SeaWorld prepares to put trainers back in water with killer whales

[ChiKat]

From Tom's pyramiding thread:

Just a bit of animal trivia for you. Most (almost all) animals live nearly twice as long in captivity as they do in the wild. This is due to excellent medical care, lack of internal and external parasites, excellent hydration, balanced nutrition as needed, lack of competition from conspecifics, lack of predation and stress from attempted predation, temperature controlled shelter 24/7, etc...

Most animals...but not orcas. Interesting.

"Researchers have determined an average life exptectancy for wild killer whales of about 30 years for males and 50 years for females. Despite those facts, which are commonly accepted within the scientific community, marine park officials still declare publicly that orcas don’t live much longer than 20 years."
http://www.orcahome.de/lifeexpectancy.htm

 

[Kalina]

Also Chikat, I just came across this because i was doing some research on Beluga Whales...
The National Marine Mammal Laboratory, Marine Mammal Education Web, NMFS state that Beluga Whales live 35 to 50 years. here is the link to their website which states this: http://www.afsc.noaa.gov/nmml/education/cetaceans/beluga.php#old

Now, SeaWorld's educational website states that beluga Whales live 25 to 30 years. Here is their website which states this: http://www.seaworld.org/infobooks/beluga/bedeath.html

25 to 30 years? Do they mean for "captive" Beluga's? Because according to NMFS, this is just half of their life expectancy right? Well, maybe a little over half.... This is just one example of how Aquariums mislead the public to their own advantage... And what's sad is: Children visit these places and trust that all information given is true and accurate, unfortunately, so do their parents.

 

[Kristina]

This is just one example of how Aquariums mislead the public to their own advantage... And what's sad is: Children visit these places and trust that all information given is true and accurate, unfortunately, so do their parents.

You could change "aquariums" to "pet shops" and be talking about tortoises - just because whales are bigger, doesn't mean that any other animal suffers less in captivity.

 

[Kalina]

This is just one example of how Aquariums mislead the public to their own advantage... And what's sad is: Children visit these places and trust that all information given is true and accurate, unfortunately, so do their parents.

You could change "aquariums" to "pet shops" and be talking about tortoises - just because whales are bigger, doesn't mean that any other animal suffers less in captivity.

Most animals suffer at the hands of man, because we're selfish and don't care... As Ric O'Barry says "we're a spectator Society" and we haven't learned to respect and to not cross the line between us and wildlife!

Infact, i read part of an article yesterday where Tortoises are being killed by people in high numbers... The Seal hunt has started in Canada, there are people clubbing Seals to death. Soon the Faroe Islands will start their annual slaughter of Pilot Whales (in the most inhumane ways)...
It's all about human greed, it's all about money. All life should have value, all life should be respected... Knowing what we do about Cetaceans, how intelligent they are, how they feel anger, fear, pain, love, excitement, grief..etc should we really have them in concrete tanks under the guise of education? Especially if you're not being educated by the marine park in question.

 

[Candy]

I see that Kalina has posted a great deal on Killer Whales in captivity for people to read. I also have a few websites if anyone is interested in reading or learning anything about these wonderful creatures. Still waiting for that information about the positive points of captivity if anyone can post them.

Here are a few websites if anyone is interested in learning the truth behind captivity. This one tells all the names of the Killer Whales who've been in captivity and who've died in captivity. Notice the difference in the numbers?

http://theorcaproject.wordpress.com/killer-whale-orca-database/killer-whale-orca-living-park/

http://theorcaproject.wordpress.com/killer-whale-orca-database/killer-whale-orca-dead-name/

And here's a link that you can read that lets you know just how far Sea World will go to protect their parks for profit.

http://www.change.org/petitions/sea...a-to-have-closed-hearings#?opt_new=t&opt_fb=t

---

Here's a challenge to anyone up for it......Please post your facts on captivity of Killer Whales and how it is beneficial for them or anyone else. If you do post anything about education purposes please post facts and not opinions. I will be posting a thread on the facts against it since I've been studying these whales for the past several months.

Candy, two things, let's move this into the debate section off topic section, because that is really where it belongs. Second, I won't be joining in, tho I do love a good debate I just don't have the time to spend on it. I have what I feel are better things to do with my limited time like the information/articles I am working on to help folks with tortoises and getting things done for the betterment for the ones under my own care. Such as getting my enclosures ready for warm weather. I do applaud you for having the time and energy to give to whales, I just don't have the same and believe I can make a bigger difference (plus an actual difference) by using the same on just my passion for tortoises.

Jacqui I just wanted to show you the dimensions of Lolita's tank at the Florida Sea Aquarium since you didn't seem to think they were very small. And I'm sorry it seems that I've upset you by your comments that you're making to me. Do you really think that protecting one animal is more important then another? I'm taking this from the comment that you made about "making an actual difference". How do you know what difference I have made or haven't made? I take a bit of insult at that comment and don't appreciate or understand where it's coming from. I have been working very hard on learning about these Killer Whales and teaching others about them, the same as I learned about tortoises by coming on here and reading books about them. I don't understand where your comments are coming from. I care about every animal and not just one species and I won't apologize to anyone for that. I have never came on here and insulted anything that you believed in and I've got to admit that I'm a little taken back by you posts. I can understand if you don't want to post to this thread, but I was just asking for your facts just as I was asking for the other posters facts. Anyway here's the dimensions of her tank if you're interested as it is pretty small even by standards.

Lolita is 21 feet long and weighs approx: 6000 lbs. and her tank from the front wall to the wall that forms the barrier is only 35' wide. It is 20 feet deep in the middle. By law the killer whales tanks must be at least 48' in both directions.

 

[Kalina]

Candy, if you have made just one person think twice about visiting an aquarium, you have indeed made an "actual" difference for captive Dolphins and Killer Whales and i applaud you for that, and I'm sure the animals would too given the chance.

Lolita's tank is in fact too small by government standards, it's too shallow and she doesn't have the required straight line of travel in the center. I'm surprised she hasn't accidently jumped out of her tank during her show jumps. Her tank is clearly illegal, yet nobody will do anything about it. The HSUS has repeatedly made complaints regarding Lolita's illegal tank and been ignored. I guess the state of Florida needs the income from MSQ. The Miami Seaquarium has a permit to Rehabilitate and release animals... Not Imprison and Exploit!

For people to argue that she is happy is simply ridiculous, you will notice how they won't acknowledge that they feel sadness and depression because of their captivity, but will acknowledge they feel happiness?

Also, people will argue that the annual Dolphin slaughter in japan has nothing to do with aquariums... Aquariums pay big money to these fishermen for live Dolphins, apparently, just one live Dolphin will sell for $15000, this is how the cruel fishermen can continue to fuel and buy banger boats for the slaughters. If aquariums stopped buying Dolphins from them, they would find it impossible to continue doing it, a dead Dolphin's meat will sell for $600 but since the documentary "The Cove" came out, people stopped eating it and they have stockpiles of it, they even give it to school children for free even tho it's laced with mercury.
Also, aquariums can claim that they don't get their animals from Japan, but they've found a way by having Japanese Aquariums buy the animals for public display and then places like SW can buy the animal from them which keeps them out of the Dolphin Slaughter issue.

 

[B K]

So how do you feel about Tortoise keepers

 

[Kalina]

I don't know enough about Torts/Turtles to answer your question... If they live longer being free and don't experience stress related illness and have very strong bonds with their family, I would say let them stay free....

I focus on Dolphins and Killer Whales because I feel they're being exploited, it angers me that big companies make BIG $$$ off these animals and then lie by calling it "education".

I love all animals, big or small, I love them all... But I can't focus on them all because it would drive me insane... Some people campaign for Elephants or Tigers. There's plenty of issues in this world for everyone to take an interest and get active.

I'm also heavily into making harsher penalties for Pitbull Fighting, I've even been on TV trying to bring more awareness to it... The whole Michael Vick case was bittersweet for me... Bad because of the act itself, but good because he was a famous footballer and his case brought a ton of attention to it.

With Whales and Dolphins: I feel we have a lot to learn from them, if only we would listen to them. We can't learn from them in aquariums because they display unnatural behavior, there was breaking news last week that scientists are now communicating with Dolphins (both ways)... When we have them in captivity, the communication is one way (us telling them what to do via hand signals) But like Ric O'Barry said, "Dolphins don't have hands" so how can they communicate back? They are a species with intelligence as great as ours, this cannot be ignored.

 

[Jacqui]

---

Here's a challenge to anyone up for it......Please post your facts on captivity of Killer Whales and how it is beneficial for them or anyone else. If you do post anything about education purposes please post facts and not opinions. I will be posting a thread on the facts against it since I've been studying these whales for the past several months.

Candy, two things, let's move this into the debate section off topic section, because that is really where it belongs. Second, I won't be joining in, tho I do love a good debate I just don't have the time to spend on it. I have what I feel are better things to do with my limited time like the information/articles I am working on to help folks with tortoises and getting things done for the betterment for the ones under my own care. Such as getting my enclosures ready for warm weather. I do applaud you for having the time and energy to give to whales, I just don't have the same and believe I can make a bigger difference (plus an actual difference) by using the same on just my passion for tortoises.

Jacqui I just wanted to show you the dimensions of Lolita's tank at the Florida Sea Aquarium since you didn't seem to think they were very small.

---

Did I say they weren't small? I do think they are small, just as I think most of us keep our turtles and tortoises in too small of enclosures compared to what they may "deserve" or wish/need. My comment was they are not in bathtub sized enclosures (unless it's a tub for all of TFO to bath in at one time.)

And I'm sorry it seems that I've upset you by your comments that you're making to me.

Not upset by your comments. In fact, I sorta go between chuckling over them and feeling a tad sorry for you to be honest. It always amazes me how differently folks can read and take the written word.

Do you really think that protecting one animal is more important then another? I'm taking this from the comment that you made about "making an actual difference".

Honestly there are times, when yes one animal's life is more valuable. To bring this down to a level just about everybody can understand, ask any parent who they would choose to save if they could only save one human, their own child or a total stranger. Human nature is when it comes down to those finial hard choices, we choose what we love and what we value the most to save. Before anybody says "but humans aren't animals", they are indeed animals. In this case, between a whale and a tortoise, yes I do choose to give my support, time, and energy to helping the tortoise. I also give it to dogs and cats before whales too, as those are animals I do rescue work with. Those animals are more important to ME.

Which to me is another point for having a few of these animals not only in captivity, but more importantly where people can see them. We tend to bond with and value more, the things we have a personal connection with, that we can touch, feel or see with our own eyes (not in books, pictures, or movies).

A side note: back to your question as to one animal being more important then another. I took that as in a personal judgment as to importance rating. You could also look at it as in is a more science (less emotional) based call on it's importance. I did not do so in this question.

How do you know what difference I have made or haven't made?

I don't, that is why I never said ANYthing about what difference you may or may not have made. Once more, I was talking about me, that's why I used the word, "I". Please reread what I wrote, see all those "I" sentences? I means Jacqui, it does not mean Candy. The part I wrote about you was when I applauded you for having the time and energy for this. Or when I said you may have time for this, but I just don't. It's not where and how I want to use my time and energy.

I take a bit of insult at that comment and don't appreciate or understand where it's coming from.

It's coming from your imagination, since I never said or made any assumptions about you. If anybody should be insulted it should be me for all these false rewording of my comments. (no I am not insulted, just sorta feeling it's par for the course)

I have never came on here and insulted anything that you believed in and I've got to admit that I'm a little taken back by you posts.

I am sorry you feel insulted by me finally having enough and giving MY beliefs and thoughts on the matter. I have no idea where you come by the belief that I have insulted (or meant to insult) anything you have said. I made my comments by giving MY thoughts and knowledge, not by making this about you..which it seems to have become.

 

[Kalina]

Here is an interesting article regarding the intelligence of Dolphins, we're learning more and more about them now, very intriguing animals:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/science/article6973994.ece
Dolphins have been declared the world’s second most intelligent creatures after humans, with scientists suggesting they are so bright that they should be treated as “non-human persons”.

Studies into dolphin behaviour have highlighted how similar their communications are to those of humans and that they are brighter than chimpanzees. These have been backed up by anatomical research showing that dolphin brains have many key features associated with high intelligence.

The researchers argue that their work shows it is morally unacceptable to keep such intelligent animals in amusement parks or to kill them for food or by accident when fishing. Some 300,000 whales, dolphins and porpoises die in this way each year.

“Many dolphin brains are larger than our own and second in mass only to the human brain when corrected for body size,” said Lori Marino, a zoologist at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia, who has used magnetic resonance imaging scans to map the brains of dolphin species and compare them with those of primates.
The neuroanatomy suggests psychological continuity between humans and dolphins and has profound implications for the ethics of human-dolphin interactions,” she added.

Dolphins have long been recognised as among the most intelligent of animals but many researchers had placed them below chimps, which some studies have found can reach the intelligence levels of three-year-old children. Recently, however, a series of behavioural studies has suggested that dolphins, especially species such as the bottlenose, could be the brighter of the two. The studies show how dolphins have distinct personalities, a strong sense of self and can think about the future.

It has also become clear that they are “cultural” animals, meaning that new types of behaviour can quickly be picked up by one dolphin from another.

In one study, Diana Reiss, professor of psychology at Hunter College, City University of New York, showed that bottlenose dolphins could recognise themselves in a mirror and use it to inspect various parts of their bodies, an ability that had been thought limited to humans and great apes.

In another, she found that captive animals also had the ability to learn a rudimentary symbol-based language.

Other research has shown dolphins can solve difficult problems, while those living in the wild co-operate in ways that imply complex social structures and a high level of emotional sophistication.

In one recent case, a dolphin rescued from the wild was taught to tail-walk while recuperating for three weeks in a dolphinarium in Australia.

After she was released, scientists were astonished to see the trick spreading among wild dolphins who had learnt it from the former captive.

There are many similar examples, such as the way dolphins living off Western Australia learnt to hold sponges over their snouts to protect themselves when searching for spiny fish on the ocean floor.

Such observations, along with others showing, for example, how dolphins could co-operate with military precision to round up shoals of fish to eat, have prompted questions about the brain structures that must underlie them.

Size is only one factor. Researchers have found that brain size varies hugely from around 7oz for smaller cetacean species such as the Ganges River dolphin to more than 19lb for sperm whales, whose brains are the largest on the planet. Human brains, by contrast, range from 2lb-4lb, while a chimp’s brain is about 12oz.

When it comes to intelligence, however, brain size is less important than its size relative to the body.

What Marino and her colleagues found was that the cerebral cortex and neocortex of bottlenose dolphins were so large that “the anatomical ratios that assess cognitive capacity place it second only to the human brain”. They also found that the brain cortex of dolphins such as the bottlenose had the same convoluted folds that are strongly linked with human intelligence.

Such folds increase the volume of the cortex and the ability of brain cells to interconnect with each other. “Despite evolving along a different neuroanatomical trajectory to humans, cetacean brains have several features that are correlated with complex intelligence,” Marino said.

Marino and Reiss will present their findings at a conference in San Diego, California, next month, concluding that the new evidence about dolphin intelligence makes it morally repugnant to mistreat them.

Thomas White, professor of ethics at Loyola Marymount University, Los Angeles, who has written a series of academic studies suggesting dolphins should have rights, will speak at the same conference.

“The scientific research . . . suggests that dolphins are ‘non-human persons’ who qualify for moral standing as individuals,” he said.

 

[ChiKat]

I do applaud you for having the time and energy to give to whales, I just don't have the same and believe I can make a bigger difference (plus an actual difference) by using the same on just my passion for tortoises.

(bolded mine)

I have no idea where you come by the belief that I have insulted (or meant to insult) anything you have said. I made my comments by giving MY thoughts and knowledge, not by making this about you..which it seems to have become.

Maybe I took that first quote the wrong way, but I thought that was a little...snarky. Yes, you said you applaud her for having the time, but you also said you are making an actual difference...as opposed to what she is doing? Ouch.

Kalina and Candy have posted clear information, facts, and statistics listing reasons why orcas should not be kept in captivity. How it is detrimental to their health, well-being, not to mention cruel being captured from the wild and taken from their families...
I have seen nothing logical presented that explains why people feel it is better for orcas to be kept in captivity. I've only seen comments such as, "well I will still go to Seaworld" and "you're being too emotional."

So how do you feel about Tortoise keepers

I don't have a problem with people keeping tortoises if we can make their lives better by keeping them in captivity.
As I stated before:

From Tom's pyramiding thread:

Just a bit of animal trivia for you. Most (almost all) animals live nearly twice as long in captivity as they do in the wild. This is due to excellent medical care, lack of internal and external parasites, excellent hydration, balanced nutrition as needed, lack of competition from conspecifics, lack of predation and stress from attempted predation, temperature controlled shelter 24/7, etc...

Most animals...but not orcas. Interesting.

"Researchers have determined an average life exptectancy for wild killer whales of about 30 years for males and 50 years for females. Despite those facts, which are commonly accepted within the scientific community, marine park officials still declare publicly that orcas don’t live much longer than 20 years."
http://www.orcahome.de/lifeexpectancy.htm

So while my tortoise might live longer in captivity, orcas certainly are not.

 

[Jacqui]

I do applaud you for having the time and energy to give to whales, I just don't have the same and believe I can make a bigger difference (plus an actual difference) by using the same on just my passion for tortoises.

(bolded mine)

I have no idea where you come by the belief that I have insulted (or meant to insult) anything you have said. I made my comments by giving MY thoughts and knowledge, not by making this about you..which it seems to have become.

Maybe I took that first quote the wrong way, but I thought that was a little...snarky. Yes, you said you applaud her for having the time, but you also said you are making an actual difference...as opposed to what she is doing? Ouch.

First I had to lookup the term of "snarky" and found this "snide," "catty," "snotty," or "bitchy.".

You know something IF I had wanted to say SHE (Candy) was not making a difference I would have. Did I? NO! I said and I repeat I I I I I I I (got it? I, Jacqui) just don't have the same (time and energy to give to whales) and I (that's me, Jacqui again) believe I can make a bigger difference for tortoises. Then I went on to say.." (plus an actual difference)" meaning I can't make an impact (ie actual difference) on whales, but I can make an impact in how tortoises, mainly hingebacks are cared for.

I know somebody used that keeping just one person from going to Seaworld is making a difference (and for the person saying it and Candy, who I think it was said about, that may be true). I keep with that example which for me, in determining if I were making an actual difference, it would not be one to me. To make sure that is clear, in my mind and in regards to my own self judging of my own ability to make a difference, that would fall as making no difference. It's just not the sort of making a difference I want to make. I want to know that something I did, directly helped to keep a tortoise alive. To me and for me, that is making a difference. We each have different things that we feel makes a difference and different levels of needing to make those differences.

Are we clear yet?? In the quote made to Candy:

"I do applaud you for having the time and energy to give to whales, I just don't have the same and believe I can make a bigger difference (plus an actual difference) by using the same on just my passion for tortoises."

Everything before the comma is about Candy. After that comma is all about me with no hidden meanings whatsoever.

---

"Researchers have determined an average life exptectancy for wild killer whales of about 30 years for males and 50 years for females. Despite those facts, which are commonly accepted within the scientific community, marine park officials still declare publicly that orcas don’t live much longer than 20 years."
http://www.orcahome.de/lifeexpectancy.htm

So while my tortoise might live longer in captivity, orcas certainly are not.
[/quote]
I looked at that site, the most interesting thing I see is that they are making HUGE gains in how long these animals are living in captivity as the knowledge is beginning gained.

I have some questions for you who like to do research and quote it in here. First off, how many whales are born each year? How many a year are found dead from old age (the 30 or 50)? How many each year are dead before 30/50 years due to death caused by whaling, sharks, disease, ect..,?

 

[ChiKat]

First I had to lookup the term of "snarky" and found this "snide," "catty," "snotty," or "bitchy."

Sorry, that's actually a word I've never used in real life I've only seen it on the Internet. I did not mean to call you bitchy. Poor choice of words- I apologize!!
eta: I actually looked that word up on my Macbook's dictionary before using it and it said "cutting" or "critical" That's what I get for trying to use new lingo

I also understand now what you were saying about making an actual difference. Sorry I misinterpreted that.

---

Proponents of captive whale programs claim that they are important for conservation, education, and breeding purposes. But, is exhibiting an animal in a prison-like environment really conservation at all?

Keeping a whale in captivity doesn’t keep it safer than it would be in its natural habitat; in fact research on wild orcas has shown us that the health and behaviour of captive whales differs greatly from wild ones. To support conservation for orcas, more effort should be put into making their habitat safer for them. To educate the public about them, people can watch documentaries about wild orcas or go and see them in the wild with reputable whale watching tours. When orca habitat is safe for them, they breed on their own without human help just fine.

From http://www.keepwhaleswild.org/ which is actually a short, to-the-point website that is easy to understand.

Also from that website, since I feel the people who I want to click on the link aren't going to

Environment:
Orca natural habitat is vast expanses of ocean. Wild orcas travel up to 100 miles (160km) in a day, and dive to a depth of almost 200 feet (60 m). They spend less than 20% of their time at the water's surface. In contrast, orcas in captivity reside in a collection of small tanks filled with chlorinated water. This habitat can be equated to a human being relegated for life to an area maybe as big as a few rooms and full of chemically treated air.

Food:
In nature, orcas eat a wide selection of prey, depending on the area they inhabit. Their food can include a variety of: 30 different species of fish, sharks, squid, seals, sea lions, walruses, sea otters, birds, and even other types of whales. Orcas in most aquariums are fed a monotonous diet, primarily of dead herring. This does not have anything to do with the whale's optimum health; this is merely what is most convenient for humans to feed them.

Socialization:
Orcas in nature live in complex social groups and maintain strong social bonds with members of their pod. In captivity, orcas are put into social groups not of their own choosing which will change many times over their lives; in the wild a social group usually only changes due to births and deaths in the pod. Some unfortunate orcas aren’t even given the comfort of companionship at all and left in solitary tanks instead.

Mental Stimulation:
Opportunities for mental stimulation for orcas in the wild is vast; they are highly intelligent and demonstrate complex problem solving and abstract concept formation in their daily lives. They are engaged with hunting, socializing with their pod, and playing games each day. In a stark tank devoid of fish to chase and family members to socialize with, there is only training. Researchers believe that the lack of mental stimulation for captive whales causes high levels of stress, aggression, and mental illness.

 

[Jacqui]

First I had to lookup the term of "snarky" and found this "snide," "catty," "snotty," or "bitchy."

Sorry, that's actually a word I've never used in real life I've only seen it on the Internet. I did not mean to call you bitchy. Poor choice of words- I apologize!!
eta: I actually looked that word up on my Macbook's dictionary before using it and it said "cutting" or "critical" That's what I get for trying to use new lingo

I can't recall what site my search button took me to for the meaning. It did also point out the meaning is different depending if your in the USA or the UK. It does sound kinda neat as it rolls off your tongue doesn't it?

 

[ChiKat]

Yes it does
Apparently I should be more careful using that word Lesson learned.

 

[Candy]

Jacqui I posted the websites of orca's living in captivity compared to the ones who have died on my previous post here. If your trying to imply that they are better off in captivity then they are in their natural habitat then I'm afraid that's just wrong. I wonder how many people actually know that there have been 5 Shamu's at Sea World (or are you like most people who think there's only one)? Tell me do you know who the last Shamu was? Can anyone answer that one? They just replace them when they die. They don't tell the public, they actually keep that information away from us because if we knew most people would actually think twice before supporting a facility like Sea World. Do you also know that Sea World knew there was something wrong with the whales the day that Trainer Dawn Brancheau was killed. That's why they canceled the show. That's why she was playing with Tilikum. She was entertaining the guests. Did Sea World tell the public that she drowned or did they actually tell them that he held her under for 45 minutes and they couldn't get to her? Did they tell what actually happened to her, no they didn't and they won't because this is what they do, they cover everything bad up so they don't loose money. So you see it's not just about the whales with me it's the organizations that need to stop putting human lives at risk just and innocent animals in harms way just so they can make a profit.

---

Jacqui and Dr. Westin, Where were you two during the last go around with this topic? I gave up trying with this crowd. I kept arguing for a while, but I can't argue with people's emotions. They feel how they feel and I was unable to change it with facts or first hand personal experience. They aren't going to change my opinion either, so I sort of understand.

Jacqui, you made some excellent points and I agree whole-heartedly. As soon as it warms up, my family will also be making a trip to Sea World, where my daughter will learn first hand about the beautiful wonders of the sea. I can't make her sit through 30 seconds of the discovery channel, but she'll watch live animals right in front of her indefinitely. Then she'll repeat back to you everything she learned about them.

When I read this I was extremely confused. What do you mean "you gave up on this crowd"? I do agree that you did keep arguing, and rather emotionally I might add. What facts did you post for us to learn anything from Tom? I went back through it and didn't find any facts or research from you. We posted ours and asked you time and time again to post any of yours but still didn't get any. I take it this is the thread that your talking about in this post?

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-3-Killer-Whales-die-within-4-months-at-Sea-World?page=5

I don't see any facts or research from you on captivity at all. I only see comments about the trainers from Sea World and that is not what we were talking about at the time of this thread. Now I've asked for more information and again it's not being provided....I can only assume that it's because you don't have any.

 

[Kalina]

Lolita the Killer Whale at The Miami Seaquarium is ill, apparently security is tight and there hasn't been a whale show in a couple of days. The park states she has in tooth infection and has been suffering with toothache, skeptics are saying it's something more serious... I truly hope Lolita is going to be ok, I would hope one day she be reunited with her family.
Considering Lolita's time spent in captivity, she has good dental health

 

[Candy]

Lolita Update #124 - Lolita may be seriously ill
News, Views, Events March 6, 2011

Dear Friends of Lolita,



Many of you have seen the disturbing reports from Miami in the past few days. The stadium has been closed for about a week now. Security at the Seaquarium has been very tight, with lights on at the whale tank all night long and a dozen or so vehicles parked nearby. As of 2 pm yesterday Lolita's blows could be heard, but observers have been removed so even that much information is hard to come by now.

The front office has told callers and the media that Lolita has a "toothache" and that the tank is being "repaired," so essentially no information is forthcoming from management.

Today, Sunday, at about 11 AM Shelby Proie posted a message on Facebook that a helicopter had landed inside the park grounds and four people got out. That's the kind of sketchy and mysterious details we're getting now, but indications are that Lolita may be ill. If the toothache story has any credibility, it could be serious because poor dentition can lead to systemic infections that could exhaust her compromised immune system, as described in:
Keto and Tilikum Express the Stress of Orca Captivity

By Drs Jeffrey Ventre and John Jett, both former trainers at SeaWorld, this is a landmark study into how captivity causes stress and early death for orcas in marine parks.

We are very grateful for the wonderful folks who are keeping an eye on Lolita in very difficult circumstances, and who have been campaigning and demanding that the Seaquarium allow her to retire in her home waters. They are too numerous to name here at this time.

We'll of course update you all whenever we hear something definite. You can find the latest updates on the Orca Network Facebook page.

Thanks to all,

Howard and Susan

Orca Network




Lolita's bio:
ConnieRegan
Photo: Corrine Regan



Lolita was first named Tokitae when she was captured from her family in 1970. She has been on display at the Miami Seaquarium in Florida ever since. She is the last surviving orca of 45 members of the Southern Resident community that were brutally captured and delivered for display in marine parks between 1965 and 1973.

She was about four years old when she last saw her family. She still lives in a tank that is that is only 35x80 feet, illegal according to the Animal Welfare Act. Lolita is about 7,500 pounds, 21 feet long and her tank is 18-20 feet deep.

Lolita performs two shows a day but between shows she shows signs of boredom and depression. Her tank mate, Hugo, killed himself 30 years ago by hitting his head against the wall, Lolita hasn't seen another whale since!

When we say that we want to free Lolita, we mean we want to retire her safely, with professional care in a protected cove near her family's usual summer foraging areas, where she was born and raised.

The full proposal to retire Lolita is available

HERE

. There is no significant risk at any stage of this retirement proposal, but there is considerable risk in her remaining at the marine park in Miami.

 

[Candy]

In a new study, nearly a year in the making, former SeaWorld trainers Jeffrey Ventre, MD and John Jett, Ph.D, take us deep behind the scenes of Marine parks and their ability to provide environments adequate for keeping killer whales alive in captivity.
As former orca trainers, and now a medical doctor and biology professor respectively, Drs Ventre and Jett have a perspective that has not been heard in the intensifying debate about captivity for orcas:





http://theorcaproject.wordpress.com/2011/01/20/keto-tilikum-express-stress-of-orca-captivity/

 

[B K]

Do we know what there mortality rate is in the wild are there any environmental issues .