Dine With Shamu, Orca kills trainer

[alfiethetortoise]

And as for them not making it in the wild so what? Are they better off here doing tricks for my kids and being kept in containers that are too small for them? We are not God and we should not decide that it's better for them to be caught then to live or die in the wild.

You know, it is very interesting that you can dismiss the 35-50% of Orca's that will die naturally in the wild in the first two years of life. But when an Orca is sick or dies in an Aquarium, then you assume that it's the aqurium's fault. And by your own standards, what are you doing with a tortoise? It's a wild animal. Best to set it free, since we are not God and should not decide what's better for them. And if you say your tortoise was captive bred, well, so are the Orca's. They don't harvest from the wild anymore. They breed through breeding programmes....

Here is the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orca

Tillikum the Orca is not from New Zealand. In fact in all the articles i read yesterday (which was a lot) none of them said this. He was captured off Iceland, in November 1983.

Here is the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilikum_(whale)#Tilikum


From a teaching perspective, children learn best though seeing the animals first hand. In most instances, it wont be possible for schools to hop in the Yhat and go off Whale spotting. An aquarium is a happy medium. And when a child has seen the animal, you can bet they will be interested.... and then you can bring your Attenborough DVD's out, if you feel the need....

 

[Kymiie]

As far as I know and havnt been to one anyway I think again I say I think, animals here in the UK are banned from being in circuses, but as I say not really looked it up.. but think I will now xx

 

[alfiethetortoise]

Hey Kymiie, i just did a quick seach about Elephants, and The Great British Circus in Newark, had 3 Elephants preforming last year.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/feb/27/circus-elephants-rspca

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/7916233.stm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/jul/29/animalwelfare.world

And the other link, the story of Anne, the last of the 54 Elephants britain once had, before the three news ones appeared in Newark last year....

And if that circus is back in town (round about now) maybe there will be more news to come...

 

[chadk]

I've seen lots of cool animals here in the Puget Sound. Once I was in a 14ft row boat (had a 9.9hp kicker\motor) with my dad fishing off whidbey island and we had a pod of killer whales surround us. My dad was pretty freaked out, but I was loving it.

 

[stells]

What continues to amaze me is the people that seemingly agree with this practice... have a problem with tortoises living indoors... people making money from tortoises.... etc... whats the difference?

My local circus... has a no animal policy and has done for a few years now... so i can now take my children to the circus... where before i wouldn't...

 

[Meg90]

Stells---you and I think alot a like. I got into this debate on another forum, and brought up the keeping of reptiles in their minimum space requirements. I had someone tell me that my tortoises were "domesticated" and did not miss the wild--that my WC male was considered domesticated as well.

My big question was how can someone cry over the whales, when they turn around and in their living room, is an animal in a box (a nice, planted box) that would usually have an entire country to roam on. Is it not the same thing on a smaller scale?

We do not keep whales in bathtubs. Their enclosures are always being reworked, policies are changing and as it has been said in the new article, sea world has never even been fined for mistreating their animals.

Tilikum is also safe. The park announced yesterday that his presence is too important to the other whales, and he is too large a part of their breeding program to be put down like a dog.

And their is a difference between a show tank, and the tanks where the animals live.

 

[Jacqui]

What continues to amaze me is the people that seemingly agree with this practice... have a problem with tortoises living indoors... people making money from tortoises.... etc... whats the difference?

My local circus... has a no animal policy and has done for a few years now... so i can now take my children to the circus... where before i wouldn't...

A circus with NO animals??? To me, that was why I always wanted to see one as a child.

I think that as in all areas dealing with animals, there has been a lot of improvement on the understanding, care and training of "entertainment" animals. We don't always see it, because to keep the aww/fear factors going we still have the whips and things out more for show and the animals need to show some aggression. That is what draws people.

However Seaworld is a prime example of one, which is clearly showing folks what can be done with positive training rather than punishment. They still draw in large crowds, which brings in money in many forms. With that money they keep improving the quality of life for the animals. Money that is used to gain huge amounts of knowledge about these animals that other wise would still be unknown.

In the race to maybe save the animals still in the wild is the price of a few captives not worth it? How many youths have been inspired by just one visit to a Seaworld? In how many ways have animals of all kinds benefited from something born from that visit? ....and yes, as somebody already brought up, isn't this also what we are trying to do in our own small ways with our turtles and tortoises?

It's sad about the trainer, but she know going in what she was dealing with working around the whales, even more so with this animal. Any body who works around any animal, be it whale, lion, pit bull, poodle, bee, or snapping turtle (and man), should know they always have the potential to do harm, to even kill.

She died doing something she loved, living her dream. How many of us will ever be so lucky?

 

[DoctorCosmonaut]

If they are hurt, or socially incapable of being accepted into a pod, I get that they've got to go somewhere... But when people treat them like they are part of a show, when they are still unpredictable, dangerous animals, something is going to happen sooner or later... And heck, I'd hate to live in something the size of a jacuzzi, I'd probably be all grumpy from being cramped and prodded too!

 

[Candy]

And as for them not making it in the wild so what? Are they better off here doing tricks for my kids and being kept in containers that are too small for them? We are not God and we should not decide that it's better for them to be caught then to live or die in the wild.

You know, it is very interesting that you can dismiss the 35-50% of Orca's that will die naturally in the wild in the first two years of life. But when an Orca is sick or dies in an Aquarium, then you assume that it's the aqurium's fault. And by your own standards, what are you doing with a tortoise? It's a wild animal. Best to set it free, since we are not God and should not decide what's better for them. And if you say your tortoise was captive bred, well, so are the Orca's. They don't harvest from the wild anymore. They breed through breeding programmes....

Here is the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orca

Tillikum the Orca is not from New Zealand. In fact in all the articles i read yesterday (which was a lot) none of them said this. He was captured off Iceland, in November 1983.

Here is the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilikum_(whale)#Tilikum


From a teaching perspective, children learn best though seeing the animals first hand. In most instances, it wont be possible for schools to hop in the Yhat and go off Whale spotting. An aquarium is a happy medium. And when a child has seen the animal, you can bet they will be interested.... and then you can bring your Attenborough DVD's out, if you feel the need....

I wasn't posting to get you so upset I was actually wanting the information from you, but I have to say that the sites you posted didn't give me the information about percentages of breeding in captivity. I'm not going to get into the tortoise debate again we've done that one before in other threads just ask Chad. I do not care if nature takes it's course and whales die in the wild, but I do care if we capture them and they die from that (which more then a few have if you read Danny's posted website). I remember my field trips to the LA Zoo as a child and yes I guess that I did like seeing animals up close, but did anyone tell me when I was 6 or 7 who captured these animals and what they went through to get to that zoo? Did they sugar coat it because I was a child and they thought that that was teaching? If we are going to teach children the right ways then lets tell them everything and not keep the bad stuff out of it. You have to lay out all of the information to people just not the parts that try to make your point. My husband is a high school teacher and he brings home documentaries that teach more then anything I ever learned from school. Actually he likes them because the students tend to listen better to them then to him. I feel the same way about Animal Planet. My 12 year old son and I were watching it just last night and saw things that so spectacular it was filmed in Japan and it and the information provided were priceless. It was beautiful and my son loved it. I guarantee he learned more from that one show then he would have ever learned going to a zoo.

And as for the teaching perspective...I don't wait for schools to take my children on field trips so they can learn. Number one teachers are very busy when they are watching over twenty children at a time. I can very well teach them by taking them myself and that's what was meant by my comment. If you want to see a whale you can go on a boat and maybe you'll see one maybe you won't it's the chance you take with nature. Now, will I teach my children to never go and see captive raised killer whales? I won't know that until they're grown, but I'm hoping so.

 

[terryo]

Candy, you are saying everything I want to say, so I'm not even going to post anything. I don't have a thing to add to what you've said already. I feel the same way. All my sons are grown now and my last is in college, and they all feel the same way I do. I never sugar-coated anything and always taught them about the injustices that were inflicted on the animal world.

 

[Candy]

Thanks Terry I know that you truly love the animal itself and that's refreshing to say the least. I am so happy to hear that your boys grew up like you. I can't help but be confused from some of the replies about how big the containers are that hold these animals at Sea World. They have been showing them for a couple of days now unless I'm seeing something different then everyone else they're too small for them. I might be wrong, but I should think that there about the equivalent of keeping a full size Sulcata or Aldabra or even a Galapagos in a 10' x 10' area for the rest of it's life. I know that people fight over this issue so why is it O.K. to keep the whales like this? And I can't imagine what they would have to do to that water that they perform in to keep it so blue. What chemical are they using there? And from what I was reading from the website that alfiethetortoise posted the moms spend generations with their young. What do they do with the babies in captivity? How confused must the babies be when they are taken away from the mother? How would that be beneficial to either one mother or baby? We don't think about these things when it comes to pleasing ourselves first. Anyway Terry now I'm just rambling on, but thanks again.

 

[galvinkaos]

Candy, the pics they have shown are a holding pen between the show pen and the regular pen. It is small but it is intended to transition them from the holding pen and the training/show tank. Yes it is small.
I read but was staying away from posting. I commend Sea World for the rehab work they do with injured ocean animals. They have the parks to help offset the costs of their rehab work. They also provide education to people who would never go see those animals in the wild. They are the first ones called when a whale or a seal washes up on a beach. Pelicans and lots of other creatures have benefited from Sea World. Unfortunately there are creatures that have been harvested from the ocean that can never be returned because they are too dependent on humans. They have forgotten how to feed themselves and are too comfortable to be safe from predators. I am more upset with Japanese whalers slaughtering whales than I am with whales in captivity at Sea World.

Oh and in my opinion no animal should be punished for a normal behavior, even if it hurts or kills someone. Instinct is very dificult to stop. My condolences to her family but every one should have a job they love.
Dawna

 

[Candy]

I've been looking for a while now on trying to find out the size of the so called holding pens that these Killer Whales are kept in. If they're kept in something bigger then what I have been shown can someone please post a site that tells how big they are. A lot of you are saying that they're bigger then what they are showing on the T.V., but I can't find anything that proves that. How do you know that they are bigger and how big are they?
Please let me know so I can see what you're talking about.

 

[alfiethetortoise]

The Pens they have been showing are the 'show' pens, not the normal living quarters. I can't seem to find a site but i'll keep on searching... I can only assume that such information might be found on a Sea Wold information thing, or possibly a guidebook.

Sadly, when Orca's are bred in cpativity the captive Orca often treats it's foal with aggression. This is because the Orca hasn't experienced what will happen to it's foal. It's safer to move the foal out, than to leave it with an aggressive mother. The babies and mothers are generally kept in the same aquarium where possible. Here is a link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captive_orcas

It has transpired that Tilikum the Orca will not be punished, and investigation continues, the whales will be back on show from today but no animal trainers will enter the water untill the investigation has finished.

 

[savanna]

it is not true a baby whale is a calf

 

[cdmay]

I can't help but be confused from some of the replies about how big the containers are that hold these animals at Sea World. They have been showing them for a couple of days now unless I'm seeing something different then everyone else they're too small for them.

Candy, to get a relative view of the animals in their enclosures go to BING maps and look at the satellite images of Sea World.
You can see a complex of tanks that hold the orcas and you can even see two of them in these tanks. The first thing that you discover is that the main arena pool where the show takes place is by far the largest of the whale enclosures. But all of these habitats are of course, entirely too small for such an animal.
I have not read most of the posts on this thread so if I am repeating what others said I'm sorry... although I love the idea of Sea World as a world class aquarium (for fish and turtles) I have always felt that the keeping of numerous marine mammals in captivity for profit is inherently wrong. But what is worse are the NAUSEATING 'shows' that orcas, dolphins and sea lions are subjected to.
Sea World has accomplished some incredible things with large scale filtration, aquarium design and pool construction. They have also done some wonderful work rescuing and then rehabilitating injured marine mammals like manatees and dolphins as well as sea turtles. But Sea World's exploitation of higher marine life (like the dolphins and orcas) for profit is disgusting.

 

[terryo]

All I can say is "ditto"!

 

[ChiKat]

Great post cdmay, I completely agree!

 

[Candy]

Carl I went to that site and am going to post it for the people who have not reconized that these tanks are too small for these animals to live in. I don't know why I'm letting this story get to me so badly these few days, but it's very depressing to me to see how others don't think this is wrong. After seeing the holding tanks and the rest of the tanks Carl is right and they are no bigger then the ones they perform their shows in. What made me really sad in looking at the map is that if you pull it up to the top you can see a giant pool, it's called the ocean. I couldn't help to feel sorry for them that they are so close to freedom yet so far away. I can't help but think that the people on here would be so mad if this was done to a tortoise.

http://www.bing.com/maps/default.aspx?q=&mkt=en-US&FORM=BYFD

I tried to post the tanks themselves, but it started at the beginning so you have to pull up San Diego and go from there. Please do so you can see what we're talking about.

---

Alfiethetortoise posted this website so we can learn what they do with these whales. Maybe I overlooked something, but I have read nothing that tells me that they are better off captive. Here is the information. You decide.



Capture and breeding
Orcas are large, active and intelligent. Males range from 6–8 m long (19–26 ft) and weigh over 6 tonnes, while females range from 5–7 m (16–23 ft) and weigh about 3 to 4 tonnes.[7] It is extremely difficult to capture orcas and to provide a healthy environment for the captives. Early attempts in the 1960s caused many injuries and deaths. However, with experience the teams who specialized in the business became more adept and post-capture survival rates improved. Live captures peaked in the early 1970s, but have become increasingly rare as the marine parks have learned how to maintain theme park populations through captive breeding and artificial insemination.

[edit] North Eastern Pacific Captures

The dorsal fin and saddle patch of a resident orca in the northeastern Pacific Ocean. It may be either an adult female, or a juvenile of either gender.The first North Eastern Pacific orca was captured in November 1961 by a collecting crew from Marineland of the Pacific in Los Angeles. The 5.2 m (17 ft) orca was placed in a tank at the aquarium, where she repeatedly crashed into the walls. She died the following day. The next orca captured, Moby Doll, had been harpooned and shot in 1964 and survived for three months when brought back for display to Vancouver, British Columbia.[8] The third capture for display occurred in June 1965 when William Lechkobit found a 22 foot (6.7m) male orca in his floating salmon net that had drifted close to shore near Namu, British Columbia. The orca was sold for $8,000 to Ted Griffin, a Seattle public aquarium owner. Named after his place of capture, Namu was the subject of a film that changed some people's attitudes toward orcas[9] He survived one year in captivity and died in his pen on July 9, 1966.[10].

During the 1960s and early 1970s, nearly 70 orcas were taken from Pacific waters for exhibition. The Southern Resident community of the Northeast Pacific lost 48 of its members to captivity. By 1976, only 80 orcas were left in the community, which remains endangered. With subsequent captures, the theme parks learned more about avoiding injury during capture and subsequent care of orcas, and discovered that they could be trained to perform tricks, a great attraction to visitors. As commercial demand increased, growing numbers of Pacific orcas were captured, peaking in 1970.[11]

A turning point came with a mass capture of orcas from the L-25 pod in August 1970 at Penn Cove, Puget Sound off the coast of Washington. The Penn Cove capture became controversial due to the large number of wild orcas that were taken (seven) and the number of deaths that resulted: four juveniles died, as well as one adult female who drowned when she became tangled in a net while attempting to reach her calf. In an attempt to conceal the deaths from the public, all five of the whales had their bellies slit open and filled with rocks, their tails weighted down with anchors and chains. The facts surrounding their deaths were discovered three months later after three of the dead whales washed ashore on Whidbey Island. Public concern about the welfare of the animals and the impact of captures on the wild pods led to the Marine Mammal Protection Act being passed in 1972 by the US Congress, protecting orcas from being harassed or killed, and requiring special permits for capture. Since then, few wild orcas have been captured in Northeastern Pacific waters.[12][13]

Lolita, originally known as Tokitae, was a survivor of the Penn Cove captures. She was about six years old at time of capture and is now the oldest captive orca. Lolita is the subject of the documentary Lolita: Slave to Entertainment, released in 2008.[14] Various groups still argue that Lolita should be released into the wild.[15][16][17]

[edit] Icelandic captures

Keiko is weighed as he is loaded into his specially made transport tank at the Oregon State Aquarium, on Sept. 9, 1998.When the US Marine Mammal Protection Act of 1972 effectively stopped the capture of Pacific orcas, exhibitors such as Sea World found a regime more tolerant of orca captures in Iceland. Icelandic herring fishermen had traditionally seen orcas as competitors for their catch, and sale of live orcas promised a large new source of income. 48 live orcas captured in Icelandic waters were exported to marine parks between 1976 and 1988. The capture process was based on luring the orcas by dumping leftovers from herring fishing in front of the pod, capturing the orcas in a purse seine net, selecting desirable animals and hauling them onboard in a specially designed frame, then placing them in foam-lined boxes full of seawater.[18] However, restrictions on US orca import permits and advances in captive breeding programs meant that the market never became as large as expected. Growing concern from conservationists and animal rights activists has caused the Icelandic government to limit the number of orcas that may be captured each year.[19]

Perhaps the best known of the Icelandic captives is Keiko, caught in 1979 and sold to the Icelandic aquarium in Hafnarfjörður. Three years later, he was sold to Marineland Canada, where he first started performing for the public and developed skin lesions indicative of poor health. He was then sold to Reino Aventura (now named Six Flags Mexico), an amusement park in Mexico City, in 1985. He was the star of the 1993 movie Free Willy, the publicity from which led to an effort by Warner Brothers Studio to find him a better home. Using donations from the studio, Craig McCaw and millions of school children, the Oregon Coast Aquarium in Newport, Oregon spent over $7 million to construct facilities to return him to health with the hope of returning him to the wild. He was airlifted to his new home in January 1996, where he soon regained weight. In September 1998, he was flown to Klettsvik Bay in Vestmannaeyjar in Iceland, and gradually reintroduced to the wild, returning to the open sea in July 2002. Keiko died from pneumonia in December 2003. He had become lethargic and had a loss of appetite. He beached himself in the morning and died aged 27 years.[20][21]

[edit] North Western Pacific captures
1,477 orcas were hunted in Japanese waters between 1948 and 1972, 545 of them around Hokkaido. Killer whale encounters in Japanese waters are now rare.[22] In 1993 a group of ten orcas was corralled by Japanese fisherman banging on iron rods and using water bombs to disorientate the animals and force them into a bay near Taiji, Wakayama. They were held in the bay for two days before being auctioned to Japanese marine parks. Five animals were released, and the other five transported via road or sea to the aquariums. Three are now dead. The two survivors live in isolation in two separate Japanese aquaria.[23]

The first live orca captured in Russia was an 18-foot-long female estimated to be about six years old, captured off the Pacific coast of the Kamchatka district on September 26, 2003. She was transferred over 7,000 miles to a facility owned by the Utrish Dolphinarium on the Black Sea, where she died in October 2003 after less than a month in captivity.[24]

[edit] Orcas born in captivity
A growing number of theme-park orcas have been born in captivity. Kalina, a female orca born in September 1985 at SeaWorld Orlando, was the first captive orca calf to survive more than few days. Kalina's mother is an Icelandic female named Katina, and her father, Winston (also known as Ramu III), was a Pacific Southern Resident, making Kalina an Atlantic/Pacific hybrid — a unique situation that would not have occurred in the wild.[25]

The first orca conceived through artificial insemination was born to Kasatka at the SeaWorld park in San Diego in September 2001.[26] A female orca named Kohana, the second orca conceived in this manner, was born at the same park eight months later.[27] Artificial insemination lets park owners maintain a healthier genetic mix in the small groups of orcas at each park while avoiding the stress of moving orcas for breeding purposes.[28]

The practice of exhibiting orcas born in captivity is less controversial than of retaining free-born orcas, since the captive-born orcas have known no other world and may not be able to adapt to life in the wild. Captive breeding also promises to reduce incentives to capture wild orcas.[29] However, in January 2002 the Miami Seaquarium stated that captive orcas are dying faster than they are being born, and as it is virtually impossible to obtain orcas captured from the wild, the business of exhibiting captive orcas may eventually disappear.[30]

[edit] Orca captivity locations
As of February 2010, 42 orcas are held captive at facilities in North and South America, Europe and Japan, providing entertainment for theme park visitors.[31] Building the physical infrastructure of the parks has required major capital expenditure, but as the star attractions the orcas are arguably the most valuable and irreplaceable assets. Exhibition of captive orcas generates large revenues, and the theme parks continue to research ways to improve the health, fertility, longevity and general well-being of the orcas in their care.

 

[cdmay]

Candy...you viewed the San Diego Sea World? I was speaking of the one in Orlando but I also took a look at the San Diego complex which seems to be different. In either case, it is not enough room.