The End Of Pyramiding II-The Leopards

[Badgemash]

This thread is a terrible thing for me to look at, I'm getting so tempted to get more babies!

Seriously though, after reading this thread and browsing the original Sulcata version I've had an idea about the humidity that I'd like to get everyone's feedback on. Octavia and Mr.T are currently indoor torts so I've been contemplating how to keep them humid during the day while we're away. I've seen a device online made by Zoomed that has a humidity sensor used to activate a reptile fogger to maintain a constant humidity level set by the user (it can also be used to control a heat lamp at the same time). We already have them on an MVB lamp during the day, but I'm thinking about hooking up a fogger to run 24 hours as needed (controlled by the device) and maybe a night time heat bulb (also remote controlled by the sensor) to prevent too much evaporative cooling at night from the fogger.

Does this sound like a good idea? Any issues or drawbacks people can foresee? We have refrigerated air at the moment, which is great for the insane heat, but a bit drying for the babies.

Cheers,
-Devon

 

[Tom]

Sounds great in theory. I'd love to hear how it actually works out for you. A large part of my reason for doing these threads is to encourage other people to experiment too. We ALL learn when somebody tries something new.

BTW, I still have around a dozen very adorable, very well started, pardalis pardalis babies for sale. Volume discounts. Cheap overnight shipping.

 

[Tom]

Some fun pics:

I call these the "Littles". They had just come up the day of, or the day before I came to pick them up. They are all around 32-34 grams. I'll keep these longer, unless somebody really wants one.

These are what's left of the original twelve. I've had them around a month now. I'll be keeping all of these. They are all 52-56 grams now.

Here are two photos for comparison. Dry... and wet. This is 11 of the remaining 12 still for sale.

Here's a c/u of one of the ones still for sale. He's number 12 that wasn't in the photo with the previous 11.

They are doing very well. They eat great. They poop in their daily soaks. They bask. They walk around and explore. They are awesome!!!

I didn't think I could love another species as much as sulcatas, but these are almost the same. Well they are the same, personality wise, but with out all the drawbacks of sulcatas. They don't get huge. They don't dig or destroy things. On the plus side they are just as hardy and even more cold tolerant for outdoor living. They also live in mixed groups much easier than sulcatas. I actually think these are a great starter tortoise, due to their hardiness, personality, ease of set-up and feeding, and margin of error tolerance.

I guess you could say, I like them, huh? I'll be keeping around a dozen total, plus several of them are with friends, close by. My friend, the breeder, told me he's getting fertile eggs out of them after only 6 years. I was figuring on having to wait at least 10. Lucky me.

 

[shane1111]

lol now i want one. they are so cute! how well would they do in new england?
torts are addicting. do they have tort rehab?

 

[Badgemash]

Gah! Too tempting! Wouldn't be fair to the ones we have though to add more babies (even if they are super cute). We went ahead and ordered all of the fogging equipment, I'll keep you updated on the set up and results.

-Devon

 

[terryo]

No the middle one looks like a pin up photo, from the 50's

David...you are right. I was thinking the same thing.

Tom, I am very certain that some day your work and thoughts will be documented somewhere, besides just these threads.

 

[Tom]

lol now i want one. they are so cute! how well would they do in new england?
torts are addicting. do they have tort rehab?

I think they'd do fine. When I saw them in the wild, they were in a place that was very similar to San Francisco in climate and weather. That's one of the neat things about this subspecies. They are very cold and damp tolerant. You'd have to bring them in or build an insulated and heated tort shed for the frozen parts of winter, but other than that, they'd do as well as or better than most species. Some people think they hibernate. I won't be trying that, but I believe it.

 

[Yourlocalpoet]

I quit leopards out of pyramiding frustration long before that. It should be pretty easy to look at any other captive raised leos and compare them to mine. Even the relatively smooth captives are pretty bumpy. They look very different than the wild caughts.

I've never seen a completely smooth leopard but aside from being aesthetically pleasing what's the real significance? Tortoises can be healthy and still be pyramided right? I appreciate severe pyramiding is too often a herald to bad health but considering that you obviously take exceptional care to provide your tortoises everything they need to be healthy, is your motivation, (aside from proving 'the theory of humidity') just on a cosmetic level?

To recap: I feel a sense of utter failure and shame every time I see a pyramided tort, especially my own. I feel a tremendous responsibility to do right by these animals and part of that is figuring out what they need. If Danny is right and pyramiding is actually CAUSED by chronic dehydration and the resulting organ damage in hatchlings, then we have been torturing these poor animals for decades. It must stop. My current babies aren't just smooth, they are the most robust, healthy looking torts, I have ever raised. They are growing very fast and evenly, they feel heavier than rocks and they just look perfect. I have to believe that the rapid growth and great health is due to all those well hydrated, healthy internal organs. I am finally, after all these years, figuring out how to do it "right".

Of course, I don't doubt your theory for a minute, I've seen the evidence in the form of your photos of your sulcata babies, and I now understand where you're coming from. If it is so that they are actually healthier due to the hydration I'd consider that itself to be more of a triumph than just a smooth shell, (even though they do look very pretty!)
I guess the only way you will find out whether the theory is accurate is in a fair few years when the sulcatas and leopards are grown up, then you would be able to assess the after effects.
Also, is there something significant about leopards generally then that make them more prone to pyramiding, which if Danny is correct more prone to dehydration? I'm sure every tortoise lover has noticed that smooth sulcatas do exist and there are smooth shells in most of every other species too, but scarcely ever smooth leopards.

By the way, the baby leopards look absolutely stunning.

 

[Tom]

Shell, you are right on all counts. Admittedly, the cosmetic aspect IS important to me. But its important because it tells me that I have done something "right". It signifies the absence of failure. Me and everyone else can see, at a distance, that whatever is being done is working.

The health benefits are something that I did not anticipate at all. Its like the little babies are on full throttle, because their insides are so healthy. I have raised a lot of tortoise hatchlings over the last 24 years. A LOT. I have NEVER seen such health in baby tortoises. Those who have seen them in person can attest. The pics look nice here on the forum, but when you hold one in your hand and see the eyes and feel the weight and strength, it is truly amazing. I've had experienced keepers tell me that their healthy, normal yearlings aren't that big.

You make a good point in that years down the road, we will have a much better idea about the long term effects of what we are doing now. I have my theories, but time will turn those into proven, or disproven facts.

I don't know what it is about Leopards, but they do seem to be the worst species out there for being prone to pyramiding. That's one reason that I'm so thrilled that they aren't showing any signs of respiratory problems or shell rot problems with my "all wet all the time regime". One downside is that some of these leos were above ground and housed dry for a couple of weeks before I was able to pick them up. Because they just come up out of the ground and start walking around the pen with the adults, we don't have exact hatch dates. You can tell by size and the umbilical scar roughly how long they've been out of the egg, so I've got some that were in the wet routine after a couple of days and others that were dry for a couple of weeks. It will be interesting to see how much of a difference it makes. Also, roughly two thirds of the 36 will be close by with friends and forum members, so we will really get to see how much of a role the different husbandry strategies play. Its doubtful that anyone will keep them wetter than me, so we will get some good comparisons in the next few months. I'm hoping that 6 months from now we will all be seeing our first young captive raised SMOOTH leopards. The first month is making it look very promising.

Thanks for the compliments and thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.

 

[Yourlocalpoet]

Shell, you are right on all counts. Admittedly, the cosmetic aspect IS important to me. But its important because it tells me that I have done something "right". It signifies the absence of failure. Me and everyone else can see, at a distance, that whatever is being done is working.

The health benefits are something that I did not anticipate at all. Its like the little babies are on full throttle, because their insides are so healthy. I have raised a lot of tortoise hatchlings over the last 24 years. A LOT. I have NEVER seen such health in baby tortoises. Those who have seen them in person can attest. The pics look nice here on the forum, but when you hold one in your hand and see the eyes and feel the weight and strength, it is truly amazing. I've had experienced keepers tell me that their healthy, normal yearlings aren't that big.

You make a good point in that years down the road, we will have a much better idea about the long term effects of what we are doing now. I have my theories, but time will turn those into proven, or disproven facts.

I don't know what it is about Leopards, but they do seem to be the worst species out there for being prone to pyramiding. That's one reason that I'm so thrilled that they aren't showing any signs of respiratory problems or shell rot problems with my "all wet all the time regime". One downside is that some of these leos were above ground and housed dry for a couple of weeks before I was able to pick them up. Because they just come up out of the ground and start walking around the pen with the adults, we don't have exact hatch dates. You can tell by size and the umbilical scar roughly how long they've been out of the egg, so I've got some that were in the wet routine after a couple of days and others that were dry for a couple of weeks. It will be interesting to see how much of a difference it makes. Also, roughly two thirds of the 36 will be close by with friends and forum members, so we will really get to see how much of a role the different husbandry strategies play. Its doubtful that anyone will keep them wetter than me, so we will get some good comparisons in the next few months. I'm hoping that 6 months from now we will all be seeing our first young captive raised SMOOTH leopards. The first month is making it look very promising.

Thanks for the compliments and thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.

You're welcome, it's exciting stuff, I'm excited for you. Maybe in a few years I'll get the opportunity to raise my own hatchlings from my little lady, and of course I'll be able to steal your tried and tested doctrine for healthy, smooth tortoises. Here's to the smooth leopard revolution, finally!

 

[Kristina]

Tom, I am sure you have already thought of this, but after say, a year or so of "blogging" on these threads, I think it would fantastic if you compiled all of the updates and photos, with your notes, into a single post that could be "stickied" or presented in article format, with a link to these discussion threads. That way, a comprehensive format would be available, where someone could view all the information and photos without having to wade through the discussion, BUT, by providing a link to the discussion, those so inclined would also have the opportunity to read through others thoughts and ideas that have been brought up on the threads.

 

[Badgemash]

Thought you'd enjoy this, the fogger arrived today, it's the Zoo-Med brand ReptiFogger Terrarium Humidifier. The back of the box actually states it should be used with "hatchling and juvenile tortoises to prevent pyramiding." (Looks like they were keeping tabs on your Sulcata experiment!)

We stuck the little tube over the side on the warm end and all of the fog just spreads and settles on the substrate. Octavia seems to like it too, she wandered out of the hide and sat under it for a bit, so the preliminary indications are good.

 

[Tom]

Thought you'd enjoy this, the fogger arrived today, it's the Zoo-Med brand ReptiFogger Terrarium Humidifier. The back of the box actually states it should be used with "hatchling and juvenile tortoises to prevent pyramiding." (Looks like they were keeping tabs on your Sulcata experiment!)

We stuck the little tube over the side on the warm end and all of the fog just spreads and settles on the substrate. Octavia seems to like it too, she wandered out of the hide and sat under it for a bit, so the preliminary indications are good.

Just really watch your temps. I used one of those foggers on a Mountain Horned Dragon tank, and it drops the temps quite a bit.

I've never used that method before, so I'm very curious to see how it will work out.

---

Tom, I am sure you have already thought of this, but after say, a year or so of "blogging" on these threads, I think it would fantastic if you compiled all of the updates and photos, with your notes, into a single post that could be "stickied" or presented in article format, with a link to these discussion threads. That way, a comprehensive format would be available, where someone could view all the information and photos without having to wade through the discussion, BUT, by providing a link to the discussion, those so inclined would also have the opportunity to read through others thoughts and ideas that have been brought up on the threads.

Several people have suggested I write a book on the subject sharing what I've learned and personal experiences. I'm considering this, but it would have to be way down the road, after I've done it a whole lot more and with many more species. A lot more needs to be learned before I would even attempt that.

 

[Badgemash]

It has dropped the temps about 10 degrees on the warm end (where I put the fogger) so we added a ceramic bulb controlled with a thermostat to lift them back up. It seems to be working well so far, about 80% of the fog drifts into the warm end, and about 20% into the hide which is keeping the sphagnum in there nicely moist. It's also ended up creating a nice humidity gradient in the basking area. The only bizarre consequence has been an abrupt change in behavior since the humidity was increased, they're both more active (especially Mr.T, he's all over the place) and they're both eating more, and basking more. I'll post pics soon.

 

[tczar]

i soaked my 4 year old the first two years he was inside, 3 times a week for 15-30 minutes. since then he has a bird bath in the ground which he seldom goes into but drinks out of, i never give him protein and he has no pyramiding.

 

[Tom]

It has dropped the temps about 10 degrees on the warm end (where I put the fogger) so we added a ceramic bulb controlled with a thermostat to lift them back up. It seems to be working well so far, about 80% of the fog drifts into the warm end, and about 20% into the hide which is keeping the sphagnum in there nicely moist. It's also ended up creating a nice humidity gradient in the basking area. The only bizarre consequence has been an abrupt change in behavior since the humidity was increased, they're both more active (especially Mr.T, he's all over the place) and they're both eating more, and basking more. I'll post pics soon.

So interesting that you are seeing the same "bizarre consequence" as me. I've been ranting and raving about how healthy and active my baby sulcatas and leopards are for a while now. I've been raising torts since the 80's, but only in the last few months, since I started in with all the humidity, hydration and wetness, have I seen what we are talking about. I always thought of my previous torts as healthy, but these humidity babies are on a whole 'nother level. A level, I never knew existed up until a few months ago. I think we are on the verge of a big breakthrough here. Thanks for contributing.

 

[bignasty]

Hi Tom! I'm new to the forums and was wondering if this new method of raising tortoises in a high humidity environment is applicable to juvenile leopard tortoises? I just got one yesterday and wanted to start right. I feed my tortoise grass and leave it outside to bask in the sun. It seems very shy and would close itself when I approach it, so I just leave it alone and peek once in a while to check if it's eating.

 

[Tom]

As long as you keep the overall temps around 80 all the time AND have a hot basking spot of 100-110 for 12 hours a day, I think it should be fine for any of them. When you say juvenile how old/big are we talking? It will have limited benefit the older and bigger your tortoise is, but it still won't hurt anything.

I got Daisy, my three year old sulcata, as a highly pyramided 3 month old. Over time I gradually made it wetter and wetter and more and more humid. It took nearly two years for me to be able to see a difference, but now, after three years the new growth is definitely coming in smooth. She's over three years old now and I'm still keeping her all wet all the time. Eventually I'll move her outside to join the herd of adults, but for now she still stays inside with the humidity.

You should also note that this is all brand new stuff and not too many people have done it with leopard tortoises. I have not heard of any problems from the people that ARE doing it with leopards, but I know they are not typically as hardy as a sulcata. My leopards are of the pardalis pardalis variety and I've had some of them in the "wet" routine for over 6 weeks now. So far it is working perfectly.

This care sheet was written for sulcatas, but I'm doing it exactly the same with my leopards.
http://tortoiseforum.org/Thread-How-To-Raise-Sulcata-Hatchlings-and-Babies

Hope this helps and welcome to the forum. Please ask lots of questions. None of them are dumb and we all learn when they get asked.

 

[Badgemash]

Took the babies for their first vet check this afternoon (healthy and no parasites yay!) and he had a lot to say about humidity and pyramiding. Essentially his stance is that protein has nothing to do with it, and it's all down to humidity. Protein just makes them large and pyramided instead of small and pyramided (and he has leopards and sulcatas himself). I think you're definitely on the right track with this, and looks like at least some of the medical community agrees.

 

[Tom]

WHAT!!!? A vet told you that? I'm shocked, thrilled and elated all at the same time!!! That was the best news I've heard all day. In fact that's the best news I've heard in a long time. Is your vet a TFO member? I want to know where he heard that? Finally its getting around.

Do this guy a favor and post his name, Business Name and contact info, so our other AZ members will know where to take their torts. This guy is golden. If it wasn't 8 hours away, I'd go there. Seriously though, we do have a lot of members in AZ and goot tort vets are VERY hard to come by.

BTW, I'm also very glad that yours checked out and are all good. I was just so flabbergasted that I forgot to say it earlier in my reply.