very interesting to see it happen to other tortoises besides just the one. It makes a lot of sense to me what you are saying.

Zeec: It has been proved and a paper written on the subject. Read:

http://www.ivorytortoise.com/information/documents/pyramiding_in_tortoises.html

by Richard Fife, a well-known and respected member of the tortoise community.

That's exactly what i mean. we should be looking at a cohort with hundreds of animals to get accurate results. In the above studies again vit d3, or bone density were never measured. In the first study mentioned above calcium, phosphorus and hematocrit were measured. The problem with measuring calcium directly is that calcuim is so tightly controlled by the body that you hardly get any fluctuations in it if you did the animal would die. Hypo and hypercalcemia is very dangerous, which is why the body will destroy any existing bone matrix to keep the calcium level at a normal range. That is why bone density and vit D3 levels are the gold standards for diagnosing osteoporosis. The phosphorus level can fluctuate but is usually dependant on calcium homeostasis first. Finally a hematocrit level is of no help whatsoever when it comes to osteoporosis.

The idea of protein affecting the shell growth can although be tested by measuring the total protein and albumin level. An albumin level is a good indicator of overall nutritional status. Calcium is bound to albumin usually so a very low albumin may affect calcium level as well but in a minor way.

The last study mentioned. Two things stood out, first this statment; "During periods when food is plentiful the humidly is also increased, growth is rapid, and pyramiding is rare." which leads me to think " how do we know its not the high nutritional intake that caused the smooth growth?
Secondly “that during dry conditions, dehydration reduces both intra- and inter-cellular pressures on soft cartilage at the areas of bone growth, which could lead to collapse of the soft tissue and subsequent ossification in the collapsed position.” this is the only statement that attempted to provide a clear mechanism explaining the cause and effect, but fell short for me. For that to happen you would need a huge decrease in the total body fluid of more that 20% or so which would mean an extremely dehydrated animal on the verge of death. which is certainly not the case with most pyramided animals.

My point is there are no large or small studies that looked at the objectives.When you raise animals under differnent conditions for a study the variables are too confounding and a cause and effect relation cannot be assumed.

I don't mean to bore anyone, and I respect anyone's hard work towards a valid explanation whether it be Richard Fife or anyone else. I just don't buy it yet

 

[zeec]

Zeec: It has been proved and a paper written on the subject. Read:

http://www.ivorytortoise.com/information/documents/pyramiding_in_tortoises.html

by Richard Fife, a well-known and respected member of the tortoise community.

Richard Fife's article hardly proves anything so I wouldn't say its been proven.

 

[Yvonne G]

How much more proof do you need? He states in his article:

In 2003 the University of Veterinary Medicine in Vienna (Austria) finally quantified the importance of “Humidity” in the environment of hatching tortoises, and also showed in their research that high levels of protein had little affect on Pyramiding (Wiesner CS, Iben C. 2003. Influence of environmental humidity and dietary protein on pyramidal growth of carapaces in African spurred tortoises (Geochelone sulcata). J Anim Physiol a Anim. Nutr 87:66-74).

 

[zeec]

How much more proof do you need? He states in his article:

In 2003 the University of Veterinary Medicine in Vienna (Austria) finally quantified the importance of “Humidity” in the environment of hatching tortoises, and also showed in their research that high levels of protein had little affect on Pyramiding (Wiesner CS, Iben C. 2003. Influence of environmental humidity and dietary protein on pyramidal growth of carapaces in African spurred tortoises (Geochelone sulcata). J Anim Physiol a Anim. Nutr 87:66-74).

what proof are you talking about here, because he sites another author that means he proved anything? He doesn't offer any data of his own.I would hardly call that proof or a study. The Vienna study is the same study sited earlier, that again didn't prove objectively any relationship or offer a plausible explanation. If you raise 20 or 30 hatchlings with or without humidity and some have slightly more pyramiding in the non-humid group that doesn't mean it was a cause and effect. If you don't get that, I don't know what else to tell you.

...If you are convinced that humidity causes pyramiding, please enlighten me, How does lack of humidity cause pyramiding?

 

[Maggie Cummings]

I don't know how to prove anything that we are talking about, as it is all over my head now. All I have for proof is Bob. He was starting to pyramid when I got him. I corrected the husbandry...80% or so ambient humidity, hours daily of UVB light, correct diet, and exercise. I don't use any supplements on him. I feed him a varied diet, he has no direct humidity now but he did for the first couple of years I had him, and miles of exercise.
I can only say over and over...it takes all 4 of those things to correct/prevent growing pyramiding. I don't know how or why they work, but they do. Look at Bob. You are saying that's not good enough...you are wanting to see a tortoise that was badly pyramided and now he's not. But all I have is one tortoise who was starting to pyramid and I got it to stop. You are wanting to make it complex and hard. But it's not complex, it's not hard. It's easy...4 things to prevent or stop pyramiding and they work. That's what it is. It's simple and you want to make it hard. Get me a badly pyramided Sulcata and I'll get it to stop. There's your challenge...that's my offer. I'll get bad pyramiding to stop from the time he's in my hands. Because you are making this hard and it's not, it's simple...

 

[zeec]

I don't know how to prove anything that we are talking about, as it is all over my head now. All I have for proof is Bob. He was starting to pyramid when I got him. I corrected the husbandry...80% or so ambient humidity, hours daily of UVB light, correct diet, and exercise. I don't use any supplements on him. I feed him a varied diet, he has no direct humidity now but he did for the first couple of years I had him, and miles of exercise.
I can only say over and over...it takes all 4 of those things to correct/prevent growing pyramiding. I don't know how or why they work, but they do. Look at Bob. You are saying that's not good enough...you are wanting to see a tortoise that was badly pyramided and now he's not. But all I have is one tortoise who was starting to pyramid and I got it to stop. You are wanting to make it complex and hard. But it's not complex, it's not hard. It's easy...4 things to prevent or stop pyramiding and they work. That's what it is. It's simple and you want to make it hard. Get me a badly pyramided Sulcata and I'll get it to stop. There's your challenge...that's my offer. I'll get bad pyramiding to stop from the time he's in my hands. Because you are making this hard and it's not, it's simple...

I don't mean to make anything complex, its quite the opposite. All I am saying is that you need some sunlight and a good diet to avoid pyramiding. That's all. I'm all for simplicity but I am just stating the facts behind my reasoning. When someone makes a claim for low humidity without evidence-based facts, is it wrong to challenge them? The more we are challenged, the more we will understand. Ultimately its for the benefit of tortoises.

---

...you are wanting to see a tortoise that was badly pyramided and now he's not.

I never said that. I said get some pyramided tortoises, some non-pyramided tortoise and compare their bone density and Vit D level. This will give you accurate, measurable data that can be compared.

 

[Stephanie Logan]

I think it was Roachman who spent time in South Africa, where he saw tons of Leopard tortoises in the wild, and none of them were pyramided (?) And hasn't that been true across all species, that when they are not captive born, they are not pyramided?

So my question would be: what is different about a tortoise's diet and habitat in the wild as opposed to in captivity? And it would seem then that Maggie's theory about humidity and endless exercise is logical and "proven" in the sense that only captive tortoises kept in (varying) captive conditions end up pyramided.

There has to be something(s) that all wild tortoises experience that contributes to universally smooth shells, so if one could do a study with wild tortoises as the "control group", maybe some of the beliefs stated in this thread could be scientifically proven.


[My apologies if I got the "wild tortoises don't pyramid" concept wrong...I looked and looked for that thread but couldn't find it to cite. ]

 

[zeec]

I think it was Roachman who spent time in South Africa, where he saw tons of Leopard tortoises in the wild, and none of them were pyramided (?) And hasn't that been true across all species, that when they are not captive born, they are not pyramided?

So my question would be: what is different about a tortoise's diet and habitat in the wild as opposed to in captivity? And it would seem then that Maggie's theory about humidity and endless exercise is logical and "proven" in the sense that only captive tortoises kept in (varying) captive conditions end up pyramided.

There has to be something(s) that all wild tortoises experience that contributes to universally smooth shells, so if one could do a study with wild tortoises as the "control group", maybe some of the beliefs stated in this thread could be scientifically proven.


[My apologies if I got the "wild tortoises don't pyramid" concept wrong...I looked and looked for that thread but couldn't find it to cite. ]

Wild tortoises do pyramid as well. A tortoise can go through periods of poor intake in the wild. That's a fact, this will affect their calcium intake. They will have to remodel or reabsorb bone matrix to keep calcium homeostasis.

By your logic, why would some tortoises pyramid in the wild in the same environment as others who don't, Isn't the humidity level the same?

 

[Maggie Cummings]

While I was standing in the shower just now I got to thinking about it. I have head-started I don't know...50?...100? Anyhow how ever many there were Gopherus agassizii I head-started for Clovis Turtle and Tortoise Rescue and not a one had a bump on it's carapace when it was adopted out. Granted they don't pyramid the way Sulcata do, but they were still smooth. I also raised Tony Stewart, Sulcata, from 24 hours old to about 3 years old and when he was adopted out he was only slightly pyramided, I blinded him but he wasn't pyramided...

Who made a claim for low humidity? Did I miss that? Anyhow Tom, all 4 things need to be in place. If one is not right then you have a pyramided animal. I think you are making it more difficult then it is. You are looking for reasoning that is not there. And you are still missing the exercise part. Daisy needs to walk miles every day. I think that is a key part you are not understanding. Yes I have been to New Orleans, several times it has miserable humidity.