Hybrid - leopard and sulcata cross

[FLINTUS]

So... You are saying that a cross bred captive bred tortoise in the UK or US or anywhere OTHER than Africa, actually has a chance to make it back to Africa? No way. Not ever going to happen. Who is going to smuggle a tortoise INTO Africa? Your examples are also not at all realevant. We are not talking about an invasive species being set free. We are talking about animals that are being bred in captivity far far away from their native lands. Not one single wild african tortoise will ever come into contct with one of these animals unless by some freak of nature a sulcata leopard mix developes the ability to get a visa and passport and buy a ticket to Africa. Gene pool polution is simply not a thing when speaking of these pets bred for the pet trade. No underground terrorists are ploting the destruction of either of these species through cross breeding. We are not talking about walking cat fish or carp either. We are talking about tortoises. Do you know what happens to most of these tortoises when they get let go or lost in the UK or the US? They die as soon as winter hits. They do not board cargo vessels and book passage to the mother country. And I will leave with this: Why is it ok to cross breed every other animal that we keep as pets yet at the slightest hint of that being suggested in the tortoise world, people jump up and say how wrong it is? Correct me if I am wrong, but is there really such a thing as a pure species or tortoise in captivity? I think sub-species have been so inbred that this is trully a pipe dream and trying to stop things like a cross Sulcata/Leopard is really just grasping at straws in an attempt to keep SOME sort of control on it. Everybody raves about the Ghost redfoots but is breeding for specific traits any different than breeding for a new cross species tortoise?

Not entirely true, and a bit of a generalization. To say that things will be exported out of their country and never taken back in, is wrong. A few reintroduction programmes have been tried for species of chelonia. Africa does have a reason to have countries 'smuggled' in for there is a market for reptiles there, particularly in South Africa, where the pardalis part could have come from. A lot of African countries are now well developed enough for smuggling in to happen. All the tortoise would require is the import-a bit more complicated due to complicated S.African rules I believe-, export and CITES papers. What happens if a Brit or an American retires there and brings his/her tortoises? The problem with cross-breeding does not stem from those offspring, but if the offspring are placed outside the 'hardcore hobbyist ring' and into the pet trade.
Domestic dogs and other domestic pets are one species, they have breeds. Tortoises are still genetically different species, which separated thousands of years ago due to shifting of plates and climate change.
Most-in fact, nearly all,- WC specimens will be, to use your terminology, 'pure.' I do agree that subspecies are not taken note of enough-particularly in the Russian species-, but many efforts are made for locality specific breeding groups. There is a huge difference in DNA between pardalis subspecies and Sulcata compared to a pardalis pardalis and pardalis babcocki

 

[Saleama]

Not entirely true, and a bit of a generalization. To say that things will be exported out of their country and never taken back in, is wrong. A few reintroduction programmes have been tried for species of chelonia. Africa does have a reason to have countries 'smuggled' in for there is a market for reptiles there, particularly in South Africa, where the pardalis part could have come from. A lot of African countries are now well developed enough for smuggling in to happen. All the tortoise would require is the import-a bit more complicated due to complicated S.African rules I believe-, export and CITES papers. What happens if a Brit or an American retires there and brings his/her tortoises? The problem with cross-breeding does not stem from those offspring, but if the offspring are placed outside the 'hardcore hobbyist ring' and into the pet trade.
Domestic dogs and other domestic pets are one species, they have breeds. Tortoises are still genetically different species, which separated thousands of years ago due to shifting of plates and climate change.
Most-in fact, nearly all,- WC specimens will be, to use your terminology, 'pure.' I do agree that subspecies are not taken note of enough-particularly in the Russian species-, but many efforts are made for locality specific breeding groups. There is a huge difference in DNA between pardalis subspecies and Sulcata compared to a pardalis pardalis and pardalis babcocki

I agree. But can you tell me of a single reintroduction effort that would A) Be trying to reintroduce Sulcatas and Leopards to areas they are not from. B) Not know the difference between a tortoise, and we are specifically speaking of sulcatas and leopards here, that is neither one of these species but rather one that is a cross bred animal? And C) Be using random animals created for the pet trade in reintroduction efforts.
I find it highly unlikely, almost 0.00% in fact, that one of these animals could get accidently released by a program such as you describe.
And the retirement argument? Really? I would love to see the numbers of retirees moving to Africa with their cross bred tortoise and then further extrampulate how many of these tortoises escape into the wilds to polute the gene pool. Again, I would guess that number is closer to 0 than it is to any other number, whole or in fractions.
And I understand the difference in species and breed very well. We seem to have many people that are in fact trying to create "breeds" of tortoise if you allow for me to use that word. Sunset hypos, West Coast Ghosts... There are many right here on this forum. A rose by any other name is still a rose.

 

[shanu303]

Not one single wild african tortoise will ever come into contct with one of these animals unless by some freak of nature a sulcata leopard mix developes the ability to get a visa and passport and buy a ticket to Africa.

first of all i didn't say they'll cross on their own.... i can't understand why you even put that up...

---

but back to the topic....
it's not hard to get a transfer certificate if one was to transfer this leocata to Africa....

Who is going to smuggle a tortoise INTO Africa? Your examples are also not at all realevant. We are not talking about an invasive species being set free. We are talking about animals that are being bred in captivity far far away from their native lands. Not one single wild african tortoise will ever come into contct with one of these animals

i never told anything about "SMUGGLED"... they aren't Radiated tortoise that one would have to smuggle to cross borders... and Europe isn't far from Africa...

Why is it ok to cross breed every other animal that we keep as pets yet at the slightest hint of that being suggested in the tortoise world, people jump up and say how wrong it is? Correct me if I am wrong, but is there really such a thing as a pure species or tortoise in captivity? I think sub-species have been so inbred that this is trully a pipe dream and trying to stop things like a cross Sulcata/Leopard is really just grasping at straws in an attempt to keep SOME sort of control on it.

i think you are getting me wrong here.... i don't question and criticise the cross breeding just in tortoises.... i am against any kind of cross breeding.... and since this is a tortoise forum and we discussing tortoise i raised my concern only with them....
and another thing is this is not same as subspecies or true species..... they both belong to 2 DIFFERENT GENUS
Sulcata being Geochelone
Leopard being Stigmochelys
i know earlier leopard torts were place under Geochelone but there was a valid reason to shift them to their own Genus....
and yes there is something known as pure species in captivity.... the radiated torts, ploughshares, platynota.... they are pure species...

Everybody raves about the Ghost redfoots but is breeding for specific traits any different than breeding for a new cross species tortoise?

then according to your belief of cross breeding... crossing Humans with Chimpanzees is ethical isn't it?
and there is WHOLE LOT of difference between breeding for specific trait and Cross breeding... while breeding for specific trait is due to Random genetic mutation that the breeder capitalises and produces the morphs or Hypo's ... but cross breeding is whole different thing.... Nature provides barriers to prevent cross breeding so why should we humans break those barriers?? we don't have the authority or the right to do that....

Hypo's occur in wild NATURALLY.... like the white tigers...
Cross breeds don't occur Naturally.... so there must be something bad that is why Nature prevents it....

 

[shanu303]

I agree. But can you tell me of a single reintroduction effort that would A) Be trying to reintroduce Sulcatas and Leopards to areas they are not from. B) Not know the difference between a tortoise, and we are specifically speaking of sulcatas and leopards here, that is neither one of these species but rather one that is a cross bred animal? And C) Be using random animals created for the pet trade in reintroduction efforts.
I find it highly unlikely, almost 0.00% in fact, that one of these animals could get accidently released by a program such as you describe.
And the retirement argument? Really? I would love to see the numbers of retirees moving to Africa with their cross bred tortoise and then further extrampulate how many of these tortoises escape into the wilds to polute the gene pool. Again, I would guess that number is closer to 0 than it is to any other number, whole or in fractions.
And I understand the difference in species and breed very well. We seem to have many people that are in fact trying to create "breeds" of tortoise if you allow for me to use that word. Sunset hypos, West Coast Ghosts... There are many right here on this forum. A rose by any other name is still a rose.

you are basing your comments on the present conditions... where there are hardly 20-30 leocatas i guess...
but just as you, me or others like the Leocata... this Will create Demand for more leocatas and people will eventually breed them....
and there will be a stage when Leocata population is quite healthy and bulk and at that time there is a very good chance of them reaching the African Continent.... i am surprised that they are present in UK... UK isn't far from Africa to prevent crossing of border....

i see you are mentioning Ghost Hypos often.... but i don't understand why are you even mentioning them..... They are a result of Genetic Mutation which is Random and Part of Nature.... Naturally Occurs and is the BASIS for EVOLUTION.... but Cross breeding does not Play any positive role...
....producing hypos is not Breaking the NATURE's rule....... but cross breeding is breaking the rule..... producing hypos is not interfering with Natural Mechanism....

Ultimately it all comes down to Ethics.... we humans consider cross breeding of humans with other primate like Chimpanzee UNETHICAL
but when it comes to tortoises the human thinking changes and it becomes Ethical.....

and Can we just lower the notch.... there is a lot of heat in this thread...
i sincerely apologise if i have offended you in any of my posts.... i didn't mean to... and i am not pointing fingers at you... i know you are very experienced and a wise tortoise owner... i am just criticising the idea of cross breeding....

and ok for a moment i would agree with you that those won't reach Africa but according to our own definitions Cross breeding is unethical, then why should the definition change when it comes to tortoises???

 

[Saleama]

first of all i didn't say they'll cross on their own.... i can't understand why you even put that up...

---

but back to the topic....
it's not hard to get a transfer certificate if one was to transfer this leocata to Africa....

i never told anything about "SMUGGLED"... they aren't Radiated tortoise that one would have to smuggle to cross borders... and Europe isn't far from Africa...


i think you are getting me wrong here.... i don't question and criticise the cross breeding just in tortoises.... i am against any kind of cross breeding.... and since this is a tortoise forum and we discussing tortoise i raised my concern only with them....
and another thing is this is not same as subspecies or true species..... they both belong to 2 DIFFERENT GENUS
Sulcata being Geochelone
Leopard being Stigmochelys
i know earlier leopard torts were place under Geochelone but there was a valid reason to shift them to their own Genus....
and yes there is something known as pure species in captivity.... the radiated torts, ploughshares, platynota.... they are pure species...



then according to your belief of cross breeding... crossing Humans with Chimpanzees is ethical isn't it?
and there is WHOLE LOT of difference between breeding for specific trait and Cross breeding... while breeding for specific trait is due to Random genetic mutation that the breeder capitalises and produces the morphs or Hypo's ... but cross breeding is whole different thing.... Nature provides barriers to prevent cross breeding so why should we humans break those barriers?? we don't have the authority or the right to do that....

Hypo's occur in wild NATURALLY.... like the white tigers...
Cross breeds don't occur Naturally.... so there must be something bad that is why Nature prevents it....

---

So which is the "chimp" tortoise and which is the "Human"? Absolutly ridiculous to try and compare the two. If there was a natural barrier beyond there location then why is it that these two species can in fact produce viable off spring? Hypos and albinos are extremely rare in the wild because they are devoid of natural protection and are often killed by their parents are while young. I did not say that purity does not exist in captivity, I correctly pointed out that in THE SPECIES SPECIFIC TO THIS TOPIC, it is becoming harder to find pure animals. Most exhibit traits for several sub species. I have leopards that have so many spot variables it is clear they are no longer pure species. The similarities I pointed to in cross breeding and breeding for traits was made in reference to the PET TRADE using these animals to create a profit. I am not stupid, I know the difference in the two.

My point is, for people to site righteous indignities and the possibility that the cross breeding of an animal in the UNITED KINGDOM as a potential for species pollution is not valid or likley. While parts of Europe are indeed close to Africa, England is not one of them. Even the countries that border Africa are THOUSANDS of miles away from the territory of these animals. I stated clearly that in MY opinion, which I guess is not as valid as yours as it might not be as politically correct, the health of the off spring should be the first concern. Are they creating an animl that is going to have horrible health issues like the Ligar? Is it going to have a miserable existance as a direct result of the cross breed? Nobody knows what will happen with these animals and as none, to my knowledge, have been found to occur naturally (if anyone can link something that says otherwise, please do) should they be put in a situation to where they produce in captivity? I simply believe that to use arguments that can be riddled with holes in seconds by amatures with little knowledge is not going to help any case for the halt of the practice.

On the other side of the coin, what if this cross breeding created a "super" tortoise resistant to disease and temperature extremes? What if the poop of this magical beast was the cure for cancer? The secret to world peace? Are we to put a stop to it because some people think it is a bad idea to "ruin" the purity of the species involved?

 

[Saleama]

you are basing your comments on the present conditions... where there are hardly 20-30 leocatas i guess...
but just as you, me or others like the Leocata... this Will create Demand for more leocatas and people will eventually breed them....
and there will be a stage when Leocata population is quite healthy and bulk and at that time there is a very good chance of them reaching the African Continent.... i am surprised that they are present in UK... UK isn't far from Africa to prevent crossing of border....

i see you are mentioning Ghost Hypos often.... but i don't understand why are you even mentioning them..... They are a result of Genetic Mutation which is Random and Part of Nature.... Naturally Occurs and is the BASIS for EVOLUTION.... but Cross breeding does not Play any positive role...
....producing hypos is not Breaking the NATURE's rule....... but cross breeding is breaking the rule..... producing hypos is not interfering with Natural Mechanism....

Ultimately it all comes down to Ethics.... we humans consider cross breeding of humans with other primate like Chimpanzee UNETHICAL
but when it comes to tortoises the human thinking changes and it becomes Ethical.....

and Can we just lower the notch.... there is a lot of heat in this thread... View attachment 78513
i sincerely apologise if i have offended you in any of my posts.... i didn't mean to... and i am not pointing fingers at you... i know you are very experienced and a wise tortoise owner... i am just criticising the idea of cross breeding....

and ok for a moment i would agree with you that those won't reach Africa but according to our own definitions Cross breeding is unethical, then why should the definition change when it comes to tortoises???

You have not offended me. I am bored at work and like to debate. To answer your question. My mention of the hypos and the ghosts was in reference to a statement about ethics in creating pretty animals just so people could own them. I was trying to convey that there is no difference in this practice than cross breeding in that vein. I do not disagree with the practice of breeding for specific traits unless of course, the tortoises were to be released in the wild minus the traits that they use for protection.
We all agree that cross breeding might not be such a good idea. i am trying to convey the importance of NOT using weak, unlikely arguments to defend that stand. Does that make sense? There are far better defenses to this stand than "It will pollute the gene pool of wild animals" that are literally THOUSANDS of miles away. We don't even know if these tortoises are fertile. If there have been reports or cases of them successfully breeding I and nobody I know on this forum at least, has heard of it.

 

[FLINTUS]

I agree. But can you tell me of a single reintroduction effort that would A) Be trying to reintroduce Sulcatas and Leopards to areas they are not from. B) Not know the difference between a tortoise, and we are specifically speaking of sulcatas and leopards here, that is neither one of these species but rather one that is a cross bred animal? And C) Be using random animals created for the pet trade in reintroduction efforts.
I find it highly unlikely, almost 0.00% in fact, that one of these animals could get accidently released by a program such as you describe.
And the retirement argument? Really? I would love to see the numbers of retirees moving to Africa with their cross bred tortoise and then further extrampulate how many of these tortoises escape into the wilds to polute the gene pool. Again, I would guess that number is closer to 0 than it is to any other number, whole or in fractions.
And I understand the difference in species and breed very well. We seem to have many people that are in fact trying to create "breeds" of tortoise if you allow for me to use that word. Sunset hypos, West Coast Ghosts... There are many right here on this forum. A rose by any other name is still a rose.

That wasn't what you asked though . You just wanted the idea of a reintroduction programme. Of course there are no hybrids of Leocatas being involved in reintroduction. BUT, in the Galapagoses, due to the genetic mess which has gone on there along with humans' influence, subspecies crosses are being reintroduced to some of the islands. Was this animal created for the pet trade? How many leocatas end up in the pet trade? Most crosses at the moment are kept in the 'hobbyist circle' as I said earlier.
The retirement/movement argument is small, but places like S.Africa are now quite popular for Brits to move to-OK, not to the extent of Australia or places like that, but even so. The percentage-even if it's small- of people taking their tortoise(s) will be at least the same as people moving to the US, Canada, Europe, Australia etc., but probably more due to the climate. And yes, the percentage of these tortoises that are not 'pure' will be small, but there will still be some. Regarding the wild idea, that doesn't need to happen. Often the wild tortoise will wander into the garden in these kinds of places. But they are the same species though for hypos and the like. Just variations. Still the same basic species genetics. Just carrying the leucistic trait or whatever it is. You could easily get rid of that trait from the lines-or effectively make it so obscure that only 1 out of 100 offspring will carry it. You couldn't easily do that with the Sulcata DNA in a Leocata.

 

[NeuroNaka]

It's very interesting to see how dominant the sulcata genes are over the leopards.

For all of those opposed to cross-breeding, what are you opinions on cross-bred dogs?

 

[FLINTUS]

You have not offended me. I am bored at work and like to debate. To answer your question. My mention of the hypos and the ghosts was in reference to a statement about ethics in creating pretty animals just so people could own them. I was trying to convey that there is no difference in this practice than cross breeding in that vein. I do not disagree with the practice of breeding for specific traits unless of course, the tortoises were to be released in the wild minus the traits that they use for protection.
We all agree that cross breeding might not be such a good idea. i am trying to convey the importance of NOT using weak, unlikely arguments to defend that stand. Does that make sense? There are far better defenses to this stand than "It will pollute the gene pool of wild animals" that are literally THOUSANDS of miles away. We don't even know if these tortoises are fertile. If there have been reports or cases of them successfully breeding I and nobody I know on this forum at least, has heard of it.

Did anyone actually say that before you mentioned it? Ignoring the mixing species problem, you have main the problem that it could lead to a captive gene pool that has been polluted, and if you only end up with a few 'pure' animals left, what are you meant to do when the wild population goes nearly extinct?

 

[ShellyTurtlesCats]

I want one.

 

[FLINTUS]

It's very interesting to see how dominant the sulcata genes are over the leopards.

For all of those opposed to cross-breeding, what are you opinions on cross-bred dogs?

Different thing completely. Not even going to entertain that thought. Been there, done that. Not going back.
I am not opposed to cross-breeding in the right hands. Baoh on this forum is an example of someone like that. What I am opposed to is if the cross-breeds aren't kept on their own-mixed with pure Sulcatas in shops etc., they get into the general public who don't know the species, then they come on to a forum like here for an ID, and since it carries predominantly Sulcata looks, it is ID'd as such. The member then breeds it with a pure Sulcata without knowing, and the cycle continues. If everyone was responsible, it would be fine. But sadly, the world is not like that.

 

[Saleama]

That wasn't what you asked though . You just wanted the idea of a reintroduction programme. Of course there are no hybrids of Leocatas being involved in reintroduction. BUT, in the Galapagoses, due to the genetic mess which has gone on there along with humans' influence, subspecies crosses are being reintroduced to some of the islands. Was this animal created for the pet trade? How many leocatas end up in the pet trade? Most crosses at the moment are kept in the 'hobbyist circle' as I said earlier.
The retirement/movement argument is small, but places like S.Africa are now quite popular for Brits to move to-OK, not to the extent of Australia or places like that, but even so. The percentage-even if it's small- of people taking their tortoise(s) will be at least the same as people moving to the US, Canada, Europe, Australia etc., but probably more due to the climate. And yes, the percentage of these tortoises that are not 'pure' will be small, but there will still be some. Regarding the wild idea, that doesn't need to happen. Often the wild tortoise will wander into the garden in these kinds of places. But they are the same species though for hypos and the like. Just variations. Still the same basic species genetics. Just carrying the leucistic trait or whatever it is. You could easily get rid of that trait from the lines-or effectively make it so obscure that only 1 out of 100 offspring will carry it. You couldn't easily do that with the Sulcata DNA in a Leocata.

The Galapagose, as I understand it, is being seeded (if, again you allow me to use loose words, lol) by a select few adults that were captured back in the 70's. They got the purest adults they could find for the specific islands they inhabit in order to reintroduce the babies there, thus weeding out the genes from the other subs... Not ideal but it is the best that can be done. They also search long and hard, requesting DNA from private collectors as well as zoos. This sometimes works great but often is unsuccessful (poor Lonely George never dod get a good special match and ended the reign of the Pinto sub).

My point, again, is not that I agree with cross breeding these guys, I do not, but that sometimes when we use weak arguments to further a cause we do more harm to that cause than the opposition. A good example is the BoL using the dessert tortoise to try to make a land grab in Nevada. Weak, fake argument eventually hurt that cause. Since it was all a lie I am glad it did fail, but I think I have made my point.

It would be much easier to defend against this practice if the resulting animal was an abomination or if the negatives (if any) were immediatly apparent. Unfortunatly, the resulting animal is stunning. There is no way that if these where to hit the main stream they would not be an instant success and go for much more than either of their parent species. Try using the species pollution argument on an ignorant pet seeker that only sees the beautiful tortoise in front of them. Will not work 99% of the time is my guess.

 

[Saleama]

Did anyone actually say that before you mentioned it? Ignoring the mixing species problem, you have main the problem that it could lead to a captive gene pool that has been polluted, and if you only end up with a few 'pure' animals left, what are you meant to do when the wild population goes nearly extinct?

The reintroduction of species DOES not rely on casual pet trade for it's safety stock. It relys on reintroduction programs and select private breeders and zoos. If the survival of certain tortoise species comes down to the animals sold at PetSmart, flee markets and trade shows then it is already too late. And yes, someone said that before I mentioned it. It is why I mentioned it.

One more time. I am not ignoring cross breeding as an issue as you suggest. I am trying to say that weak arguments will hurt a cause more than that cause's opposition. That is all I am trying to say here. I don't understand why that point is not being seen despite me having stated it in clear precise wording several times now. If you disagree, fine, but disagree with a strong stance, not a weak one that can't hold water.

 

[shanu303]

@Saleama how do you suggest we fight this problem ?

 

[shanu303]

It's very interesting to see how dominant the sulcata genes are over the leopards.

For all of those opposed to cross-breeding, what are you opinions on cross-bred dogs?

you are confusing CROSS BREEDING to CROSSBRED .... two different things as Flintus already mentioned...
the Dogs are crossbred but those belong to the same Genus and Species....
Tortoises don't have breeds.... so Crossbreeding in this case is not ideal at all ...
why it is not ideal?? well here are some arguments which i think might be the possible reason:
1)offspring is Sterile
2)offspring might be less immune
3)reduced lifespan
4)internal defects

i know cross breeds are "good-looking ", Unique.... etc
but it just might not be good for that individual in the long run....

 

[Saleama]

@Saleama how do you suggest we fight this problem ?

With education. Unfortunatly (or rather fortunatly for the tortoises at least) tortoises are long lived and slow to show signs of any potential issues. It may very well be that this is not a problem for any of the reasons stated or it may turn out to be a huge issue for all of them (obviously not my sarcastic super tortoise thought, lol) The reality is that while we can all make individual stances, the results might not make any difference. In life, we are not guaranteed success in all of out endevours. The Leocatas are very rare. I wouldn't be surprised if the few pictures we have seen on this site were of the same tortoise(s). I have said it before, the resulting tortoise is one fantastic looking animal! There can be no doubt that if they were easy to breed then they would be all over the place. So since they are not all over the place I can make one or two assumptions. They are not easy to produce and if someone is producing them they are keeping it on the down low from the larger tortoise communities BECAUSE of the stigma placed on it. Either way, I think this problem settles itself really.

 

[Saleama]

you are confusing CROSS BREEDING to CROSSBRED .... two different things as Flintus already mentioned...
the Dogs are crossbred but those belong to the same Genus and Species....
Tortoises don't have breeds.... so Crossbreeding in this case is not ideal at all ...
why it is not ideal?? well here are some arguments which i think might be the possible reason:
1)offspring is Sterile
2)offspring might be less immune
3)reduced lifespan
4)internal defects

i know cross breeds are "good-looking ", Unique.... etc
but it just might not be good for that individual in the long run....

NOW This is an arguement I can support 100%!!! Is what I have been trying to say all along.

 

[Yourlocalpoet]

Sulley, who did you get this of? Do you know who the breeder was? I am not aware of anyone in the UK actively breeding hybrids on purpose. In Europe yes, but not in the UK.

I know we're not mainland, but we're still part of Europe.

 

[FLINTUS]

I know we're not mainland, but we're still part of Europe.

Mainland Europe lol. Although not if UKIP get their way. *sigh*

The reintroduction of species DOES not rely on casual pet trade for it's safety stock. It relys on reintroduction programs and select private breeders and zoos. If the survival of certain tortoise species comes down to the animals sold at PetSmart, flee markets and trade shows then it is already too late. And yes, someone said that before I mentioned it. It is why I mentioned it.

One more time. I am not ignoring cross breeding as an issue as you suggest. I am trying to say that weak arguments will hurt a cause more than that cause's opposition. That is all I am trying to say here. I don't understand why that point is not being seen despite me having stated it in clear precise wording several times now. If you disagree, fine, but disagree with a strong stance, not a weak one that can't hold water.

I am not talking about the pet trade. Please understand that. I am talking about captive populations. There is a difference.
And yes, when species fail in the wild-Sulcatas are actually pretty threatened in the wild ATM- there is a time when repopulation efforts will have to be made.
Please explain how my argument is weak and how it will hurt my cause*. Prove that hybrids will at no point make the gene pool-or a section of it- 'impure'. Back up your claim that you can't find a single 'pure' tortoise in captivity.
I will point out that I have no real agenda here, I am not pro-hybrids nor fully anti-hybrids, but I would like you to show the facts that will guarantee that these guys will not get into the pet trade.

 

[N2TORTS]

Ok.....not taking sides nor choose to debate..... just some information-non biased scientific research.

"Turtles and tortoises share a common ancestor, but began evolving separately a long time ago. The common ancestor of box and painted turtles lived more recently, so the box turtle has more in common with the painted turtle than it does with the tortoise. How similar two organisms are can help people figure out how closely they are related.
What then, is the motivation for the many, apparently unsubstantiated assertions that animal hybrids and the evolution of animals are somehow fundamentally different from those of plants? Is it perhaps the self-flattering notion that animals are somehow special, higher, nobler? In particular, is such reasoning simply a manifestation of the ancient tendency to place Homo sapiens above other, supposedly baser types of organisms? This bias is indeed long-standing. When zoology was emerging as a science in the eighteenth century, its practitioners arranged their taxonomies in accordance with an age-old ordering principle handed down from medieval times, the scala naturae (literally, "the ladder of nature"). Also known as "The Great Chain of Being," this system had religious roots and pictured beings rising in a linear order of perfection, starting with inanimate minerals and rising through fossils (which were considered something between the mineral and the living), to plants, animals, humans, celestial beings, and, ultimately, God.
Similarities are often easy to see when one looks at two organisms that evolved from a common ancestor, and until recently, looking at physical features and behavior was the only way to determine how closely related two organisms are. However, now scientists can also analyze DNA to discover how closely organisms are related. Every living creature has DNA, which has a lot of inherited information about how the body builds itself. Scientists can compare the DNA of two organisms; the more similar the DNA, the more closely related the organisms. This method can also help when looks are deceptive. One example of looks being deceptive is: The bat and the crow both have wings, and the squirrel does not. From this, one may think that bats and crows are more closely related than bats and squirrels, while the opposite is indeed the case.
DNA testing is a tool that Darwin never had, but it has helped scientists after him to learn and discover a lot about evolution.
Similarities of Embryos : The embryos of a hippo, frog, and rabbit all look very similar in their early stages of development. Embryos of many different kinds of animals: mammals, birds, reptiles, fish, etc. look very similar and it is often difficult to tell them apart. Many traits of one type of animal appear in the embryo of another type of animal. For example, fish embryos and human embryos both have gill slits. In fish they develop into gills, but in humans they disappear before birth. This shows that the animals are similar and that they develop similarly, implying that they are related, have common ancestors and that they started out the same, gradually evolving different traits, but that the basic plan for a creature's beginning remains the same.
Mating between two different species (naturally producing hybrids) that have forms highly disparate in size are not limited to birds. Male Steller sea-lions (Eumetopias jubatus) are about 10 times as large as female California sea-lions (Zalophus californianus). Yet natural hybrids occur. Most Z. californianus females participating in such matings die of suffocation or of wounds sustained during copulation. The same Eumetopias male killed 12 Zalophus females by lying on them until they died. In such cases, the urge to mate apparently overcomes any tendency that an animal may have to restrict its attention to mates presenting normal cues.
Truth wise , in a natural setting, when an animal is on the edge of, or outside, its normal range, it may not meet a mate of its own kind. If some other type of animal is present, hybridization may result. In the case of those types of animals that consciously choose a mate, imprinting and a scarcity of appropriate mates are probably the two main factors giving rise to hybrid populations.
In light of such evidence, from both captivity and the wild — in particular, in light of the large number of natural animal populations documented as having had a hybrid origin — there is certainly no reason to believe animals always refuse to mate with individuals not of their own kind.
But the tendency lingers, even today, to think of a mammal as somehow more advanced than a bird, or of a reptile as more complex than a fish, and certainly, of an animal as more advanced than a plant. This predisposition to place animals and, in particular, human beings "above" other organisms seems still to foster a mindset that discounts the extensive evidence demonstrating the significance of stabilization processes in animal evolution, since most such processes directly depend on the occurrence of hybridization."
Above writings taken from articles listed below.
http://necsi.edu/projects/evolution/evidence/living/evidence_living.html
http://www.macroevolution.net/scala-naturae-theory.html#.U2P2rzbn8eg
www.tc.umn.edu/~gambl007/publications/LeClere_etal_2012...
http://marinesciencetoday.com/2014/01/13/first-known-naturally-occurring-marine-mammal-hybrid/
http://www.macroevolution.net/animal-hybrids.html#.U2P7jTbn8eg