"I see pyramiding"

[aztortoisegal]

I want to ask something that I hope isn't off topic, but, in the case of a rescue situation, where a tortoise was terribly cared for, neglected, malnourished, etc., how long do the visible signs of that take to heal? Like if you rescued one that had terrible pyramiding, how long would it take for that to go away? Or does it remain with the tortoise for life, and a relatively healthy tortoise will always bear the marks of previously bad care?

 

[Alaskamike]

I'm not the most experienced to answer this. I only had one Sulcata I rescued that had a pyramided shell. I kept him less than a year and reformed him. But .... There are so many variables it would depend. Age , severity, and steps taken to correct all play a factor.
I rescued a young sully last month. He / she is 2.3 lbs. said to be 2 yrs old ( but I doubt it) and shows pyramiding. I'm going to document care and changes to see what happens. That thread is in the Sulcata section.
For sure, some improvement will be shown.
Good fortune

 

[Yourlocalpoet]

I want to ask something that I hope isn't off topic, but, in the case of a rescue situation, where a tortoise was terribly cared for, neglected, malnourished, etc., how long do the visible signs of that take to heal? Like if you rescued one that had terrible pyramiding, how long would it take for that to go away? Or does it remain with the tortoise for life, and a relatively healthy tortoise will always bear the marks of previously bad care?

Pyramiding cannot 'go away'. It's not reversible. New growth can be smooth and this can change how the shell looks, but it depends on the severity of the Pyramiding.
Generally, what has already been done is done.

Apparently my iPhone believes that Pyramiding is a proper noun.

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[Maggie Cummings]

Not to get off the Pyramid thread ......but still inline with wild smooth specimens

The desert tortoise is able to live where ground temperatures may exceed 140 degrees F because of its ability to dig underground burrows three to six feet deep to escape the heat of summer and the cold of winter. It is one of the most elusive inhabitants of the desert, spending up to 98% of its time underground. Desert tortoises spend November through February in a torpid or dormant state in their underground burrows.
Their most active time is in the spring when they will forage for food. During the hottest, driest periods of the year, these tortoises conserve the water already stored in their bodies. This is especially important in the hot, dry Mojave Desert summers.
Much of the tortoise’s water intake comes from moisture in the grasses and wildflowers they consume in the spring. To get the most out of the rain that falls so infrequently in their habitat, desert tortoises dig basins in the soil to catch rainwater. The tortoises always remember where these basins are, and may be found waiting by them when rain appears imminent. But this still makes one wonder where the humidity would be around at a constant while young for smooth carapace growth.
Reproduction
Females do not breed until they are 15 to 20 years old. When hatchlings emerge from eggs they are approximately 2 inches long. Only about 2 percent of hatchlings survive to become adults.
Mating Season: Late summer to early fall
Gestation: 8-10 months
Clutch size: 4-6 eggs
and some fun fact.....Adult desert tortoises can survive a year or more without access to water!
http://blogs.sandiegozoo.org/2009/04/29/desert-tortoise-team/

I have had this guy since 1973

Wow, In my experience they lose that color and become grayish brown. He's beautiful...

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Maggie,

I am going to simply voice a long nagging question in regards to this statement that I have seen from time to time....and please do not read into it in any way other than an inquiring mind (not expecting you to know the answer, but just one of those hmmm? questions--okay).

With this species (CDT) specifically, they have very little access and opportunity to regular sources of water, right? They are known to retain water in their bodies/system for as long as 2-4 years (the same fluid/liquid product that was once water) when there is drought.....there is much caution taken to not startle a CDT due to them reactively voiding their bodies of all fluid and in turn no longer having that needed fluid to live, right? So, to think that a CDT would spend time repeatedly peeing in their burrow always makes me scratch my head...why in the world would a tortoise void this essential liquid from their body over and over again without a reliable source to re up the water? Just does not make sense...to me.

I have to also say that when ever I have seen the CDTs here (just as an example point) pee, it is always near where they take in new water/fluid....every time....when they are taking in the water or consuming a wet food, about half way through--they begin to pee as they fill up with the new.....

You are completely and totally correct. I think I was just mouthing old out dated information...or I got Sulcata and CDT confused in my thinking...

 

[littleginsu]

In the end, I feel everyone here means no harm and unless you are a gifted novelist, it is sometimes very hard to not come across accusatory or brash. I have been know to take things personally but when I have someone else read it they see nothing offensive... So it is a delicate dance between writer and reader, urgency and assholery.

I know I will subconsciously take this constructive criticism to heart and chose my words wisely... If all else fails, use lots of smiley/fun emoticons. Seriously, I own a website that has a forum and, I kid you not, people take bad news or stern words so much better when you use smileys.

 

[Benjamin]

No mention of overfeeding? Too much of a good thing can cause problems.
How about the scenario that animals kept outdoors will have their shells worn by the elements.
I personally don't care for animals that have shells that appear to be made of plastic...

 

[jeffjeff]

I'm still fairly new here but i found every one to be most helpful and welcoming. Personally i prefer people to be straight. If i'm doing some thing wrong tell me. I wont take offence unless its just a plain nasty comment meant to criticize. There's no need to be nasty or aggressive with people it achieves nothing except to alienate people and possible stop them from sticking around long enough to learn from other people with far more experience. That said I can understand people being defensive if they feel like their being attacked. I belive people who genuinely want to learn will ask questions and take advise the way it is meant but unfortunately there are those who think they know it all who take any advise or tips as criticism and take offence no matter how its worded. Also there plenty people out there who's only intention it to cause trouble and upset people.

 

[Benjamin]

Tom, why don't you respond to my post directly.?

 

[Tom]

I'm still fairly new here but i found every one to be most helpful and welcoming. Personally i prefer people to be straight. If i'm doing some thing wrong tell me. I wont take offence unless its just a plain nasty comment meant to criticize. There's no need to be nasty or aggressive with people it achieves nothing except to alienate people and possible stop them from sticking around long enough to learn from other people with far more experience. That said I can understand people being defensive if they feel like their being attacked. I belive people who genuinely want to learn will ask questions and take advise the way it is meant but unfortunately there are those who think they know it all who take any advise or tips as criticism and take offence no matter how its worded. Also there plenty people out there who's only intention it to cause trouble and upset people.

May I ask a question that pertains to this discussion? If when you first joined, you mentioned that your enclosure was just wide enough for your tortoise to turn around, or that your tortoise "was still able to turn around" in its enclosure, and I offered some threads to help out while mentioning that I thought your enclosure was too small, or "WAYYYY to small", would that offend you? Would you find that nasty or critical in a bad way?

I ask because someone else recently did find it offensive. They thought I was "scolding" them and that my "manners sucked". How do you see it?

 

[Tom]

Tom, why don't you respond to my post directly.?

I don't see anything I feel the need to respond to. If you and Turtlepete would like to have a conversation perhaps we could start a new thread?

 

[phebe121]

I really think it needs to be pointed out maybe in a nicer way saying hay how often do u soke your tort see if tgere doing everything right before your like theres pyramiding but on that note i would have never known if someone didnt say anything to me i got them that way i didnt get to see them before i got them so i got to correct it before it was out of control and there shell is smothing out and they seam to be happy and i care for them properly now and all thanks to the advice of all these wouderful people on here

 

[jeffjeff]

May I ask a question that pertains to this discussion? If when you first joined, you mentioned that your enclosure was just wide enough for your tortoise to turn around, or that your tortoise "was still able to turn around" in its enclosure, and I offered some threads to help out while mentioning that I thought your enclosure was too small, or "WAYYYY to small", would that offend you? Would you find that nasty or critical in a bad way?

I ask because someone else recently did find it offensive. They thought I was "scolding" them and that my "manners sucked". How do you see it?

no i wouldn't be offended nor do i see it as scolding or offensive in any way. i would take it as advise and would believe that you where trying get across just how much too small the enclosure really was and thank you for taking the time to offer help and share advise. i also think any one using the words "just able" or "still able" would be well aware that the enclosure was way too small and had been for some time.

 

[Benjamin]

I don't see anything I feel the need to respond to. If you and Turtlepete would like to have a conversation perhaps we could start a new thread?

My interpretation of this response is that you may be in De Nile that any other factors could contribute to prymiding other than lack of humidity...

 

[Star-of-India]

My interpretation of this response is that you may be in De Nile that any other factors could contribute to prymiding other than lack of humidity...

Whenever this topic comes up it appears to me that many posters are conflating pyramiding with the seemingly similar, but very different shell deformities seen in MBD. This conflation may be unintended, but I believe it's occurring nonetheless.

MBD is all about diet and UV exposure, or lack thereof. The bony deformities seen in MBD are reminiscent of pyramiding, but are an entirely different and unrelated phenomenon. MBD is of course not 'too much of a good thing,' but actually too much of a bad thing.

I'm convinced that you can't feed tortoises too much as long as it is a well balanced diet, the torts are well hydrated and have sufficient space to roam. I have had some tort raising experience over the last 50 years, but only on accessing this forum this year have I seen such great and logical information.

As to veterinarians giving bad advice, well I'm not a vet, but I am an MD. My specialty is emergency medicine. When you come to me, my knowledge regarding your emergency condition surpasses that of your regular MD. Your regular MD's expertise is hopefully stronger than mine regarding any chronic problems you have.

The same goes for vets, the average vet specializes in 'small animals,' but that is essentially dogs, cats and other small mammals. The others specialize largely in 'large animals,' meaning horses, cattle and pigs. I don't see reptiles, much less tortoises, in either background. That doesn't mean that there aren't capable vets who haven't specialized in reptiles, but they are much more likely to parrot back outdated info picked up along the way without factual basis. We MD's do it all the time! Oops, I wasn't supposed to admit that! ;-)

 

[Yourlocalpoet]

No mention of overfeeding? Too much of a good thing can cause problems.
How about the scenario that animals kept outdoors will have their shells worn by the elements.
I personally don't care for animals that have shells that appear to be made of plastic...

I don't know what you mean by that, Benjamin.
Tortoises are supposed to be outside, having shells worn from the elements is just as normal as worn from age. Pyramiding is not public enemy number one on this forum because its aesthetically displeasing; it's because it's not normal.

I'm inferring from this post that you mean a perfectly smooth shell looks plastic? Or did I miss something?



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[Abdulla6169]

I don't know what you mean by that, Benjamin.
Tortoises are supposed to be outside, having shells worn from the elements is just as normal as worn from age. Pyramiding is not public enemy number one on this forum because its aesthetically displeasing; it's because it's not normal.

I'm inferring from this post that you mean a perfectly smooth shell looks plastic? Or did I miss something?



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Maybe he means animals with worn out shells?

 

[FLINTUS]

Ok, let's get rid of the term 'pyramiding' in this thread, and call it abnormal shell growth, which is any shell growth different to what they would naturally have in the wild.
Then under ASG, you can definitely include overfeeding, lighting, temperatures and diet in general into the mix as well, there is plenty of evidence for this, and to maintain a 100% healthy shell there are other factors involved as well, which is why I don't like the 'humidity is the answer, the only answer,' approach that many promote on here, if you see what I mean Tom in particular. Humidity does have a role in a healthy shell, but many wild shells also pyramid. Anyways, I'll be going to rural Kenya next year so I'll see if I can find some pardalis burrows in particular.

 

[ascott]

You are completely and totally correct. I think I was just mouthing old out dated information...or I got Sulcata and CDT confused in my thinking...

My dear Maggie....if it were not for folks from the "old day ways" there would not be this wonderful Forum....period. Now, with that being said---I have to add to this thread one other thing that makes me cringe....I know that as humans we are always on the hunt for the "new way" the "current way" and in seeing these claims--there is the negative vibe that in some way there is something wrong with the old ways....gosh that annoys me....the "old ways" are the basis for all there is now....without the "old ways" most of the turtles and tortoise around now in their old age would not be here.....yes, there is always room for new thinking, new keeping---but if anyone of those people who spew, "well that was the old way of thinking" would close their pie holes and seriously take in the basics--there would be so many more healthy tortoise now a days...

Maggie, I love to hear what you say----I value what you say and have to offer---there is no way I would ever think you as incorrect---you my dear are a pioneer of this passion....your sister Yvonne is also of great value and worth and you two are a buffet of wealth....please do not ever change the basics you offer....I read something once that you offered up to a thread....it was about a failing tort someone was heartbroken over, the prospect of that baby dying----it was a common situation-- the tort would just lay there, would not eat, would not participate in its life, you were offering some things to try--and one of those things was to not let that baby sleep its life away, if necessary--pick the baby up, carry it around, hell--put the baby in their pocket and make it participate....this is the type of information that is essential, this is the type of hope, this is the "coat tail" of your will that you offered up to that person--for them to lean on you and in turn let that baby lean on their will until the baby could find its own will---that is what I took from your share....that is invaluable, immeasurable advice that some of the "new ways" would never have offered....so, please continue to offer your help, your "old ways" of help....your purported "out dated way" of information....these are the things that make a real difference to people who sit in their home, looking at a baby tortoise and who feel completely defeated and overwhelmed....where there is hope there is always chance.....when I first joined this forum, your take was that some babies just don't make it, and this is true...you never chalked it up to "hatchling failure syndrome"....which is just a fancy term for "some babies just don't make it".....

Oh and another thing...there is absolutely no way that a tortoise can over eat is that food item is grass and weeds growing in the yard...now, if you offer grocery store junk always and offer too much of that --then yes, you can overfeed----but even if you overfeed too much grocery store stuff...the dome of the shell will not outgrow the plastron----just won't....there is something else going on....just my opinion.

Also, vets are too overrated....I mean this in regards specifically here to reptiles....unless a vet has a special interest and special training in reptiles, their diagnosing skills for reptile ailments just is not impressive....and if you have a vet that has a special interest paired with actual tortoise hosting--then you have a vet that likely has some first hand impressive information....again, just my opinion....okay all---talk at ya later, off to work now Have a great day...

 

[domalle]

You see? This is the sort of post that makes me crazy. How many russians have you raised and cared for over the years? How many have you free fed (too much according to you) and how many have you intentionally under fed? From what I have seen you have one russian tortoise and you have a few months of tortoise experience. Please correct me if I am wrong. You certainly have something going on there, but to blame it on an excess of high fiber weedy food and to be so certain about it, makes no sense. Now you are here posting this info as if it is fact and trying to teach people a lesson. I have raised and cared for dozens of russians over the last few decades. I currently have 20. I have always free fed every single one of them, and currently free feed mine now, as well as letting them graze as much as they want daily, and I have never experienced the problem you are having. In fact my young russians were in 60x18" indoor enclosures, so even smaller than your enclosure, and not a single one out of 20 is experiencing the problem that yours is having.

When I say they can't be overfed the right stuff, I base it on more than 3 decades of russian experience with dozens of animals housed in a wide variety of circumstances. When you say they can be overfed, you base in on a few months with one tortoise. Do you see why this would make someone want to comment? Now people will say that I've been too harsh and I'm going to scare you away, but this sort of thing needs to be pointed out. It needs to be dealt with. I just cannot leave misinformation hanging out there for people to read and say nothing about it.

Leigti, I think you know by now that I like you and appreciate your contributions to the forum. You've been around a while, so I don't think a post like this will scare you off, but what is a person to do when they see erroneous info reported as fact and given in the form of advice to others. What is a person to do when they know the person asserting such things does not have the background to back up there assertions? I mean you no disrespect and do not intend to hurt your feelings. My contention is with the tortoise advise you are dispensing and what it is based upon. This is like Ascott (who I like very much) dispensing info on how to raise sulcatas even though she has never raised a single one in any fashion. Drives me batty. How does a person know that an animal should be raised one way or another, when they have not done it in any way at all?

Conclusions are good, but may I request that we don't jump to them based on hardly any info, or in contrast to a whole lotta contradictory info?