What kind of leopard?

[Jtort]

Ethiopian, South African, pardalis pardalis, pardalis babcocki, hybrids...

So I just read that pardalis pardalis are South Africans and pardalis babcocki are Ethiopian, but I still don't know what type of leopard I have.

I've read that pardalis pardalis have 2 spots down the vertical scutes? Mine has 2 in some, 1 in another and what appears like none in another. I'm guessing its a hybrid?

Here are some pictures:

 

[Tom]

The simple answer is that if you didn't specifically pay for a true Gpp, then its a hybrid of the two commonly available types that we have here in the US.

The complex answer is at at last count there are 11 different "clades" of leopards throughout their enormous range. Over here we have two distinctly different types, BUT historically, leopards have been imported from many parts of the range. Over the years, most people have just put leopards with leopards, so there has been a lot of mixing of leopards from really all over their range.

Your baby show some traits of the South Africans that we know are true South Africans. In the past unscrupulous sellers have knowingly sold mixed ones as pure ones too. For your purposes, you can just call it a leopard tortoise. It will likely get a little bigger than a typical babcocki, and likely like to eat more grass than a typical leopard too.

 

[Levi the Leopard]

Tom is right. Ours (since they have the same parents-ish) are just Babcocki mutts.

 

[Jtort]

Thanks! Tom's thread about stopping the grocery store foods got me wondering what kind I have, since he doesn't seem to like grass all that well. I've been giving it to him with Mazuri though which he loves

 

[wellington]

So, mine is a mutt too? How dare you

 

[BeeBee*BeeLeaves]

Love the leopards ... the pure and the muttly ... they are ALL awesome! : )

 

[Neal]

Yours would be the common type of leopard, not the South African locality.

I will agree with Tom about all the dilution that has occurred with leopards. And yes, it can get very complex. I wouldn't worry about the tortoise eating grass just yet. As it gets older, it will eat it more readily.

 

[Levi the Leopard]

Yay for the leopard mutts!

Mine will graze on the grass when outside but prefer the other growing weeds, plants.
When they are large enough for the entire yard access, I'm assuming grazing the grass will be their main diet.

When I cut the grass down in their pens I will mix the clippings with Mazuri and feed it inside.

Sent from my VS840 4G using TortForum mobile app

 

[Neal]

When they are large enough for the entire yard access, I'm assuming grazing the grass will be their main diet.

They're opportunistic feeders, so they'll eat whatever is available to them. While the common type might prefer other types of foods to grass, they will eat large amounts of grass if other foods are not as available. Mine don't start grazing routinely until about 6 - 8 inches.

If I had enough succulents or weeds to handle the "bio-load" of all my leopards, then I would expect to see them eating those more often then seeing them eat the grass.

 

[Baoh]

Yep. With Neal on that.

My baby Gpps eat little grass if at all. My 4-6+" juveniles eat some, but prefer other broadleaf weeds and succulents (as do my sulcatas) if those are available to choose from. My larger adult babcocki females eat whatever. Grasses, weeds, flowers. Whatever they find, much like my sulcatas.

My adult babcocki females and male are not shy at all. My one Gpp is (extremely) ultra-bold and the rest of my Gpp have all been either meek or otherwise unremarkable in terms of interactive "personality".

On a tangent, my few stars are similarly active and outgoing. Not nearly the timid wimps so many seem to make them out to be.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

http://www.iucn-tftsg.org/wp-content/uploads/file/Articles/Fritz_etal_2010a.pdf

The not so simple answer is there are no subspecies of leopard, but what scientists call a cline <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cline_(biology)>

There are variants in what the tortoises look like, say albinos for an extreme example, but an albino is not a different species, it is a varient with the variation being color/pigment.

Leopards have size/shape and color variation, which is a very normal state of things for a species with such a huge range.

So to use the arcane subspecies names it would be most proper to say it is S.p.p varient type versus a S.p.b. variant type. But then we are pretty much treating them like dogs in a show, if the hair color, feathers, or nose do not conform to the 'type' they are not that breed. All a construct.

I would suggest that instead of retorting with claims of scientific Mumbo Jumbo (for those involved with this longer term POV discussed here on TFO before), one of you who does not agree with this might define with strict numerical and aesthetic protocols what makes any particular leopard tortoise conform to one varient or another. <http://www.akc.org/breeds/basset_hound/breed_standard.cfm> such as this for basset hounds.

Maybe you could create the American Tortoise Breed Council, set standards etc. Cause until you do that, what you are using as criteria is Mumbo Jumbo <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumbo_jumbo_(phrase)>.

Will

Ethiopian, South African, pardalis pardalis, pardalis babcocki, hybrids...

So I just read that pardalis pardalis are South Africans and pardalis babcocki are Ethiopian, but I still don't know what type of leopard I have.

I've read that pardalis pardalis have 2 spots down the vertical scutes? Mine has 2 in some, 1 in another and what appears like none in another. I'm guessing its a hybrid?

Here are some pictures:

 

[Neal]

I appreciate you knowledge and depth Will. I consider myself an intelligent person, except when it comes to scientific matters, but I have no idea what you are trying to say...maybe I'm just "off" today.

---

OK, I stood on my head for a little bit and I think I have a bit an idea. You think it's more appropriate to refer to them as "variants" rather than "types"? I've always struggled with how to properly refer to leopards, being familiar with the study you linked and the results from. But, there are consistent physical differences between the South African varieties and "the rest" that I think are important to identification and should be preserved if possible. These "variations" are generally well known and easy to identify, so I don't think I would agree that it's complete mumbo jumbo...unless I've totally misunderstood what your point.

 

[tortadise]

But will. How would we determine just that? The founding stock would need to be properly identified and placed in the breeders association as ex Kenyan,Ethiopian, Uganda, or Swaziliand . If there could be such a way to find out the clades and specify exactly which is which. I would gladley pay for that.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

I see better what I have failed to best communicate. A basset hound is a wolf. But how can you tell which wolf varient it is? There are specific color and morphological parameters that a basset wolf conforms to, that a Saint Bernard wolf does not conform to, and visa versa.

That study suggests that at the genetic level of description, there are not two subspecies, based on genetics or the historical expansion/contraction and/or isolation over time between different areas populated by leopard tortoises.

Political boundries are useful in one way, but frankly irrelevant, as they do not define sub populations. Rivers and mountain ranges are those things that subdivide the whole of the range of leopards.

Maybe a descrition of a water shed would make sense, or something like, "northern rift valley". If you want to base these differences on a as found in nature morphology.

But it seems to me as long as you are going to construct histories of animals based on the "stories" past from one person to another, you might as well go all the way like ball python breeders do.

This seems to be where radiated breeders dare go.

Lets look at another species, that has five distinct populations, but none that warrent subspecies designation. Radiateds have been bred in captivity for about 40 years now, maybe up to an F4 or even F5 cohort. Some have been carefully managed in studbooks, many have not.

There is the color varient with radiateds that the shell is all black, they are called "black pearls". Might those that have black shells and black skin be more a black pearl than one that has yellow skin and a black shell? It would depend on some standard written down and agreed upon.

But who will decide if black skin and shell is the only true black Pearl, the "American Association of Tortoise Breeds". Just like the AKC, a body of people would have to self organize, and set standards - to go full tilt crazy.

Otherwise, without some clear metrics or shape or form standards, hard records of capture origen, its pretty pure tortoise feces.

What are these clear, hard and fast observable or measurable differences alleged to those two subspecies? Say you had to be able to tell with no political boundry info.

I have spoken with some of the leading south african tortoise biologist directly, as well as "heard" them via others. They suggest that the leopards in the cape region are planted by historical Europeans. Cave deposits in the cape from pre European settlement have no leopard bones, but do have bones of the other species there.

So break away from the idea that all but a very few leopards have good source data, and describe the attributes that make one type of leopard so distinct from another.

Maybe call one "Babcocki" with no specific association to scientific systematics.

It's a Babcocki if blah blah blah. Then any leopard that has that blah blah blah is by definition a Babcocki. No pretending its geographic origen maters.

You all in my opinion are walking with one foot each on two differnt paths. One path is an interest in genetic wildlife conservation biology, while the other is the coolest pet around.

Ever heard of a custom concourse automobile? Not a possible thing.

The two paths with tortoise breeding are not as clearly obvious as the oxymoron of a custom concourse car. So to some extent the two tortoise interests can overlap. However, if you are going to say you are going the genetic wildlife conservation route, the body of people who organise the terms and parameters are the scientists who do the genetic and field work.

Thats why I would suggest a new body, the AATB, or some such.

Any more clear?

Will

 

[Neal]

It is slightly more clear Will, and thank you for taking the time to elaborate.

So break away from the idea that all but a very few leopards have good source data, and describe the attributes that make one type of leopard so distinct from another.

I, for one, think we do this frequently when threads like this come up. We have stated in discussions past that we call them South African leopards, or mutts, or what have you because that is what is commonly accepted. Trying to keep the conversation simple, with the caveat that it is actually more complex than what we are actually saying as is explicitly exemplified in Tom's post as well as my own.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems that you are suggesting that there are no physical differences between what we typically refer to as S.p.p and S.p.b.? Whether or not that qualifies them as two different subspecies is irrelevant, in my opinion. The point is that most of us have observed that they are physically different in a lot of ways. Shell shape, shell pattern, skin pattern, head structure, and size being the greatest differences. Some may argue that there are even behavioral differences.

I do agree with your path analogy. I would like to offer some insight as someone with a foot in both paths and as primarily a hobbyist (or the "coolest tortoise path guy"). I am trying to make sense of and work with what I have available. What I have available is two (insert the best word "types" "variants", etc...). With one variant, we have some sort of reliable information about its origins. The other, we really have no clue. I suppose the reliability of the first is debatable, but for me the actual origins are irrelevant and what I care about is that they are physically different from each other. I think it would be very difficult to try and extend a more scientific knowledge beyond that at this point. For me, it's important to at least understand that in simple terms "they are different" in order to preserve what is different about them. For the foreseeable future, this is the absolute best we can come up with (as far as my knowledge extends). To continue with the path analogy, it's sort of a false bridge between the two paths, but for the time, my opinion is that it is sufficient for us who find it difficult to walk on the more scientific path.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Neal said: "The point is that most of us have observed that they are physically different in a lot of ways. Shell shape, shell pattern, skin pattern, head structure, and size being the greatest differences."

So write these differences out, here on TFO, and I would say that is a solid start to walking the AKC analogy path 'coolest tortoises'. I don't see a solid reason as to why one path should be more informed or informative than the other. So, if you would please tell me here on TFO those hard lines for which either or both of these variant characteristics must have to qualify as one or the other, and I would guess by default those individuals that do not conform to one or the other should be considered the mutts.

What shell shape do the 'most of us (you)' agree on is one or the other. What size, what color, what behavior. Please be explicit, I want to able to use your key or standards. I'll call them the "Neal" leopard tortoise standards from here on out. Seriously.

Me, on the radiated idea of a black pearl, would call an all black tortoise shell and skin a "true" black pearl, while those with yellow skin would be "bee" black pearls. Maybe the all yellow shell and black skin would be a reverse bee black pearl, while all yellow shell and skin could be called a Golden.

Will

 

[Neal]

...I have Will. In fact, I made a whole thread about it. Even has pictures.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-27409.html

It's a bit of an older thread, so maybe it was before your time. Granted, it doesn't have any "prestige" or extended data that would interest the scientific community, but I think it's a solid response to your request. If you disagree with any of the points made on that thread, I would definitely like to hear about it.

I suppose an update would be useful as these tortoises are getting more mature.

 

[Levi the Leopard]

Please update that thread! ..ask a mod to unlock it so it is all in one spot

Sent from my TFOapp

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Thanks for bringing that thread back to the top Neal.

I see a very clear difference, that side view is dramatic, with hatchlings.

Size does not stand up, as we have seen that 80 some pounder from Kruger (car jack) is big, but hardly the biggest.

Discussion in that very thread by you suggest personality is more individual.

Does any one know of a single clutch with hatchlings looking like an example of both?

The hatchling id method would tend to suggest that you don't know what you have until you have hatchlings. Then by default you know, but not really, as either the male or female could have a dominant allele for the morph type of one or the other variant.

Grown hatchlings with one morph type or the other, bred together is a selection process for one varient or the other. All this is cool. But why tie this to poor taxonomy?

I think this is all a solid foundation for a clear variety of leopard. More selective breeding will not doubt create stronger signaling for whatever traits you want.

Will

---

Maybe car jack was from Addo, I think that makes a better argument, but just don't recall which park it lived in.

 

[Sh3wulf]

For what it's worth, I think your "mutt" is really pretty
This topic got way over my analytic capacity at midnight. I will probably try another read of this one tomorrow since I do find the topic fascinating. Plus I love when the "brains" on here get debating!


Two kids, One husband, One Hines57, One Leopard Tortoise, and a room at the sanitarium lol