moswen said:we have to soak our torts daily to give them enough humidity to keep their shells smooth.
How does soaking a tort give it "humidity"? All it does it get them wet and give them a chance to drink.
moswen said:we have to soak our torts daily to give them enough humidity to keep their shells smooth.
you misunderstood i didn't say fife had a swamp theory,he had a humidity theory simply providing a humid hide.in regards too leopardsRedfoot NERD said:squamata said:excactly what promted people too go from fife's theory too swamp,when did a humid hide become insuficient?onarock said:Maybe they are still willing to keep their tortoises dry and only soaking 2-3 times a week, because without concrete scientific backing and the assurance that THERE ARE NO BAD SIDE AFFECTS from keeping tortoises "swampy" its not a chance their willing to take.
I understand people wanting to do whats right by their tortoises. I also understand the passion people are developing for wanting a smooth shelled tortoise. I also think that the "as a matter of fact" stance on humidity and hydration some here are promoting is a bit premature and boarderline reckless.
Richard Fife did/does not have a theory of "swamp"*.. he found with his redfoot hatchlings that higher humidity [ misting directly on carapace.. which he has never made 'public' claims to ] had a dramatic affect on the growth/appearance. He has/had no issues with his sulcata's because they are provided with 'natural' outdoor/indoor environment.
* Tom came up with the "swamp" theory because of his -% of humidity where he lives.
Unlikely there will EVER be any "scientific" research done for ANY tortoise.. in relation to pyramiding in captivity.. so you can discount that excuse onarock and others'. How could raising a tortoise in captivity to have a smooth shell ( like in the wild ) EVER have long-term ill-effects? Are you serious?
Often one or more of the "balanced" needs have to be 'enhanced' to get the needed results.. low humidity environment happens to be one of them!
[ since I type and think so slow.. I often have others reply or edit what I'm replying to before I post ]
Terry K
sara said:So many therioes. but what about a desert tortoise? they live in a very dry and warm/hot enviroments. when left alone and not taken into captivity, there shells ( least all the ones i have seen) are smooth. We had one while growing up. she lived in the back yard and ate the weeds and what ever fruit that was on the ground. sometimes she was in the sprinklers and a few times in the summer dad would put down the hose and she would drink her fill.
She never got any "special" treatment. she grew and was healthy and had a smooth shell. Are there types of torts and turts that are just more prone than others?
Redfoot NERD said:squamata said:excactly what promted people too go from fife's theory too swamp,when did a humid hide become insuficient?onarock said:Maybe they are still willing to keep their tortoises dry and only soaking 2-3 times a week, because without concrete scientific backing and the assurance that THERE ARE NO BAD SIDE AFFECTS from keeping tortoises "swampy" its not a chance their willing to take.
I understand people wanting to do whats right by their tortoises. I also understand the passion people are developing for wanting a smooth shelled tortoise. I also think that the "as a matter of fact" stance on humidity and hydration some here are promoting is a bit premature and boarderline reckless.
Richard Fife did/does not have a theory of "swamp"*.. he found with his redfoot hatchlings that higher humidity [ misting directly on carapace.. which he has never made 'public' claims to ] had a dramatic affect on the growth/appearance. He has/had no issues with his sulcata's because they are provided with 'natural' outdoor/indoor environment.
* Tom came up with the "swamp" theory because of his -% of humidity where he lives.
Unlikely there will EVER be any "scientific" research done for ANY tortoise.. in relation to pyramiding in captivity.. so you can discount that excuse onarock and others'. How could raising a tortoise in captivity to have a smooth shell ( like in the wild ) EVER have long-term ill-effects? Are you serious?
Often one or more of the "balanced" needs have to be 'enhanced' to get the needed results.. low humidity environment happens to be one of them!
[ since I type and think so slow.. I often have others reply or edit what I'm replying to before I post ]
Terry K
squamata said:I find interesting that you have 8 torts raised the same way and half show signs of pyramiding,if you publish this info it will stop all the debate.we just need too determine if what you did do caused the normals too happen or if what you did not do caused the pyramiding.
moswen said:haha, onarock, are you being serious or joking? i guess in humid hawaii you should never have a problem with a pyramided tortoise, but in less-than-humid oklahoma we have to soak our torts daily to give them enough humidity to keep their shells smooth. it isn't completely understood why just yet, but it is pretty much confirmed that smooth shells are a result of high humidity. some of the speculations involve a lack of humidity creating a dry shell that is not lubricated enough to be able to grow out and around, so it grows up instead. instead of increasing the size of the tortoise, which demands more lubrication, it has to grow somewhere, so it grows up, because that size stays relatively the same and only slightly larger with each growth ring. again though, that's not 100% cemented in scientific facts.
squamata said:excactly what promted people too go from fife's theory too swamp,when did a humid hide become insuficient?onarock said:Maybe they are still willing to keep their tortoises dry and only soaking 2-3 times a week, because without concrete scientific backing and the assurance that THERE ARE NO BAD SIDE AFFECTS from keeping tortoises "swampy" its not a chance their willing to take.
I understand people wanting to do whats right by their tortoises. I also understand the passion people are developing for wanting a smooth shelled tortoise. I also think that the "as a matter of fact" stance on humidity and hydration some here are promoting is a bit premature and boarderline reckless.
onarock said:Redfoot NERD said:squamata said:excactly what promted people too go from fife's theory too swamp,when did a humid hide become insuficient?onarock said:Maybe they are still willing to keep their tortoises dry and only soaking 2-3 times a week, because without concrete scientific backing and the assurance that THERE ARE NO BAD SIDE AFFECTS from keeping tortoises "swampy" its not a chance their willing to take.
I understand people wanting to do whats right by their tortoises. I also understand the passion people are developing for wanting a smooth shelled tortoise. I also think that the "as a matter of fact" stance on humidity and hydration some here are promoting is a bit premature and boarderline reckless.
Richard Fife did/does not have a theory of "swamp"*.. he found with his redfoot hatchlings that higher humidity [ misting directly on carapace.. which he has never made 'public' claims to ] had a dramatic affect on the growth/appearance. He has/had no issues with his sulcata's because they are provided with 'natural' outdoor/indoor environment.
* Tom came up with the "swamp" theory because of his -% of humidity where he lives.
Unlikely there will EVER be any "scientific" research done for ANY tortoise.. in relation to pyramiding in captivity.. so you can discount that excuse onarock and others'. How could raising a tortoise in captivity to have a smooth shell ( like in the wild ) EVER have long-term ill-effects? Are you serious?
Often one or more of the "balanced" needs have to be 'enhanced' to get the needed results.. low humidity environment happens to be one of them!
[ since I type and think so slow.. I often have others reply or edit what I'm replying to before I post ]
Terry K
I am serious, are you? You dont know. I dont use it as an excuse. I used it as an example, as a reason people might not keep tortoises "That Hydrated" or "That Humid". However, I did state that the promotion of the extreme conditions "Swamp" is reckless without further study.
I also stated "Nerd" that I dont dispute the results, I only responded to the original poster that there could be some reasons for them not to keep torts as Tom or the Fifes do. Believe it or not some actually test the water before they jump in.
Youve demonstrated once again Nerd that your wrong. Tom keeps his whole room at 80% plus humidity, not because he lives in a dry area (are you serious) but because he feels thats what it takes to get smooth shells. 80% humidity is 80% humidity where ever you are. I cant believe you stated that. If I were to go with that line of thinking I should keep my hatchlings at 100 or 110 percent humidity because its allready 80% or is it the other way around? LOL.
Natural/Indoor, kind of a contradiction dont you think?
squamata said:I find interesting that you have 8 torts raised the same way and half show signs of pyramiding,if you publish this info it will stop all the debate.we just need too determine if what you did do caused the normals too happen or if what you did not do caused the pyramiding.
I too find it interesting. I have some thoughts as to why the two pyramided. How about this, something I have posted in the past. Dr.Peter Liu, a platynota expert, for lack of a better term, stated that he believes roughly 10% of the wild population is pyramid, by his field estimations. That doesnt really mean anything in my group, but its worth noting.
You always tell me to document my claims. You'll need to document this one. Andy Highfield documented the conditions in several hides for several torts in his Spain trips and rarely found any that were humid (and even then only after unusually heavy rain for short periods.Redfoot NERD said:sara said:So many therioes. but what about a desert tortoise? they live in a very dry and warm/hot enviroments. when left alone and not taken into captivity, there shells ( least all the ones i have seen) are smooth. We had one while growing up. she lived in the back yard and ate the weeds and what ever fruit that was on the ground. sometimes she was in the sprinklers and a few times in the summer dad would put down the hose and she would drink her fill.
She never got any "special" treatment. she grew and was healthy and had a smooth shell. Are there types of torts and turts that are just more prone than others?
"She" had a 'humid' hide out there someplace sara!
Yvonne we do know the effect of what 'we' do the first year of their life! Good or bad...
Terry K
Mark, I think that the urine in the burrows thing is more for Sulcata then desert tortoises. I have found that Bob voids daily in his shed and it's a considerable amount. I can see where that would create humidity in a burrow. It feels sorta humid to me in his shed and it's enough to make my eyes water. He drinks daily and urinates every day making me clean it up. Now that it's frozen outside he is contained enough in his shed so I get to see what his output really is.Madkins007 said:You always tell me to document my claims. You'll need to document this one. Andy Highfield documented the conditions in several hides for several torts in his Spain trips and rarely found any that were humid (and even then only after unusually heavy rain for short periods.Redfoot NERD said:sara said:So many therioes. but what about a desert tortoise? they live in a very dry and warm/hot enviroments. when left alone and not taken into captivity, there shells ( least all the ones i have seen) are smooth. We had one while growing up. she lived in the back yard and ate the weeds and what ever fruit that was on the ground. sometimes she was in the sprinklers and a few times in the summer dad would put down the hose and she would drink her fill.
She never got any "special" treatment. she grew and was healthy and had a smooth shell. Are there types of torts and turts that are just more prone than others?
"She" had a 'humid' hide out there someplace sara!
Yvonne we do know the effect of what 'we' do the first year of their life! Good or bad...
Terry K
Reports of desert tortoise burrows report that they are sometimes more humid than the surface, but they are nowhere near 'high' humidity. The idea that their urine makes it more humid is interesting but as sandy as the burrows are, the small amount of urine they contain are unlikely to make a big difference- besides, voiding their urine puts them at risk of dehydration.
emysemys said:Hi Sara: Yes there are, however, it mostly happen during the first year of the tortoise's life. And no one really knows much of anything about that first year in wild tortoise babies.
Madkins007 said:You always tell me to document my claims. You'll need to document this one. Andy Highfield documented the conditions in several hides for several torts in his Spain trips and rarely found any that were humid (and even then only after unusually heavy rain for short periods.Redfoot NERD said:sara said:So many therioes. but what about a desert tortoise? they live in a very dry and warm/hot enviroments. when left alone and not taken into captivity, there shells ( least all the ones i have seen) are smooth. We had one while growing up. she lived in the back yard and ate the weeds and what ever fruit that was on the ground. sometimes she was in the sprinklers and a few times in the summer dad would put down the hose and she would drink her fill.
She never got any "special" treatment. she grew and was healthy and had a smooth shell. Are there types of torts and turts that are just more prone than others?
"She" had a 'humid' hide out there someplace sara!
Yvonne we do know the effect of what 'we' do the first year of their life! Good or bad...
Terry K
Reports of desert tortoise burrows report that they are sometimes more humid than the surface, but they are nowhere near 'high' humidity. The idea that their urine makes it more humid is interesting but as sandy as the burrows are, the small amount of urine they contain are unlikely to make a big difference- besides, voiding their urine puts them at risk of dehydration.