Sulley, who did you get this of? Do you know who the breeder was? I am not aware of anyone in the UK actively breeding hybrids on purpose. In Europe yes, but not in the UK.
Hybrid - leopard and sulcata cross
- Thread starter portsmouthtortoises
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Flintus, I picked her up from a lady in Swindon and all the information that she had was that a man produced one clutch, I'm not sure if it was accidental or not. I haven't seen or heard of any others in the UK so far.
While I do not approve of hybrids, it is interesting to know that a leocata clutch has been produced in the UK.
The only time I am bothered by hybrids is if they do not have a chance of naturally occurring in the wild. A Afrikan Leo and sully do interbreed naturally, so a hybrid species from them is not weird at all. Say a star mix with a sully would bother me though.
How are they polluting the gene pool? There is not even a tiny chance that these torts will ever pollute the gene pool of these animals. First of all, they are in the UK. Unless I am missing something, I am quite sure these animals have 0% chance of making their way to Africa and breeding with either species there. These are pets. Pure gene pools in the pet industry is a pipe dream. There are always going to be people out there that want to test the boundaries of mother nature. There is nothing any of us can do to stop it. I am of the opinion that creating animals for the pet trade has to be different than breeding to ensure the survival of the species. Would I breed my Leos with my Sulcatas? Nope. Not a chance. Would I buy a mixed species tort if given the oportunity and the means to do so? Yep. In a heartbeat. While that may go against the popular opinion here, at least I am man enough to admit my curiosity and not simply go with the general concensus and say I would not while hiding a baby Leocata in my basement.
I think the stigma surronding cross breeding tortoises will keep this in the dark for a bit longer.
"I am of the opinion that creating animals for the pet trade has to be different than breeding to ensure the survival of the species"
I often wonder why it is humans decide that pet tortoise are of a lesser value than that of a wild tortoise? Especially when so many think it is also alright to rip a tortoise from the wild and then lay claim to the reason they do it is to "mix up the gene pull"... This is the damage that occurs when another living creature is deemed a "pet" and not seen as an equal living creature....just because we can do something does not mean we should....
Back to topic here, that is a lovely tortoise--just as all others are....
I often wonder why it is humans decide that pet tortoise are of a lesser value than that of a wild tortoise? Especially when so many think it is also alright to rip a tortoise from the wild and then lay claim to the reason they do it is to "mix up the gene pull"... This is the damage that occurs when another living creature is deemed a "pet" and not seen as an equal living creature....just because we can do something does not mean we should....
Back to topic here, that is a lovely tortoise--just as all others are....
It's a beauty for sure. I'd have taken it, too!
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I think it's wrong ,, I honestly think the only reason why anyone would do this is cause they don't have the money to buy two adult leopards , someone gives them a sulcata ,so now they breeders,, same thing when they did it with macaws,, it's wrong in so many ways ,,,
@Saleama there are all possibilities of them reaching africa maybe not from the UK, this is not the only case of cross breeding.... there are many others too.... and who is there to ensure these creatures don't reach the native land..... as the invasive species reach to different lands like the Asian Carp in the Mississippi basin all thanks to human action or technically known as Anthropogenic actions.... there is always a chance of pollution of the gene pool from one source or the other.... and pet industry is not shy of the interaction with the wild.......
and the reason for that is clearly visible in the posts in this thread.. "Everybody likes the way this specimen looks and is curious to know what becomes of him" slowly it will become a trend to buy these hybrids as they look so beautiful... the demand will increase and more and more people will start crossbreeding ... and these people are not responsible breeders like the ones present in our forum... those kind of breeders are only after money... the uniqueness and beauty of these creatures creates the demand in near future ==> the demand urges some money hungry people to supply this demand... and maybe in the near future these specimens will be as common as the sulcata or leopard tortoise unless this is stopped at this early stage ....
i know you guys are very responsible and you will never think of cross breeding...
and i respect your curiosity as well as the beauty of these specimens.... but this curiosity and the liking alone will create/generate a Demand for these tortoises in the near future... similar to the way the "morph" craze spread in the python world/industry.... although those pythons are not of different species or genus but serve as a good example to show how this uniqueness and liking creates demands in the pet market....
i am no expert on genetics or breeding.... but as an Animal lover and Naturalist... i greatly respect the powers and intricacy of Nature's genetic mechanism and i would never dare to manipulate or even interfere with it.... we humans have done too much damage to the flora and fauna be leading them to the edge of extinction and now we humans are trying to play with genetics just to produce Aesthetically pleasing progeny...
and regarding the specimens that have been bred already i suggest that those specimens be acquired by responsible people like you and then the breeder be warned and clearly explained that he/she should not do so in future or the consequences would be really bad for nature...
and the ethics nature should not be sacrificed just for the PET MARKET..... the term and the Idea of "PET" shouldn't even exist especially for the wild exotic species.... but still we humans keep them as pets and i am included in it and i am guilty too...
and the reason for that is clearly visible in the posts in this thread.. "Everybody likes the way this specimen looks and is curious to know what becomes of him" slowly it will become a trend to buy these hybrids as they look so beautiful... the demand will increase and more and more people will start crossbreeding ... and these people are not responsible breeders like the ones present in our forum... those kind of breeders are only after money... the uniqueness and beauty of these creatures creates the demand in near future ==> the demand urges some money hungry people to supply this demand... and maybe in the near future these specimens will be as common as the sulcata or leopard tortoise unless this is stopped at this early stage ....
i know you guys are very responsible and you will never think of cross breeding...
and i respect your curiosity as well as the beauty of these specimens.... but this curiosity and the liking alone will create/generate a Demand for these tortoises in the near future... similar to the way the "morph" craze spread in the python world/industry.... although those pythons are not of different species or genus but serve as a good example to show how this uniqueness and liking creates demands in the pet market....
i am no expert on genetics or breeding.... but as an Animal lover and Naturalist... i greatly respect the powers and intricacy of Nature's genetic mechanism and i would never dare to manipulate or even interfere with it.... we humans have done too much damage to the flora and fauna be leading them to the edge of extinction and now we humans are trying to play with genetics just to produce Aesthetically pleasing progeny...
and regarding the specimens that have been bred already i suggest that those specimens be acquired by responsible people like you and then the breeder be warned and clearly explained that he/she should not do so in future or the consequences would be really bad for nature...
and the ethics nature should not be sacrificed just for the PET MARKET..... the term and the Idea of "PET" shouldn't even exist especially for the wild exotic species.... but still we humans keep them as pets and i am included in it and i am guilty too...
But *if* these animals are sterile, it really doesn't matter if they make it back to Africa some how right? Not that I am advocating for the breeding of these animals by saying this. They are indeed beautiful.
But since we really do not know if these animals are sterile....
Elohi(Earth
But since we really do not know if these animals are sterile....
Elohi(Earth
So... You are saying that a cross bred captive bred tortoise in the UK or US or anywhere OTHER than Africa, actually has a chance to make it back to Africa? No way. Not ever going to happen. Who is going to smuggle a tortoise INTO Africa? Your examples are also not at all realevant. We are not talking about an invasive species being set free. We are talking about animals that are being bred in captivity far far away from their native lands. Not one single wild african tortoise will ever come into contct with one of these animals unless by some freak of nature a sulcata leopard mix developes the ability to get a visa and passport and buy a ticket to Africa. Gene pool polution is simply not a thing when speaking of these pets bred for the pet trade. No underground terrorists are ploting the destruction of either of these species through cross breeding. We are not talking about walking cat fish or carp either. We are talking about tortoises. Do you know what happens to most of these tortoises when they get let go or lost in the UK or the US? They die as soon as winter hits. They do not board cargo vessels and book passage to the mother country. And I will leave with this: Why is it ok to cross breed every other animal that we keep as pets yet at the slightest hint of that being suggested in the tortoise world, people jump up and say how wrong it is? Correct me if I am wrong, but is there really such a thing as a pure species or tortoise in captivity? I think sub-species have been so inbred that this is trully a pipe dream and trying to stop things like a cross Sulcata/Leopard is really just grasping at straws in an attempt to keep SOME sort of control on it. Everybody raves about the Ghost redfoots but is breeding for specific traits any different than breeding for a new cross species tortoise?
And one other thing concerning your Pet comment.
"and the ethics nature should not be sacrificed just for the PET MARKET..... the term and the Idea of "PET" shouldn't even exist especially for the wild exotic species.... but still we humans keep them as pets and i am included in it and i am guilty too..."
I have many different tortoises and turtles. Of them, only 3, all Russian tortoises, were EVER wild and exotic. We can not have our cake and eat it too. As you said, you are guilty too. If all of us is honest with ourselves and others, we will admit that we keep these animals because we love them and all the benefits we get from keeping them. I rescue them because I love them but I would be lying if I claimed that it was a selfless act purely for the sake of the torts and turts. I keep CAPTIVE BRED animals that are no more wild than my two dogs. None of my tortoises and very few of my turtles would survive if released in the wild.
The pet trade is what it is. As sad as it may be for you to acept it, the motive for most IS profit and again, sadly, there is no end to what some people will do to make that profit. To try and deny what is going on or how things work based on your belief in how you think they should work does no good for the animals in question. I said if I came across one of these animals I would buy it in an instant and I would. But I would not seek one out or try and make some with my little Buddies. i also do not buy or adopt form people who would do this purposely. But I am not going to say it is wrong to do so based on some transparent argument that has no basis in reality. Rather, I would like to follow the lives of some of these guys and see if there is any actual danger or bad effects that directly effect these individual animals. The gene pool of the wild Sulcatas and Leopards is quite safe from their intrusion.
"and the ethics nature should not be sacrificed just for the PET MARKET..... the term and the Idea of "PET" shouldn't even exist especially for the wild exotic species.... but still we humans keep them as pets and i am included in it and i am guilty too..."
I have many different tortoises and turtles. Of them, only 3, all Russian tortoises, were EVER wild and exotic. We can not have our cake and eat it too. As you said, you are guilty too. If all of us is honest with ourselves and others, we will admit that we keep these animals because we love them and all the benefits we get from keeping them. I rescue them because I love them but I would be lying if I claimed that it was a selfless act purely for the sake of the torts and turts. I keep CAPTIVE BRED animals that are no more wild than my two dogs. None of my tortoises and very few of my turtles would survive if released in the wild.
The pet trade is what it is. As sad as it may be for you to acept it, the motive for most IS profit and again, sadly, there is no end to what some people will do to make that profit. To try and deny what is going on or how things work based on your belief in how you think they should work does no good for the animals in question. I said if I came across one of these animals I would buy it in an instant and I would. But I would not seek one out or try and make some with my little Buddies. i also do not buy or adopt form people who would do this purposely. But I am not going to say it is wrong to do so based on some transparent argument that has no basis in reality. Rather, I would like to follow the lives of some of these guys and see if there is any actual danger or bad effects that directly effect these individual animals. The gene pool of the wild Sulcatas and Leopards is quite safe from their intrusion.
Please, everyone...let's don't allow this thread to get into a pissing match.
Just as a point of fact...I'm sure that the invasive species referred to in the above posts were not covertly smuggled. It's just something that happened. RES weren't smuggled, they are legally sold in other countries. So isn't it feasible to think in the future sometime maybe a leocata might be legally imported into Africa?
And there have been the occasional offspring by the supposedly sterile mule (donkey/horse cross).
Just as a point of fact...I'm sure that the invasive species referred to in the above posts were not covertly smuggled. It's just something that happened. RES weren't smuggled, they are legally sold in other countries. So isn't it feasible to think in the future sometime maybe a leocata might be legally imported into Africa?
And there have been the occasional offspring by the supposedly sterile mule (donkey/horse cross).
