SeaWorld prepares to put trainers back in water with killer whales

[Kalina]

B K: There will always be environmental issues while humans inhabit this earth unfortunately... :-(
As far as the mortality rate, there are older killer whales documented living in the wild, without the filtered tank water, without the drug laced fish and without veterinary care... Lolita is the last orca left from the famous Puget Sound round ups... Her family members who were caught alongside her have all died many, many years ago... I don't think any of them lasted 10 years in captivity (don't quote me on that, not done enough research yet) it's probably less than 10 years.
Lolita is a very special girl.. I believe she is waiting for freedom, something great is in store for this wonderful whale, she hasn't lived this long to die in a tank like the rest of them.

Here's an update: Activist are offering 3 mil for Lolita http://www.examiner.com/animal-advo...save-ailing-captive-whale?fb_comment=30509026

Will post this on Lolita thread too.

 

[Candy]

An Update on Lolita
March 7th, 2011 | Author: Blakeleigh

What a stressful weekend. Not knowing if your friend is alive and healthy? Thank you to all the dedicated individuals who waited outside (and inside) the Miami Seaquarium to provide updates as they happened. Unfortunately, the MSQ is keeping everyone outside in the dark when it comes to the health of their “most valued” animal. According to a recent report (HERE) from a local activist at Earthrace Conservation – Miami, lights have been on in her stadium at night and it appears that she is under 24/7 watch. If she is truly ill, yet responding well to antibiotics as MSQ’s recording claims, then why all the secrecy?
Lolita Stadium at Night

Photo Courtesy of an Anonymous ECO Warrior, 12AM, 3/6/11

Around 2PM yesterday, a chopper landed at the MSQ. Eyewitnesses saw 4 men with black backpacks rush towards the Whale Stadium. The chopper took off almost a minute later.

When I contacted CBS to inquire about what was really happening at the MSQ, I was informed that they had an unconfirmed drowning of 3 children in or near the park and police were on route. They had no information on the helicopter. They advised a reporter was on route to the scene.

I contacted MSQ directly and after waiting for roughly 5 minutes on hold, my call was finally answered. I asked about the chopper and reports of children drowning. I was informed that both were untrue. I advised that there were eyewitnesses who saw the chopper landing. I was then put on hold and my call was answered by a manager at the aquarium. The manager assured me that no chopper had landed and no children had drowned. When I asked how Lolita was doing, she advised she was transferring me to a hotline to explain her health condition.

MSQ denies that a chopper ever landed. Yet here is the proof:
MSQ Helicopter Landing 3/6/11

Photo Courtesy of Chris Lagergren, 3/6/11

The questions remain the same. Why was this chopper landing at MSQ? Who were the men who jumped out of it from? What are they there for? Are they Sea World vets? Why is MSQ lying about this? Is she really sick? Is she being sold/transferred? Why is Mr. Hertz (owner of MSQ) turning down the proposal of her retirement (A draft of her retirement proposal can be found on the Orca Network’s site HERE)?

Mr. Hertz has been offered $3,000,000 for her to be retired from performing and released to what experts say is the most humane home for her (See HERE). She was only purchased for a mere $6,000 and her life insurance is only worth $1,000,000. Next to Corky II, she is the oldest captive orca, living in the oldest/dilapidated tank in the United States. Please Mr. Hertz, have some compassion! If she is very sick, she will receive the best veterinary care through the Orca Network and other outlets. If she is sicker than you are claiming and does die of this illness, at least it will be in her native home, with her family, and where she truly belongs.

---

Someone posted the picture of the helicopter that landed at the Seaquarium, but it won't come out in this post, sorry.

 

[Kalina]

For those interested, another SW trainer interview part 2 released today.

http://theorcaproject.wordpress.com...view-former-seaworld-trainer-samantha-berg-2/

Last month, The Orca Project was fortunate to have spent some time with Samantha Berg, M.Ac., L.Ac., Dipl.Ac., a former SeaWorld animal trainer, for an information-packed interview where we discussed the hidden culture of orca trainer safety, her time at SeaWorld Orlando, working alongside belugas and killer whales as well as Tilikum’s arrival in Orlando. Samantha shared her experiences of viewing wild beluga whales along the Alaskan coast and also explored the topic of polar bears, both in captivity and in the wild. If you missed Part 1, you can see it HERE.

Today, Samantha joins us for Part 2 where we’ll take a look into SeaWorld’s secretive breeding program and uncover the “educational” value of marine mammals on display. We’ll also go into the details of why SeaWorld’s proposed safety improvements will not work, and take an explosive, in-depth look at what happened the day of Dawn Brancheau’s tragic death. This is an interview you will not want to miss!

TOP: Welcome back to part 2 of our interview with former SeaWorld Trainer, Samantha Berg. It’s nice to talk with you again, Samantha. Last month, we touched on several topics, including your experiences of working with marine mammals at SeaWorld and your perspective on wildlife up in Alaska. We thank you for your insight! Today we’d like to dig a little deeper into SeaWorld’s proposed safety improvements as well as their “educational” programs. And later, we’ll take a close look at what happened on the day of Dawn Brancheau’s tragic death. But first, we’d like to talk a little bit about SeaWorld’s breeding program. As we know, Tilikum has become the primary breeding stud for orcas in captivity. With the relatively small number of killer whales housed in marine parks, it’s alarming that Tilikum’s genes are so prominent in the population. Thanks to the help of our friend Wendy Cooke, we’ve been able reconstruct Tilikum’s family tree: CLICK LINK ABOVE FOR FAMILY TREE.

TOP: At The Orca Project, we are aware that your undergraduate training at Cornell University was in animal sciences. Can you comment on the ethics and continued use of Tilikum as a breeding stud for SeaWorld?

SAM: Sure. At Cornell University, I learned quite a bit about the meat and dairy cattle industries while studying animal sciences.

The bull cattle being used as breeding studs had to go through years of genetic testing to be accepted into the breeding program. I believe this is standard practice in any reputable breeding program for animals such as horses or dogs.

There are two parts to any successful breeding program. The first is the collections and insemination aspect. The second, more important part is thorough genetic testing through multiple generations to ensure that the semen being used is not passing on unwanted traits or genetic defects to future animals.

(You can read more about this topic HERE from The Orca Project)

Since SW is limited by the small number of captive male orcas in its collection, it’s not like any genetic testing they could do would be meaningful. They have the whales they have, and they are forced to use those whales for breeding. The whole point of a legitimate breeding program is not just to make MORE animals, but to strengthen and diversify the gene pool, thus producing animals that are more resilient, more resistant to disease, and which display the specific kinds of traits that are considered to be desirable.

For dairy cattle, that might be greater milk production or percentage of butter fat in the milk. For dogs it might be temperament, speed or agility, smell acuity etc. For animals intended to live their lives in captivity, you’d think the breeders would be concerned about the temperament and health of the whales in their breeding pool.

Tilikum has sired many calves that either died prematurely, or ended up having health issues. In two cases, Tilikum’s sperm resulted in stillborn calves that caused their mothers to die as well. Not only that, but Tilikum has also clearly demonstrated aggression towards humans on at least 3 occasions that resulted in death.

Speaking of aggression, there is one whale in the SeaWorld collection that is related to both Tilikum and Keto, the Loro Parque whale who killed Alexis. Kohanna’s recent calf, Adan, is Keto’s son and Tilikum’s grandson.

Why would anyone consider breeding an animal that has demonstrated extreme aggression towards humans on numerous occasions? Especially when they know without a doubt that this animal’s progeny will likely continue to interact with humans?

SeaWorld is producing more whales, but there’s no regard for the health of the whales that they are creating or for the safety of the trainers that will interact with those whales.

Fourteen out of twenty-five whales living in SeaWorld’s collection (56%!) are currently carrying Tilikum’s genes. I think you could say that SeaWorld has created more of an “inbreeding program” which jeopardizes the health of their population and their human trainers.

In my opinion, continuing to breed Tilikum is unethical based upon his known aggression towards humans, the number of stillborns he has produced, the two breeding moms that have died giving birth to his calves, and the lack of genetic diversity it perpetuates in the SeaWorld gene pool. Not only is it unethical, it is down right irresponsible. No reputable breeding program in any other animal industry would continue to use this animal as their main breeder considering this information.

TOP: Sam, it is known that you’ve provided at least one written statement to OSHA regarding Sea World’s intention to use “spare air” as a new safety measure. Can you briefly tell us what spare air is, and why SeaWorld would be looking into using this technology? Also, explain briefly why it wouldn’t work.

SAM: “Spare Air” is a term that refers to gear that could be given to trainers to give them access to additional air (oxygen) to prevent them from drowning in the event they are trapped in a pool underwater – either due to an accident (hitting their head and falling in a pool) or due to an animal actively preventing a trainer from exiting the water, as in Keltie, Dawn’s and Alexis’ cases.

Here is a summary of why this technology is impractical for SeaWorld orca trainers:

1. Spare air requires trainers to carry additional equipment and gear which could give the whales something else to grab or bite.

2. At Shamu Stadium in Orlando, the pressure at the bottom of the main show pool is double the pressure at the surface. A trainer taking a breath of compressed air at the bottom of the pool could be at risk of a lung over-expansion injury if a whale decided to take them rapidly to the surface without giving the trainer enough time to exhale. So, spare air could actually kill a trainer instead of save their lives in the event of an attack.

3. The sound of the equipment could agitate or excite the whales, causing unpredictable behavior in an already unstable situation.

4. Killer whale attacks are often fast and violent. Although Keltie’s official cause of death was hypothermia and drowning, the autopsy reports from Alex and Dawn clearly show massive amounts of physical trauma. Therefore, spare air would not have saved Alex or Dawn, and spare air wouldn’t do anything for hypothermia either.

5. In Keltie’s situation, trainers tried to throw her a life ring and she couldn’t get to it because the whales kept her away. I believe that trainers tried to throw Dawn a spare air canister as she resurfaced following the initial take-down… but they were unsuccessful. But even if all three trainers went in the water with scuba gear on or with a smaller spare air canister with mouth piece and regulator already on their person, they likely wouldn’t have been able to access it. View any of the YouTube videos that show the speed and violence of a killer whale attack, and it quickly becomes obvious that the trainer is able to do very little that the whale doesn’t want them to do.

6. Captive whales have been known to ingest objects in the pool either accidentally or intentionally. Kanduke, a male killer whale at SeaWorld had a navigation buoy in his stomach which was found after his death. Nami, the Japanese killer whale who recently died in January 2011, was found to have 180 lbs of rocks in her stomach. Spare air equipment could endanger the lives of the whales if they swallowed a tank or a hose. CLICK LINK ABOVE FOR VIDEO OF SW TRAINER BEING ATTACKED BY KILLER WHALE, FORTUNATELY HE IS ABLE TO CALM WHALE DOWN.

TOP: Sam, you once told us that your biggest regret at SeaWorld was presenting false information to the young kids that came to SW for education shows or with their families. Can you expand on that comment?

SAM: As I said before, I know a lot more about killer whales in captivity and killer whales in the wild than I did when I worked at SeaWorld. Part of my job at SeaWorld was to narrate “educational” shows for school children visiting the park.

The educational shows differed from the regular shows in that there was a little less spectacular behavior (trainers jumping off of whales) and more time spent teaching children about whale anatomy, habitat and “fun facts” such as “how many pounds of fish does Shamu eat in one day?”

The facts I was trained to present to the children were made up of only the biased information that SeaWorld provided. So, if someone wanted to know why one of the killer whale’s dorsal fins was bent, I would be instructed to reply that killer whale dorsal fins are often bent in the wild. Of course we now know that some dorsal bending does occur in the wild, but complete dorsal collapse (as discussed in a recent paper published by former trainers Drs. John Jett & Jeffrey Ventre) is nearly exclusive to captivity.

The statistics I was told to provide about the lifespan of captive killer whales vs. wild killer whales were also false. (Again, see John and Jeff’s paper for more on this topic)

Even more ironically, after Dawn was killed, I was asked to speak at a local high school about what happened at SeaWorld, and I was only able to tell the children what I knew from when I worked there. I didn’t do any independent research prior to giving that talk, because I assumed the information I had from SeaWorld was accurate. This assumption turned out not to be a grave misjudgment on my part. I wish I could go back and tell those kids the truth.

To learn more about this topic it’s worth reading an interview by Frontline with Susan Davis, author of “Spectacular Nature: Corporate Culture and the SeaWorld Experience”. Davis details how every aspect of SeaWorld parks from landscape to concessions to educational material is carefully researched and commercialized to present just the message the company wants to present. Davis suggests that the “education” that one might receive from one of SeaWorld’s shows is equivalent or possibly not as good as the average library book targeted for third graders.

SeaWorld’s “educational” programs are nothing more than a thin veil behind which all of the less savory aspects of the captive marine mammal industry can be found hiding. I actually feel a fair amount of shame when I think about how much misinformation I participated in disseminating over my time at SeaWorld. My hope is that I can use the knowledge that I’ve gained since that time to set the record straight.

TOP: Sam, at The Orca Project, we heard rumors of a “huge demonstration” that was being planned on the anniversary of Dawn Brancheau’s tragic death. Apparently some folks from Jacksonville were planning on coming to SW dressed in wet suits with blonde ponytail wigs. Did you hear of these plans?

SAM: Yes I did.

TOP: Although we understand the message, what does this say about the public’s general understanding of how Dawn was pulled into the water? What are your thoughts on this?

SAM: When Dawn was killed, SeaWorld’s first report to the news media and the public was that a trainer had slipped or fell into the pool and drowned. Only later, after witnesses on CNN and various local outlets began to speak out, did the story evolve. The media and general public are still not informed of what I, and the other former trainers, regard as the truth.

SAM: Dawn’s safety spotter, Jan Topoleski, reported to the Orange Country Sheriff’s department that he saw Dawn’s hair floating on the water into Tilikum’s mouth. However, witness reports of the initial takedown raise a question of whether Jan was watching closely, and saw it. Witnesses have also reported that he lost valuable seconds by not sounding the pool alarm immediately. So there is reason to wonder how clearly Jan saw the grab, if at all.

SAM: I, along with 5 other former SeaWorld trainers, have reviewed the video evidence of Dawn’s last moments with Tilikum. We all agree the most likely explanation is that Tilikum actually had Dawn’s arm in his mouth before he rolled and took her underwater. So, it was an arm grab and not a ponytail grab. CLICK LINK TO ARTICLE FOR PHOTOGRAPHS OF DAWN WITH TILIKUM SECONDS BEFORE THE INCIDENT.

TOP: So, why does SeaWorld still promote the “Pony Tail Theory”?

SAM: There are several reasons why making this distinction is important to SeaWorld:

1. It gives SeaWorld an action they can take to remedy the situation: No female trainers are allowed to wear their hair down – hair must be kept in a bun or cut short. This gives the appearance that SeaWorld is effectively addressing the problem and mitigating the dangers of working with Tilikum and all other orcas.

2. A ponytail grab seems less intentional. People who don’t know anything about killer whales and how they feed in the wild could make the assumption that Tilikum didn’t actually INTEND to grab Dawn, but somehow the accident of her ponytail drifting in his mouth or touching his nose stirred up some kind of instinctual feeding behavior and he grabbed her. SeaWorld is trying to confound the issue by suggesting a reflex type “feeding frenzy” more akin to sharks, not whales.

3. The ponytail theory allows SeaWorld to blame Dawn for being careless and letting her hair drift in his mouth. However, anyone who has worked with killer whales can review the video of Dawn’s last session with Tilikum – and it will become more obvious that the answer as to what happened is more complicated than a simple, instinctual behavior.

4. Finally, if Dawn was grabbed by her ponytail, then it would be reasonable to assume that she could have died right away due to a broken neck from the violence of being whipped around by her head. However, witness statements indicate that Dawn re-surfaced at least once following the initial take-down and that she was likely alive for at least 1- 1/2 minutes into the attack. Thus the scalping that is reported in the ME’s report (which is also the supposed evidence FOR the ponytail grab) probably occurred AFTER Dawn died, not before. I think the idea that Dawn was alive and fighting for her life for this amount of time is likely an image that SW does not want to have people contemplating.

TOP: Based on what we know from the evidence (including witness statements) and after reviewing the video of Dawn’s final interaction with Tilikum, in your opinion, what is the more likely scenario that triggered the attack?

SAM: In the video from the Dine with Shamu show, Tilikum is performing well in the session to start off, but then Dawn “loses” his attention and he starts giving her mediocre responses to her requests. (To view a second by second transcript of Dawn’s last session with Tili, click “HERE” )

For some reason, Dawn continued to work a session with an animal that was not responding well and with minimal food (fish) at her disposal. There is reasonable speculation that VIP’s were in the park that day and it’s possible they viewed the regular Shamu Show “Believe” just prior to the “Dine with Shamu” show. The “Believe” show was interrupted due to social disturbances between the whales. While this social unrest likely played a role in agitating Tilikum, the presence of VIP’s could be an explanation as to why an experienced trainer like Dawn didn’t give him a break. (*see Note 1 below re: VIP’s)

Ultimately, Dawn did put herself in a vulnerable position with Tilikum, but she (and others) had likely done this hundreds of times before with management’s blessing as can be seen in the following photos: WEBSITE LINK PROVIDES MULTIPLE PHOTOGRAPHS OF MULTIPLE TRAINERS GETTING UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL WITH TILIKUM.

SAM: This time Tilikum decided that pulling Dawn in the water with him was more rewarding than anything else that was going on. Keep in mind that we now know Tilikum had an elevated white blood cell count when he pulled her in, and may not have felt well.

In the final image of Dawn and Tilikum’s interaction before the camera shuts off, it appears that her arm is already in Tilikum’s mouth. He has probably closed down on her arm while she was rubbing his tongue – a behavior known as “tongue tactile”. But instead of calling out to the spotter, she is quietly giving him a “neutral response” hoping that Tilikum will open his mouth and let go. Jan Topoleski likely didn’t see that this was happening and, in the end, possibly offered a story that sounded plausible so it would not appear that he wasn’t paying attention.

TOP: In a little more than a year, at least 5 orcas have died in captivity… (4 at SeaWorld parks, including the stillborn calf of Taima) along with 2 young trainers. Do you see anything positive that may come out of all of this tragedy?

SAM: Yes. Since Dawn’s death last year, the topic of killer whales in captivity has been in the media more frequently than at any other time I can remember. Already 7 ex-SeaWorld trainers have stepped forward to highlight the brutality, isolation, over-breeding and other wrongs that were perpetrated on these animals for the sake of commercialized entertainment. Many more ex-trainers will likely come forward, and we welcome them (*see note 1 below), as the accumulated evidence demonstrates beyond a doubt that these magnificent, intelligent and highly social animals do not belong in tanks for the purpose of entertaining people.

I think that the recent deaths and tragedies have started a chain of events that will be viewed from some vantage point in the future as a kind of “Rosa Parks moment” for killer whales.

SAM: I recently saw a preview of Stan Minasian’s movie, “A Fall From Freedom”, which examines the captive killer whale industry (**see Note 2 below for more info). In the movie, Ric O’Barry, former animal trainer for the television show Flipper, is interviewed about how he would like to see marine parks evolve and change in the future. O’Barry points out that the Monterey Bay Aquarium has 1.8 million visitors per year and manages to provide a highly educational experience for its guests without having any live whales on display. Instead, the aquarium has life sized models of many different types of whales.

In the interview, O’Barry also references the 1997-1998 rehabilitation of a sick grey whale at SeaWorld of San Diego. People came from everywhere to view and support SeaWorld’s efforts in treating AND releasing an animal back to the wild. This generated plenty of income for the park. SeaWorld and other marine parks have the potential to do a great service by helping to rescue, rehabilitate and return animals back to their natural environment.

In my opinion, the only conclusion that can be drawn from the overwhelming amount of evidence that has been collected here at The Orca Project and all over the internet, is this: We must stop capturing more killer whales, stop breeding killer whales in captivity, work to release any animals that are healthy enough to survive on their own, and retire unhealthy, un-releasable animals (like Tilikum) to sea pens where they can live out their life with their companions in a much less stressful environment.

 

[Isa]

Very interesting (very sad also )article, thanks for sharing. Do you know what happened to Tilikum? I guess he is still living all alone in a small pool ? Human beings would do anything for money, that is very unaceptable and heart breaking!

 

[Kalina]

Isa, that particular website also has a great article on Tilikum's life after Dawn... You'd be very surprised to see how he's being treated by his very caring multimillion dollar corp owners. There's plenty of video footage over a 20 hour period of him being left alone, in isolation, floating on the surface, lifeless (SW refer to his behavior as sleeping...lol) Anyone who has a clue about Orcas knows, this isn't sleeping.... It's called "Tilikums Lonely Life" or something like that, i will go get the link for you. Here it is: http://theorcaproject.wordpress.com/2010/09/03/seeing-is-believing-tilikums-lonely-life-after-dawn/

Even Naomi Rose from HSUS refers to Tilkum as "The Loneliest Whale in the World".
It's very sad but very enlightening as to the protocol of SW, Tilikum sure isn't happy with the way he has to live his life.

 

[Isa]

Thanks for the link.
That is so sad, how can it be legal is what I do not understand

 

[Kalina]

I know, it's just horrible... I hope one day Tilikum can be retired to a sea pen, he'll never be releasable, but at least they should give him some sort of normalcy for his species.

 

[onarock]

Wow! You keep Killer Whales up there on that ranch. Man, you got everything up there. Forget the pics of you flying through the air on that dirt bike (really cool BTW). I want to see pics of you in one of those fullsuits standing on a whales nose as it launches you 20' in the air... that would be awesome!

They feel how they feel and I was unable to change it with facts or first hand personal experience.

 

[John]

i say put the stupid humans back in the water,my money is on the whales. GO WHALES!!

 

[TylerStewart]

Candy - Let me know when you guys are able to get less people attending SeaWorld. I'd love to know when the crowds were smaller so I could pack up and take my family. The crowds are a huge limiting factor, and if a few people stay home to "save the planet," it makes SeaWorld a much more attractive weekend destination, at least for me.

There will always be environmental issues while humans inhabit this earth unfortunately... :-(

Solution? Anyone who feels guilty for breathing air while violently stealing this precious air from mother earth can blame themselves. Sell your house and car, move to a small island via canoe, and leave the rest of us alone.

It's nice to see that Tom and I aren't the only ones arguing the point on this topic like it seemed last time it came up. Nice to have you back, Candy. I can't wait to see photos of the 1 acre pen you said you were building for the cherryheads so they could live in a "natural enclosure." That must cost a lot to landscape, with the river and all. Until you have this done, give up the killer whale fight. They're no more miserable than your tortoises are.

 

[Candy]

Tyler again you have nothing to contribute to the facts, but that doesn't surprise me. Why don't you focus on our government? Oh, don't bother, if I remember correctly you didn't have any facts on that one either. You had nothing in the first thread, unless I missed it (which I doubt very much), but just in case you'd like to copy any or all of the information that you and Tom supposedly posted that could be taken as a positive to keeping Killer Whales in captivity please copy and paste so we all can be enlighten by your so called wisdom. It figures that you have no idea how much money Sea World has lost since the death of Dawn Brancheau. Why don't you look it up, it's not hard. Or maybe it's just too much fun for you to continue to be ignorant where these parks and these trainers are concerned. I choose not to be so I actually read articles and research papers and listen to people who actually know something about the parks. Can I assume that you do not? Now if you would like to stop complaining and making sarcastic comments and actually learn something valuable then take a look at this video and someone that actually would be able to speak on behalf of the trainers at Sea World. Not just someone who claims to know.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/4337596

 

[B K]

Candy - Let me know when you guys are able to get less people attending SeaWorld. I'd love to know when the crowds were smaller so I could pack up and take my family. The crowds are a huge limiting factor, and if a few people stay home to "save the planet," it makes SeaWorld a much more attractive weekend destination, at least for me.

There will always be environmental issues while humans inhabit this earth unfortunately... :-(

Solution? Anyone who feels guilty for breathing air while violently stealing this precious air from mother earth can blame themselves. Sell your house and car, move to a small island via canoe, and leave the rest of us alone.

It's nice to see that Tom and I aren't the only ones arguing the point on this topic like it seemed last time it came up. Nice to have you back, Candy. I can't wait to see photos of the 1 acre pen you said you were building for the cherryheads so they could live in a "natural enclosure." That must cost a lot to landscape, with the river and all. Until you have this done, give up the killer whale fight. They're no more miserable than your tortoises are.

We had yearly passes there when I lived in Florida.

 

[ChiKat]

They're no more miserable than your tortoises are.

Several people on the forum feel that their tortoises are THRIVING in captivity- Tom being one of them. [See Thriving VS. Surviving]
I have not heard one sane person state that they truly believe orcas are thriving in captivity.
We have concrete facts stating reasons why orcas are better off in their natural habitat. I have read nothing to the contrary- only people saying, "well I'm still going to SeaWorld!"

And since no one addressed my last post, I will quote myself

I wasn’t even going to TOUCH the orca/tortoise comparison, but I’ll go with it.

People here are always preaching about keeping tortoises in optimal conditions- as naturally as possible, while allowing them to grow and thrive.
Spacious enclosures, natural sunlight, allowing them to graze like they do in the wild, living outside as much as possible, given a diet that they might find in the wild, HOT and HUMID, etc.
The unnatural things that some of us do for our tortoises, such as feeding them generous portions every day, help them thrive, if anything.

What happens when tortoises are kept DRY in tiny enclosures, on the wrong substrate, fed an unnatural and unhealthy diet, played with and handled constantly, etc.
You get stressed-out, sickly tortoises with shortened lifespans.
But we know better!

What happens when orcas are confined to small, acoustically-dead, concrete enclosures; separated from their family; fed an unnatural diet of dead fish; forced to perform tricks?
You get stressed-out, sickly orcas with shortened lifespans.

I still would not agree with keeping orcas in captivity, even if they were kept in more natural conditions where they could thrive and act like NORMAL orcas, but I might not be as upset about it.

 

[Kalina]

Candy - Let me know when you guys are able to get less people attending SeaWorld. I'd love to know when the crowds were smaller so I could pack up and take my family. The crowds are a huge limiting factor, and if a few people stay home to "save the planet," it makes SeaWorld a much more attractive weekend destination, at least for me.

There will always be environmental issues while humans inhabit this earth unfortunately... :-(

Solution? Anyone who feels guilty for breathing air while violently stealing this precious air from mother earth can blame themselves. Sell your house and car, move to a small island via canoe, and leave the rest of us alone.

It's nice to see that Tom and I aren't the only ones arguing the point on this topic like it seemed last time it came up. Nice to have you back, Candy. I can't wait to see photos of the 1 acre pen you said you were building for the cherryheads so they could live in a "natural enclosure." That must cost a lot to landscape, with the river and all. Until you have this done, give up the killer whale fight. They're no more miserable than your tortoises are.

SW has lost customers, they're actually gaining debt now, look it up.

Nobody feels guilty for breathing air? What does people breathing have to do with it??
Or am I lost trying to make sense of your humor??

 

[B K]

What is there mortality rate in the wild.Not how long they can live but the average life span and the rate of deaths in there pods.

 

[Kalina]

The lifespan of wild females averages 50 years, with a maximum of 80–90 years, with the exception of "Granny".
Males usually live into their 40s, with the exception of "Old Tom". Captive killer whale lifespans are typically significantly shorter, on average only living into their 20s with the exception of Lolita and Corky.

Captivity usually bears little resemblance to wild habitat, and captive whales' social groups are foreign to those found in the wild. Critics claim that captive life is stressful due to these factors and the requirement to perform circus tricks that are not part of wild killer whale behavior.

 

[Jacqui]

WARNING!


This thread is about to be shut down. This is NOT the debate section, but that is where this entire thread should be going.

 

[Isa]

This thread is very interesting for a lot of us, but unfortunatly some people made it into a debate. In my opinion, if you do not care about this cause (about orcas and dolphins kept in captivity) why put your 2 cents?! I like it when Kalina puts update on what is happening and I am sure I am not the only one .

 

[Yvonne G]

Personally, I'm an ostrich. I don't want to know about whales and dolphins and their plight, so I choose to not read this thread and others like it. May I suggest to Tyler and Onarock and anyone else who doesn't share the OP's views on the subject to just click past the thread and don't read it.

 

[TylerStewart]

Several people on the forum feel that their tortoises are THRIVING in captivity- Tom being one of them. [See Thriving VS. Surviving]

Oh, I agree, I think my tortoises are thriving too. They reproduce, which by a whale's standard is thriving, right? Do the whales not reproduce at Sea World?

I find it silly that Candy acts like she's "researching" when all she is doing is searching Google for an argument that agrees with what she already thinks. If someone wanted to find it, there's plenty of info out there about the whales doing well there. I don't have the time or the enthisiasm nor do I care enough about this topic to provide you all with more information that apparently I am supposed to be providing, but a simple search will contradict every opinion made on this topic, on both sides. Here's an idea, [GASP] Use common sense. I think it's a hard argument to make about how depressed the whales are in captivity when they're reproducing.

The life expectancy argument is full of holes. Nobody knows what percentage of baby whales make it to adulthood. I would guess that a baby whale has a much better chance of survival at Sea World than it does in the wild. With many, many species, a tiny percentage of them make it to adult size (tortoises are a perfect example). I doubt whales are any different.