pyramiding

[zeec]

While I was standing in the shower just now I got to thinking about it. I have head-started I don't know...50?...100? Anyhow how ever many there were Gopherus agassizii I head-started for Clovis Turtle and Tortoise Rescue and not a one had a bump on it's carapace when it was adopted out. Granted they don't pyramid the way Sulcata do, but they were still smooth. I also raised Tony Stewart, Sulcata, from 24 hours old to about 3 years old and when he was adopted out he was only slightly pyramided, I blinded him but he wasn't pyramided...

Who made a claim for low humidity? Did I miss that? Anyhow Tom, all 4 things need to be in place. If one is not right then you have a pyramided animal. I think you are making it more difficult then it is. You are looking for reasoning that is not there. And you are still missing the exercise part. Daisy needs to walk miles every day. I think that is a key part you are not understanding. Yes I have been to New Orleans, several times it has miserable humidity.

Tom is differnent person, my name is Robert . I think the reasoning is definitely there and its not easily refutable. Low humidity as a basis of pyramiding is what previous posters argued and cited Richard Fife's article. Regardless, we all have or opinions. Goodnight.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

I used the name Tom because it was Tom to whom I was speaking. I know who I was directing my words to and it was Roachman, Tom. Zeec, you are new here and while you have made great reasoning I feel it was Yvonne you were talking to and not I.

Tom was the only person I was talking to. Zeec, I had been directing my words to him, I apologize for not making that more obvious. You came in the middle of the conversation and if you would read back you will see that you were talking to Yvonne and I was talking to Roachman.
This has been a matter of misunderstanding. So I think I will save anymore for tomorrow...

 

[zeec]

Zeec, you are new here and while you have made great reasoning I feel it was Yvonne you were talking to and not I.

I was actually one of the first people to join this forum when it first started in 08.

 

[Annieski]

I know I'm new to tortoise and their care in captivity, but In My Opinion, the reason this is soooo debatable is because there doesn't seem to be any "absolute values" for what it takes to raise a tortoise[the same way Mother Nature does]. Just because someone had good luck with "85% humidity, doesn't mean that is an absolute. The temperatures and relative humidity are different every day no matter where you are in the world. Calcium is as important for humans as it is for tortoise, for strong bones[shells] for humans[age and weight appropriate] average female 600iu with vitamin D,1xdaily. Where does it tell you on the Reptical with D3 what a "sprinkle" or "dusting" actually means. I just "dusted" Morty's food with the reptical. After she was finished with what I gave her to eat, she found her cuttle bone leaning in her water dish. She devoured half of a LARGE bone right in front of me--- is she now overdosed with calcium--- did she JUST want to keep her beak clean?--- maybe now she won"t touch the bone for weeks? I don't know. But neither does anyone else. I believe we can only follow the guidelines[however vague] and hope for the best. Sometimes, things go wrong---even when you do everything right.

 

[chadk]

Do hatchling tortoises in the wild spend more time in the direct sun on hot dry dusty sand, or more time in a borrow that has higher humidity than the surrounding open air habitat? Does anyone know the typical ambient humidity in the regions of Africa where you'd find Sulcatas? How much does it vary based on time of year (emphasis on the the period of time right after hatching). Where do the hatchlings sleep?

From what I've seen, sullies raised on decent diet with calcium suppliments, under hot lamps and dry substrate will definately have serious pyramiding issues.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Do hatchling tortoises in the wild spend more time in the direct sun on hot dry dusty sand, or more time in a borrow that has higher humidity than the surrounding open air habitat? Does anyone know the typical ambient humidity in the regions of Africa where you'd find Sulcatas? How much does it vary based on time of year (emphasis on the the period of time right after hatching). Where do the hatchlings sleep?

From what I've seen, sullies raised on decent diet with calcium suppliments, under hot lamps and dry substrate will definately have serious pyramiding issues.

Right now in the part of Sulcata range that I follow it is 10 PM with a temp of 68 degrees and an ambient humidity of 88%

 

[chadk]

That's some serious humidity. And it would be even more humid in a burrow...

 

[zeec]

That's some serious humidity. And it would be even more humid in a burrow...

That's just an association at best NOT a causality. Do you understand the difference? Its like me saying that people in humid parts of africa die of heart attacks more often than peolple in a dry area like arizona for example, so that means humidity causes more heart attacks. You can not attribute one to the other. I don't know why is that so difficult to understand. You still don't even say why you think low humidity causes pyramiding. Really I would love to hear what the mechanism is? I would love to hear anything that remotely comes even close to an explanation.

 

[Yvonne G]

Does this make any sense to you:

"research suggests that they (pyramid lumps) are caused by a mismatch
of water/humidity and food resources. Dry conditions would go hand in hand
with very low levels of available food in the wild. Tortoises that live in areas
of their natural range which happen to have more water resources will also
have more plants growing there. A lot of food and too little water/humidity is
strongly associated with pyramiding. So it isn't too much food per se that is
the issue, but too little water for the available food."

 

[chadk]

That's some serious humidity. And it would be even more humid in a burrow...

That's just an association at best NOT a causality. Do you understand the difference? Its like me saying that people in humid parts of africa die of heart attacks more often than peolple in a dry area like arizona for example, so that means humidity causes more heart attacks. You can not attribute one to the other. I don't know why is that so difficult to understand. You still don't even say why you think low humidity causes pyramiding. Really I would love to hear what the mechanism is? I would love to hear anything that remotely comes even close to an explanation.

Forget pyramiding for a second.... If their natural habitat is high in humidity, then surely that is one key ingredient a good sulcata keeper will try to provide as part of good husbandry. Agree?

Now does it play a part a in pyramiding? Not a 100% sure, but it seems likely, and it is part of what you should provide anyway, so it should be listed on any decent sulcata caresheet as a requirement.

 

[zeec]

Does this make any sense to you:

"research suggests that they (pyramid lumps) are caused by a mismatch
of water/humidity and food resources. Dry conditions would go hand in hand
with very low levels of available food in the wild. Tortoises that live in areas
of their natural range which happen to have more water resources will also
have more plants growing there. A lot of food and too little water/humidity is
strongly associated with pyramiding. So it isn't too much food per se that is
the issue, but too little water for the available food."

This writer is using water and humidity interchangeably (water/humidity). which is inaccurate " So it isn't too much food per se that is the issue, but too little water for the available food." so he/she is implying dehydration not low humidity as the cause. You can have a dehydrated tortoise in 100% humidity and visa versa. Water intake and humidity are two different things. Did they cite this research by the way?

 

[Tom]

Zeec, I don't know what the mechanism is for the sky being Blue. I don't know how to explain, in proper scientific terms, why the sky is blue. I CAN tell you that the sky IS blue. Because I haven't yet learned the exact mechanism of why its blue and how to clearly explain it, doesn't mean that it isn't blue. If all that was needed to prevent pyramiding was some calcium and sunshine, then mine wouldn't be pyramided. I have seen tortoises literally all over the world and one thing is consistent: If a hatchling is raised in a humid area, it DOES NOT pyramid. Conversely, if it is raised in a dry area it does. The care, diet, UV, sunshine, exercise, temps and calcium supplementation do not seem to matter. Humidity is the ONLY consistent factor. I don't expect you or anyone else to just take my word for it and that's why I posted the legitimate Austrian study that says almost exactly the same thing that I'm saying. My sulcatas have always had the best of care. Correct thermal gradient, lots of sunshine year round, great varied diet, huge outdoor pens for exercise, huge indoor pens for night time and the occasional cold day, calcium and vitamin supplementation (but, not too much), regular soaks for hydration, etc... I even underfed them to get them to grow slower. They were also, intentionally, kept very dry. I did this because that's what everyone said you were supposed to do back then. I was ignorant. If they are not pyramided because of low humidity, then please explain why they are. Instead of me telling you why humidity prevents pyramiding, why don't you tell me/us why tortoises that have all of your conditions met, still pyramided? If you need more info on my care, I'm happy to give it. As I said before, there is no pride here, I just want the truth about pyramiding to be known.

Maggie, would you please explain why tortoises that have all four of your requirements met still pyramid AND why some tortoises that have none of your requirements met don't. Please tell me why MY tortoises have all pyramided. I seem to have met all of your 4 required things, EXCEPT humidity. You seem to be basing a lot of your argument on Bob. Well, central CA and Washington are a lot more humid than the CA high desert. Might that have something to do with it? You also didn't address what I said about all of them smoothing out over time when they get bigger, regardless of conditions. All tortoises SHOULD be getting the four important things you mentioned. Those things are all part of properly caring for a captive tortoise. I'm saying that they can grow up completely smooth with none of those things. I've seen it! Repeatedly.

For everyone on both sides of this discussion, please understand there is no disrespect here. It is my sincere hope that this discussion, and others like it, will lead to the understanding and eradication of pyramiding. Several people seem to still believe that it is caused by several factors involving poor care. No one has offered any explanation to me about the ones I've seen with my own eyes that have grown up smooth in the poorest of care.

 

[Annieski]

Perhaps the last line of your post offers the key. In the wild, I don't think it is as much "poor care" as it is availability of dietary requirements. It has often been mentioned here that "hatchlings" will not readily eat hays or dried grasses and weeds. As "keepers" - what do we do?--- we offer chicory, endive, spring mix--- to delight ourselves with growing and thriving tortoises in captivity. There is no one on the Sahara to make these provisions in the wild except Mother Nature During the Rainy Season. Best case -- all babies hatch as rainy season ends--- food for all. The scutes on a tortoise carpace are best likened to our fingernails or horse hooves. Functional Keratin is responsible for SKIN[soft keratin] and fingernails[hard keratin]. Keratin is a protien. The cells originate in the dermal layer and upon reaching the surface, they die to form the protective surface layer. Think of a baby's fingernails and how soft they are when newborn. I know there is a difference in the animal kingdom, but the similarities are there. I believe that the main cause of pryamiding is "too rapid growth" for captive torts, with the other factors that have been mentioned," the big four", all contributing to the mix. Even as a hatchling, looking foor food during the "dry season" will give me my UV and D3, exercise, and when I'm exhausted, find a humid burrow one of my cousins left[while looking for food]. Also, could the burrows that are dug, just be dug because there is "the absense of HEAT" and since a Sulcata will pee wherever it wants, create the Humid Hide we believe is "necessary" for a smooth shell?

 

[GBtortoises]

Well said Annieski & Roachman!

 

[zeec]

Zeec, I don't know what the mechanism is for the sky being Blue. I don't know how to explain, in proper scientific terms, why the sky is blue. I CAN tell you that the sky IS blue. Because I haven't yet learned the exact mechanism of why its blue and how to clearly explain it, doesn't mean that it isn't blue. If all that was needed to prevent pyramiding was some calcium and sunshine, then mine wouldn't be pyramided. I have seen tortoises literally all over the world and one thing is consistent: If a hatchling is raised in a humid area, it DOES NOT pyramid. Conversely, if it is raised in a dry area it does. The care, diet, UV, sunshine, exercise, temps and calcium supplementation do not seem to matter. Humidity is the ONLY consistent factor. I don't expect you or anyone else to just take my word for it and that's why I posted the legitimate Austrian study that says almost exactly the same thing that I'm saying. My sulcatas have always had the best of care. Correct thermal gradient, lots of sunshine year round, great varied diet, huge outdoor pens for exercise, huge indoor pens for night time and the occasional cold day, calcium and vitamin supplementation (but, not too much), regular soaks for hydration, etc... I even underfed them to get them to grow slower. They were also, intentionally, kept very dry. I did this because that's what everyone said you were supposed to do back then. I was ignorant. If they are not pyramided because of low humidity, then please explain why they are. Instead of me telling you why humidity prevents pyramiding, why don't you tell me/us why tortoises that have all of your conditions met, still pyramided? If you need more info on my care, I'm happy to give it. As I said before, there is no pride here, I just want the truth about pyramiding to be known.

I thought we can have an intelligent, conscientious discussion and present fact- my mistake. I guess it will always be anecdotal at best. I have presented you with an excact mechanism of how pyramiding based on calcuim and vit D3 works . Beacuse you have had pyramiding despite that, you automatically attribute it to humidity regardless of not having any reasoning why this would happen. There may have been several environmental and dietary factors, You even say you underfed your animals at times! I don't wanna keep beating a dead horse. I don't go around preaching vit D and calcium because it has not been proven yet, and this is the first time i've written about it. But it seems silly to me that when you don't know why something occurs, as in humidity and pyramiding, that you so full heartedly endorse it and preach it to all. It's amazing to me how the same opinions based on fallacies are reiterated from one forum to another. Despite what you think this has a tremendous effect on how tortoises are raised. Already on this forum this happening http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-13143.html. I too have seen many tortoises around the world and have come to a different conclusion, so I don't base my opinions merely on personal experience and anecdotes. I have written, published and reviewed many articles and can tell you without a doubt that the vienna study has many shortcomings, it would be unwise to base any opinion on it.

 

[Tom]

I thought we can have an intelligent, conscientious discussion and present fact- my mistake. I guess it will always be anecdotal at best. I have presented you with an excact mechanism of how pyramiding based on calcuim and vit D3 works . Beacuse you have had pyramiding despite that, you automatically attribute it to humidity regardless of not having any reasoning why this would happen. There may have been several environmental and dietary factors, You even say you underfed your animals at times! I don't wanna keep beating a dead horse. I don't go around preaching vit D and calcium because it has not been proven yet, and this is the first time i've written about it. But it seems silly to me that when you don't know why something occurs, as in humidity and pyramiding, that you so full heartedly endorse it and preach it to all. It's amazing to me how the same opinions based on fallacies is reiterated from one forum to another. Despite what you think this has a tremendous effect on how tortoises are raised. Already on this forum this happening http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-13143.html. I too have seen many tortoises around the world and have come to a different conclusion, so I don't base my opinions merely on personal experience and anecdotes. I have written, published and reviewed many articles and can tell you without a doubt that the vienna study has many shortcomings, it would be unwise to base any opinion on it.
[/quote]

I don't see anything unintelligent about this discussion and I don't see you answering my question. If its not humidity then why did mine pyramid despite ample sunshine and calcium? How can you dismiss such repeated, obvious observations? What is flawed with the Austrian study? Seems perfectly legit to me. Just because someones observations are different than yours does not mean they are not conscientious or intelligent.

 

[zeec]

I thought we can have an intelligent, conscientious discussion and present fact- my mistake. I guess it will always be anecdotal at best. I have presented you with an excact mechanism of how pyramiding based on calcuim and vit D3 works . Beacuse you have had pyramiding despite that, you automatically attribute it to humidity regardless of not having any reasoning why this would happen. There may have been several environmental and dietary factors, You even say you underfed your animals at times! I don't wanna keep beating a dead horse. I don't go around preaching vit D and calcium because it has not been proven yet, and this is the first time i've written about it. But it seems silly to me that when you don't know why something occurs, as in humidity and pyramiding, that you so full heartedly endorse it and preach it to all. It's amazing to me how the same opinions based on fallacies is reiterated from one forum to another. Despite what you think this has a tremendous effect on how tortoises are raised. Already on this forum this happening http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-13143.html. I too have seen many tortoises around the world and have come to a different conclusion, so I don't base my opinions merely on personal experience and anecdotes. I have written, published and reviewed many articles and can tell you without a doubt that the vienna study has many shortcomings, it would be unwise to base any opinion on it.


I don't see anything unintelligent about this discussion and I don't see you answering my question. If its not humidity then why did mine pyramid despite ample sunshine and calcium? How can you dismiss such repeated, obvious observations? What is flawed with the Austrian study? Seems perfectly legit to me. Just because someones observations are different than yours does not mean they are not conscientious or intelligent.

What exactly do you mean by Perfectly "legit" ?.....

Because your animals pyramided with calcium and sunshine that means nothing. How do you know how much calcium the animals where getting? did you measure it?, how much vit D3 from sunshine? was it sunny all the time? did u have them out exactly for the same amount of tim? How do you know if they weren't calcium and vit d deficien? Did you do any blood tests?if so what did you measure and at what intervals? How big of a group did you use? Over what period of time? Maybe you didn't follow them long enough? did you have a control group? What was the humidity every day? what was it at different times of the day?where any of them ill? maybe they were stressed out from not being "overfed." How do you define and quantify pyramiding?Did you measure in millimeters or just looked at it?. How much pyramiding occurred and over what period of time?. which periods showed more pyramiding. anyone can go on and on about this, which was my original point, there are too many confounding factors that looking at blood levels of vit d and bone density scans can give us something objective and irrefutable.

 

[Annieski]

"In my opinion", I think part of the reason this topic[as well as many others],is so confounding, is the LACK of research or study for the specific topics. Even if you have "kept" tortoise for thirty or forty years--- what length of time is that for a species that has survived for thousands, if not millions. Just look at human medicine-- drugs are "tested" for sometimes 15 to 20 years before getting to the general population and even then what is good for 200 may not be ok for 201. I think for a species to have evolved for all these years in the wild, there must be mechanisms in place for adaptation and mutations. I do believe there are "guidelines" that can be followed for every species of being, simplly because in our world-- if there is enough of a demand---it will be met[ ^ patient load = ^ reptile vets] But if there are only limited studies done, pertaining to a specific species, there will only be limited info available, thus, lumping similar species together[birds come under reptiles because of similar characteristics]. That doesn't mean the care is identical--- just similar. I believe Mother Nature's enviornment is way too variable, at any given time, to be able to have a "control group" to prove once and for all the cause of pryamiding. Perhaps that in itself is what prevents it in the wild--- the constant changes and how the animal adapts to the surroundings.

---

Just to add--- looked up the weather in Chad, Africa for today----high 105F low 79F humidity 19% dewpoint 55F
Also looked at some of the temps in other areas that Sulcata are found and not only were temps surprisingly low 84--87F the humidity was just as low 4--9%. Interesting!

 

[Stephanie Logan]

So are we any closer to some practical guidelines for amateur tortoise keepers to provide the best possible microclimate for a smooth healthy shell?

Robert, do you:
1) Measure the density of bone via a Dual energy X-ray absorptiometry (DEXA scan) which would tell you if the pyramided bone is in fact osteoporotic or not by comparing to non pyramided shells in a control group.
2) Measure the amount of vit D 25 hydroxy in both groups. This the most accurate measure of usable vit D
3) Measure the amount of ionized calcuim in both groups.

Have you reached any conclusions that could be made into recommendations for the rest of us? What do you do for your own tortoises?

 

[chadk]

I believe that the main cause of pryamiding is "too rapid growth" for captive torts,

I've seen too many badly pyramided, yet very stunted torts to go for this. Unless somehow rapid growth can equate to not growing...