"I see pyramiding"

[Alaskamike]

I decided to put this in debatable topics because I suppose there are many opinions on this.
This is about a pet peeve of mine that is growing as I become more involved in reading posts and sharing with members – both new and experienced. More than once, I’ve seen comments on pictures – especially a new person’s post that say …

“I see pyramiding”

It irritates me. Okay, so you see pyramiding, so what? What are you trying to accomplish with a stand alone comment like this? It comes across as snide, self-righteous, and just plain mean.

I’ve not been a member of the forum for long, but have been raising torts for some time as pets. Seems I always had one kind or another, especially when I was young.
My first Sulcata was a rescue, and he was very pyramided. Way back then we thought it was solely because of an improper to much protien diet and did not understand the humidity needs, especially during the growth spurts. I did get that he needed constant water available, but never thought to soak him. Though he seemed to be healthy, the damage was done to his shell, and could not be reversed. He ended up getting a good home and is still there doing fine today some 15 years later.

My other peeve with the pyramiding subject is how it has become the benchmark for appropriate husbandry of our tortoises. There is so much emphasis on this that many other important issues seem to pale in comparison. No matter what picture is posted it seems the first thing people want to comment on is the smoothness ( or lack thereof) of the shell, as if this is the end all – be all – of a healthy tort. This perpetuates this obsession with the “perfect shell” and creates a panic in new owners who see even the slightest bit of bumpiness on the shell. Is this really the issue we are making it out to be? Has no one ever seen a perfectly fine and healthy tort with some pyramiding on the shell? This actually happens in the wild also, though I do not have any photos of this, I did see it in Kenya with a wild Sulcata. It has also been reported with Leopards.

The pride that I see in those with torts with perfectly smooth shells is really excessive. And I believe that it is doing a disservice to new people who are doing their best but either got a tort with pyramiding already started or just don’t know any better till they join the forum. I think advice is great, but do we really need to throw neebees into a panic of guilt?

I am certain more new people would post pics of their more mature torts but are worried about the comments.

Please people, at the very least, stop the “I see pyramiding” stand alone comments. It’s rude. "I see stupid people" all the time, but I know better than to comment on it like that.

 

[Robertchrisroph]

I think its just people want the best for tortoise. I don't think they want to hurt anyone feelings.

 

[Jason-AfricanSpined]

Thank you Alaskamike,
I am new to raising tortoises and mine is a rescue after 10+ years of mis-care. My guys shell does show serious signs of neglect but I am doing my best to take care of him and this article was a great find.

 

[Levi the Leopard]

I can agree with you about the initial pyramiding comments and the way it comes across.

I've made it a personal point of mine not to comment on pyramiding or dry/humid husbandry unless they ask. I don't know what they already know and I do feel it is rude to assume they don't know anything.

So, when a newbie posts a photo of a small Leopard with pyramiding I might say something like, "cute little tort. How are you raising him? "
This puts the ball in their court to ask for advice or share what they know.
Some replies come back explaining that they use humidity now...etc. Some replies come back explaining they are still seeking advice. At that point I know my advice is welcome and will share the humid aspect of raising them while still touching on other areas of proper husbandry.

 

[wellington]

I feel it is important to help point out pyramiding and follow up with how to start growing smoother. A lot of people have no,idea that tortoises are suppose to be smooth. Wouldn't it be nice if one day, all tortoises were smooth? This forum is to help new owners to learn the proper way to raise a tortoise, not just poo poo it off and say only nice things. That doesn't help anyone and there is another forum that will cover that end. This forum, thankfully educates people. My tortoises are also pyramided, found this place too late. They are healthy, but they don't look like what they are suppose too.
As for the wild sullys and leopards pyramided, that has been gone over several times a few years back. I don't remember the exact wording, but basically, the pyramided ones, are most likely pets let go.
I don't believe I have ever just said your tort is pyramided, without offering suggestions. I will point it out every time, and I will continue to do so. So, fair warning, don't read my post.
I will also point newbies to the right threads to read and make any suggestions right away on what they have wrong, yes even their intro thread. You never know when they will come back and ask, or if ever and you have no idea what or where they did any research.
Many members don't come back, they are here to ask one question, or they come once in a while just to read, not post. Educate them while they are here. Besides, it's the tortoise that pays if we don't.

 

[wellington]

I can agree with you about the initial pyramiding comments and the way it comes across.

I've made it a personal point of mine not to comment on pyramiding or dry/humid husbandry unless they ask. I don't know what they already know and I do feel it is rude to assume they don't know anything.

So, when a newbie posts a photo of a small Leopard with pyramiding I might say something like, "cute little tort. How are you raising him? "
This puts the ball in their court to ask for advice or share what they know.
Some replies come back explaining that they use humidity now...etc. Some replies come back explaining they are still seeking advice. At that point I know my advice is welcome and will share the humid aspect of raising them while still touching on other areas of proper husbandry.

I don't agree Heather. If they don't come back, the tortoise pays. Too many members, since I joined, which wasn't just recently, have thanked the members of this forum for informing them of what they were doing wrong and it has been done, since I joined, probably before, at the moment you see a pic. Never know when another chance will arise.

 

[leigti]

If a person is taking care of their tortoise to the best of their knowledge or has received a tortoise with issues it may be very disheartening to hear about it after you make your first post. Sometimes it seems like only pictures of "pretty" tortoises are truly welcome. others are met with a stream of comments about what is wrong with the tortoise.Ido agree that information and suggestions should be offered but if it iis accusatory or preachy the person will not come back.

 

[littleginsu]

I completely understand what you are saying Alaskamike and perhaps the subject of pyramiding could be broached more diplomatically. I disagree about the notion that pyramiding is not a vehicle of poor care. Pyramiding is not a chronic, unavoidable disease and is indicative of poor husbandry whether from the current or previous owner... and a logical deduction is there could very well be other health concerns or ailments that we cannot detect without extensive tests, as tortoises are masters at concealing illness.

So, while a bumpy or smooth shell is not necessarily the end all be all, it certainly is an indicator that some variables need adjustment in order to ensure an overall healthy tortoise.

 

[johnsonnboswell]

Often someone posts a picture of their animal asking how it looks. Often they suspect there is a problem but they're not sure. I take that as an invitation to make the observation that I see pyramiding or growth irregularities when I do. It's not a condemnation of husbandry practice on my part, it's an observation of what I see.

If someone were to post a picture but didn't ask, I'd probably stay mum.

Why is the pyramiding observation worse than commenting on substrate or dryness or other habitat problems? An implied criticism of care?

 

[wellington]

If a person is taking care of their tortoise to the best of their knowledge or has received a tortoise with issues it may be very disheartening to hear about it after you make your first post. Sometimes it seems like only pictures of "pretty" tortoises are truly welcome. others are met with a stream of comments about what is wrong with the tortoise.Ido agree that information and suggestions should be offered but if it iis accusatory or preachy the person will not come back.

There are actually more pictures of pyramided tortosies posted then not. It's not a matter off pretty or not. It's a matter of health.

 

[Tom]

Why are you here Mike? Simple question.

 

[wellington]

I actually dislike the opposite of this thread. A person posts a pic of a tort or enclosure and everyone poo, poos it, says how cute s/he is, or how nice the enclosure looks, totally leading the person on to thinking everything is okay. While the whole time, everyone is avoiding what is wrong and unhealthy for the tortoise.
I'm here to learn how to better care for my tortoises and to pass on what I have learned. Not to make friends and have smoke blown where it doesn't belong, while the whole time my tort could be suffering. If I make friends along the way, which I have, that's great. If I offend people, don't mean to, will apologize, but not my biggest concern. The concern is to better the life of tortoises, period. There are too many bad sites out there poo pooing things along. I didn't come and stay here for that. I also would have liked my leopard to look like a leopard is suppose too.
You wouldnt want to buy a purebred big money German Shepard that has hair like a Puli. Does corded hair make him unhealthy, probably not. Is a pyramided tortoise unhealthy, could vary well be and continue to be if correct information is not given to the care taker of that tortoise. It's worked fine since I have joined and for many years before that!

 

[leigti]

I don't think that commenting on pyramiding is any different than commenting on dryness, water bowls, etc.it does seem to be one of the most obvious indications of care issues past or present. But I would hope that before any of us starts commenting we TRY to remember what it was like to be new and either not having a clue or not realizing that we were doing something wrong due to poor information we have received somewhere else.I read quite a few forum type websites before I realized this one was the best. I just think a little kindness and understanding can go along way.

 

[wellington]

I don't think that commenting on pyramiding is any different than commenting on dryness, water bowls, etc.it does seem to be one of the most obvious indications of care issues past or present. But I would hope that before any of us starts commenting we TRY to remember what it was like to be new and either not having a clue or not realizing that we were doing something wrong due to poor information we have received somewhere else.I read quite a few forum type websites before I realized this one was the best. I just think a little kindness and understanding can go along way.

I agree on trying to be as nice about it as possible. However, don't poo poo them, when you know the tort is paying for that bad advice. Let them know right away. Again, who knows when or if they will come back. Some not for weeks, some months, some only when they are trying to sell or buy something. I do remember when I was new and thankfully, I was told the right way of doing things. Pyramiding, is not the right thing, it's not natural, it's due to our lack of knowledge or ignorance or neglect and in some cases still today, by breeders that know better, pure laziness. The owner has the right to know the kind of harm they are doing to their tort, to most likely no fault of their own.

 

[Alaskamike]

Why are you here Mike? Simple question.

I guess I'll answer this one Tom, since directed to me. I enjoy learning and sharing - both. Plus torts have always intrigued me since a boy.

I think what you imply is that learning and sharing are the purpose of the forum. Nothing in my initial post disagrees with either goal.

My objection is the attitude in which it is done. That is all.

I do not disagree with sharing info, teaching, research, and celebrating success. Explaining why we do what we do. I just have read several posts recently that came across as rude, self righteous and judgmental.

That is all I point out.

 

[Tom]

But I would hope that before any of us starts commenting we TRY to remember what it was like to be new and either not having a clue or not realizing that we were doing something wrong due to poor information we have received somewhere else.

I DO remember what being ignorant and being taught the wrong information was like. It was awful. Frustrating, infuriating, confusing, etc... I almost quit keeping tortoises entirely because NOTHING "they" said worked. My tortoises suffered the consequences of my (and their) ignorance. I feel a tremendous sense of guilt over what I have done in the past. There are those who say it wasn't my fault. I was just doing what the books, vets, breeders, and "experts" said to do. Still, I am the one who did it. It is this guilt that drives me to help the people who have not yet learned what I have learned. I want to help them save their tortoises from the same fate that mine were subjected to and I want to do it as early as possible. In the case of hatchlings and small babies, even one day can mean the difference between life and death. I agree that the effort needs to be made to be tactful and considerate, but MOST important to me, is getting the info across ASAP.

On that note, yes, if all else is good, pyramiding can be described as a cosmetic flaw in an otherwise healthy tortoise, BUT pyramiding is an indicator that something in the husbandry is off. Pyramiding can be a visual indicator that the tortoise is being kept in too dry of an environment and not being well hydrated enough. While pyramiding may be cosmetic, the things that cause and contribute to it can be life threatening to the tortoise.

So should we pussyfoot around and coddle people's feelings at the expense of a tortoises health? I say no. No we should not. Should we try to deliver this message to beginners and new people in a polite, friendly and tactful way? Yes. Absolutely.

 

[Tom]

I enjoy learning and sharing - both. Plus torts have always intrigued me since a boy.

It seems we are here for the same reasons.

It also seems like you were attempting to point out a bit more than rudeness, but if that was your intent, we share the goal of reducing or eliminating rudeness too. If my goal is to help tortoises, rudeness does not accomplish that.

Attitude adjustment is one thing, and its one thing we agree upon.

Pyramiding, how it happens, what it means to each of us, and what we do and say about it, is another discussion entirely, I think.

 

[leigti]

Why are you here Mike? Simple question.

I don't quite understand the purpose or point of this question, sorry Tom.

 

[littleginsu]

Leigti, I obviously do not speak for Tom... I think it was semi-rhetorical to illustrate that we are all here to learn from each other.

 

[Levi the Leopard]

I want to get the focus off the newbie posters and point out this example..

A fellow posted a photo of his adult sized Redfoot tortoise soaking in a mud hole. A darling picture too... But a very pyramided Redfoot. Right away he was hounded with multiple posts on how much pyramiding the tort had and what he needed to do to "fix it". He came back to the thread to explain that he knew very well how to raise them properly but this particular one was an adult rescue now living the good life.. He simply wanted to share the cute mud photo. If I remember correctly, he shared additional photos on the habitats, other smooth torts he had raised and was very offended that all anyone could focus on in his post was the pyramiding and etc...kinda like what mike is referring to with this thread.
Although I don't know if I could find the thread again....it was this thread that caused me to change my approach with pyramiding here on TFO.

I hear you @wellington that your trying to speak up while you have the chance to...but I also think that more flies come to sugar than vinegar so, I personally ask for info first...
It could be a very knowledgeable, respectable person sharing a photo of a rescue tort and I don't want to fly off disrespectfully at them tooting my own horn.

By us taking our different approaches people will still be reached. Those with tough skin will take well to the advice head on..those that need a more gentle approach will take well to those who, maybe like me, feel them out first.