Hate that people buy Sulcatas and dont know how to car for them

[tortadise]

The best way I can describe the benefits of all around hyrdration, is on different levels. Especially with young tortoises they grow at such an accelerated rate, that their are different elements of keeping them hyrdrated. One of those elements or factors is soaking numerous times a day. Others are constant humidity, allowing the hyrdration to keep with the growth of the baby in an ambient circumstance. humidity will keep moisture(ie hyrdration) to its skin, carapace, and exterior make up. Soaks keep the internal as well as the exterior hyrdrated. In the wild most "dry" climate or topographical "desert" species (sullies really arent desert at all, they come from grassland savanas) hatch out during the wet seasons in the location where they are found. As well as living in conditions that are more moist and humid. Essentially they are living in a micro climate. The grasses and burrow they live in while so small is like a forest to them, so they get a totally different exposure to elements that we as a large animal would see as wow its hot and dry. But if you were to place your hands and get into the lower systems of grasses and bushes where these wee ones are growing up in it would be very humid, wet condition in relation to their size. Its like the rainforest they have diffrent levels of tree canopies, and heights which in turn make mircro climates at each level of canopy. This is just on a smaller scale. hence the total hydration method, of keeping the constant soaks, as well as the humidity up for an all around hrydrated baby.

What a great read.

Why thanks. Just my best way to give on soaking, in relation to captive raising against the wild growing ones. Ive never been to Africa and observed or followed offspring, but I have been to the rainforest. Also In construction we are use to moisture meters and different soil, and grass types to stabilize earth before placing concrete. So I just try to utilize my knowledge in this field as well. Its weird if you use a laboratory hydrometer in one spot like that. below tall grasses and above. the moisture contents varies more than you would think in just a few feet. Not a proven theory on the babies in the wild. But just my take on it.

 

[Tom]

I may be not understanding Eric's writing correctly, but I don't see him saying not to "occasionally" soak a tortoise, more he is stating that you should not HAVE to force a soak several times a day or even daily as some folks seem to think they should have to do because it seems to be the current popular belief by some. He is also saying, check your environment if your raising your tortoise so it "dries" out as quickly as some are implying their animals are doing. Eric, I applaud and thank you for being brave enough not to blindly follow nor to turn a blind eye and just pretend you agree with the herd mentality.

He did not type the sentence, "Do not soak your tortoise." Of that you are correct, but that is exactly what his words and arguments are expressing.

Nobody is saying that anybody has to soak any tortoise several times a day. Where is that coming from? I and many others advocate one soak a day for tiny hatchlings, with a gradual reduction as they gain size. Your exaggerations are growing. And what is this term "FORCED soaking". It implies someone standing maniacally over their tortoise with a white knuckled hand clutching the carapace making the animal sit in a tub of water against its every will. That's just stupid. I pick them up. I set them in some warm water. I rinse them off and put them back in their enclosure. There is no "FORCE". Except maybe a little, "May the "force" be with you..." for a few of us.

No one is turning any blind eyes or following herd mentality here and your insinuations otherwise are VERY insulting. The last guy who stooped to that sort of tactic got himself removed as the troll that he was. You scan through the 100's of pictures of wet smooth sulcatas and leopards on this forum and then tell me people are blindly following a herd mentality... Its not following some herd if it works better than whatever was done before. In other words: I like ice cream. It tastes good. I don't eat because other people eat it. I eat it because I like it. Just because other people like it too does not mean any of us are following some sort of herd mentality. Keeping babies hydrated works. Plain and simple. Soaks are a simple easy way to make sure that babies are staying hydrated. To denounce them, or imply that they are not needed, or that its overboard, and we are all some sort of mindless sheepish herd, is potentially harmful to tortoises. If someone soaks their tortoise on a day where the tortoise got plenty of water on its own, it hurts nothing. NOTHING. If they choose not to soak, and the tortoise did not get enough water on its own, for whatever reason, then harm eventually COULD be done. SOOOOOOOOO, why are we arguing yet again?

And checking my enclosures is fine. I checked them. They are dry as they always are and always will be. It is over 100 degrees here with single digit humidity, as it always is every August. What enclosure adjustments should I be making for this? I can run sprinklers all day long until the whole enclosure is a big mud pit. The air is still dry and they still need a lot of water to stay healthy and grow healthy. And THAT is my point to Eric. Just because he doesn't need to soak in his individual situation, doesn't mean nobody else does either.

 

[lovelyrosepetal]

Hey, I know that I am a newbie and that I know very little when it comes to tortoises but I happen to agree with Tom on anything tortoise. I have seen his tortoises and I know that he loves them and takes fabulous care of them. I have seen other tortoises that were not kept humid and did not have access to water and the pyramiding is horrible. I think it is so sad to see those sweet tortoises kept in those conditions. It seems easy to change, give them water, soak them and in my case, spray them. Such little things to do yet the rewards are huge. EricIvins said it was BS and I just wondered why it was BS. I wondered how, if I changed my husbandry, I could get the same results as Tom when it is so hard to keep up the humidity and my torts shells get dry if I don't spray and soaking them seems to be beneficial. I live in Oklahoma and it is not as dry here as it is in California, but it is still not as humid as some places. I would like to know what EricIvins would do differently. I don't think I would agree with him but I am interested to know so I have more information at my fingertips. They say knowledge is power and the more I do for my torts the better I feel. I am also not an animal rights person, I do feel that if you have a pet it is up to you to take care of it the best you can. The better I can take care of my tortoises then the happier it will make me. I have to say, I disagree with the term "force soaking" because, and here I think Tom's imagery was perfect, I don't feel like I am subjecting my tortoise to something that is harmful and that is bad. I am giving my tort the best care I can. I will stop rambling now, but I am still wondering what EricIvins would do and if he has ever tried soaking his. Mine like soaks, they just bask in them and his might also.

 

[Tom]

NO! Lovelyrosepetal NO! STOP thinking for yourself and trying to learn anything. You MUST follow everything I say blindly and do it all to a "T", just as I say. Straying from the herd is NOT allowed. {Slams IRON fist on the table with a loud thump!, and laughs maniacally..... MOOOHAAAAHAAAAAHAAAAAAA...}

 

[tortadise]

LOL. My god man, your out of control. Just kidding.

 

[Jacqui]

NO! Lovelyrosepetal NO! STOP thinking for yourself and trying to learn anything. You MUST follow everything I say blindly and do it all to a "T", just as I say. Straying from the herd is NOT allowed. {Slams IRON fist on the table with a loud thump!, and laughs maniacally..... MOOOHAAAAHAAAAAHAAAAAAA...}

I love it, when your fully honest Tom.

---

He did not type the sentence, "Do not soak your tortoise." Of that you are correct, but that is exactly what his words and arguments are expressing.

Tom, why is it YOU can put words in people's mouths, but other's can not do the same to you? You just agreed and I directly quote your own writing "He (Eric) did not type the sentence". If you can not be bothered to read Eric's words, can you atleast read your own??? How can you say that is "exactly what his words were saying"? Those are your words Tom. So now your a mind reader too????

 

[Tom]

And I love it when you are not sarcastic at all Jacqui.

 

[Jacqui]

. And what is this term "FORCED soaking". It implies someone standing maniacally over their tortoise with a white knuckled hand clutching the carapace making the animal sit in a tub of water against its every will. That's just stupid. I pick them up. I set them in some warm water. I rinse them off and put them back in their enclosure. There is no "FORCE". it.

Forced = involuntary, lacking the freedom of choice. The tortoise is not given the choice to get into the water, you force him into it. Then once in the water, the sides are deep enough the tortoise can not get out on his own. So choice is taken away from him on getting in, getting out, and how long he must stay in the water... thus "forced soakings".

---

The last guy who stooped to that sort of tactic got himself removed as the troll that he was.

Would you like to say who this person was? If is the person I and others believe you are referring to, IF he was a "troll" as you call him, then you too would lay claim to the same reference about you.

---

Now Tom that I have cleared up your lack of knowledge, if you want to continue your foolish arguing with me, take it off open forum, please. This is going way off this thread original topic.

 

[Tom]

Force is word that adds a lot of emotion to an otherwise unemotional subject. I'm not "forcing" anything. I gently pick them up and set them in a tub. There is no "force" associated with any of it.

It's like the anti-gunners manufacturing the term "assault weapon" to make the ignorant public dislike certain cosmetic styles of rifles. There is no such thing as an "aussalt weapon" pertaining to guns. A chair is an "aussalt weapon" if I am beating you over the head with it.

Using the word "force" creates a negative connotation with a positive action, and I don't like it. I don't agree with it, and I don't think it is a term that should be used for something that saves the lives of the tortoises that we all care so much about.

 

[chris_m90731]

The militancy I refer to stems from the whole humidity argument. I've only raised a few tortoises, but they've all been healthy. Yet, I've known and seen many a sulcata tortoise raised in a dry environment -- which I happen to agree with. It's reeeallll easy, just look @ their environment in the wild. It's ridiculous to mist an adult sulcata. And since I was a bit shocked by the pyramiding/humidity connection, I did some research. Re-read my Richard C. Paull books, etc. I don't see how one can deny that too much protein too soon is the cause of pyramiding. This started when unsavory sulcata breeders were trying to speed the growth of their hatchlings because of the 2inch rule in the 90s...

 

[Jacqui]

Force is word that adds a lot of emotion to an otherwise unemotional subject. I'm not "forcing" anything. I gently pick them up and set them in a tub. There is no "force" associated with any of it.

Really Tom, why bring up another gun debate? Do we really need another one or can we stay on subject here...tortoises. No matter how in your own mind you do it or why, it is still force (without free choice). As to something unemotional, since some (notice Tom I said some) tortoises have a strong dislike for soaking, it can STRESS them. Stress I think does fit as an emotion and stress is a very negative thing. Now can we please get back on topic, instead of you drawing us further off?

 

[acrantophis]

RO water is not positive for animal health. The pH is way too low and it lacks any minerals at all. I have used RO water for tadpoles and they died within minutes. There is a supplement called RO right which is sold for the purpose of equalizing and buffering the pH and replacing many of the minerals. RO and de-ionized-water are also harmful for humans to drink. This may sound crazy but I have run hundreds of experiments using amphibian eggs and larvae.

 

[Jacqui]

RO water is not positive for animal health. The pH is way too low and it lacks any minerals at all. I have used RO water for tadpoles and they died within minutes. There is a supplement called RO right which is sold for the purpose of equalizing and buffering the pH and replacing many of the minerals. RO and de-ionized-water are also harmful for humans to drink. This may sound crazy but I have run hundreds of experiments using amphibian eggs and larvae.

RO water meaning reverse osmosis water? Huh, I did not know this, but then I also have never really checked into what all is involved with the process.

 

[Tom]

It's not a gun debate and it's not off topic. It is an example of a "charged" word being used to push someone's mind in a predetermined direction. And it is a technique that has worked since the invention of language itself.

 

[MooingTricycle]

Does anybody have any actual measurements and observations in regards to wild sulcata environment? Field data by established herpetologists? Im interested to know.

Im keen on facts, not speculation.

If results are producing a healthy tortoise in a non natural environment ( because captivity is NOT natural) Id say those results are pretty indicative of a proper method in raising these animals. If many methods work, what are the parameters in WHICH they work? Location( location environment), keeper experience and keeper ability to monitor the slightest details in growth, environmental factors( of the setup/housing)... All of these things matter. Instead of personal conjecture, id like to see visual fact that a particular method is superior than the other.

 

[Tom]

The militancy I refer to stems from the whole humidity argument. I've only raised a few tortoises, but they've all been healthy. Yet, I've known and seen many a sulcata tortoise raised in a dry environment -- which I happen to agree with. It's reeeallll easy, just look @ their environment in the wild. It's ridiculous to mist an adult sulcata. And since I was a bit shocked by the pyramiding/humidity connection, I did some research. Re-read my Richard C. Paull books, etc. I don't see how one can deny that too much protein too soon is the cause of pyramiding. This started when unsavory sulcata breeders were trying to speed the growth of their hatchlings because of the 2inch rule in the 90s...

Chris, I know you are new to the forum, but you are arguing something that was hashed out two years ago. Rather than spending an hour typing it all out here again, would you mind reading the "End of Pyramiding" thread and then coming back and debating from that point? I have the same old books as you. They were based entirely on incorrect speculation and the techniques in them did not work. Your own tortoise shows the effects, as do mine. Yes many from those days survived it and are alive and reproducing today, but we have learned so much more about them since that time. It is exactly from looking at their environment in the wild that led us to some of this new info. Misting adults is totally unnecessary, you are right. Once they get to around 6-8" the growth pattern is set, and from that point they all begin to smooth out regardless of the environment. Again, you can see this in your adult and mine. There was an Austrian lab study done in 2003 that attempted to show the correlation between pyramiding and protein intake. They accidentally ended up proving that protein has nothing to do with it and humidity had everything to do with it. In the wild ding the dry part of the year, all the sulcatas stay underground where its warm and humid. They drag grass and weeds down into their burrows toward the end of the wet season and this what they eat for 8 or 9 months until the rains return. Babies hatch during the rainy season when it is warm, wet, humid and marshy. My friend Tomas from Senegal used the term "marsh" to describe where he witnessed hatchlings in the wild. There is even a picture of a wild sulcata taking a dip in a marshy area in the book that my friend helped to write. For some reason all the old books completely ignored this fact and chose to focus on the above ground conditions during the 8 or 9 month dry season. None of them experience the dry season. They avoid it underground.

Anywhere you research outside of this forum you will find the same info. Its never bee right and it s not right now either. They cant show you pics of animals without pyramiding because they couldn't grow them that way. The only exceptions are wild caught ones, or ones that were raised in areas with high humidity, like Florida.

 

[DeanS]

LMMFAO! Tom...there's those that get it...and those that don't! AND WON'T!

 

[BowandWalter]

I always seem to learn more from threads that turn into disagreements. People just start throwing knowledge around like dodge-balls, it's really fun.

 

[lovelyrosepetal]

Hey Tom, I am sorry that I want to learn and become a better tortoise keeper I know, how dare I try to learn more. I also did not know that you advocated soaking adult sulcatas. I am sure that it would not hurt but I am sure it could help. I also think that the term "force soaking" is insulting. My babies did not like their soaks at first, but now they love them. It is like giving kids broccoli. Just because they don't like them the first few times does not mean you should stop. It is good for them. I am sorry that this thread has been so emotionally charged and I feel kind of responsible. I have hijacked this thread in a way. I just wanted you all to know that I think information is good, expressing your beliefs is good but just because you don't agree with something does not make your belief bad ( doesn't mean it is good ). I also thought the gun analogy was a good one. I think that Tom is hilarious while still teaching us more about how to best take care of our torts. All right, enough of my opinions, I won't keep harping on all of this.

 

[Neal]

I always seem to learn more from threads that turn into disagreements. People just start throwing knowledge around like dodge-balls, it's really fun.

lol