pyramided torts... still?

[Shelly]

we have to soak our torts daily to give them enough humidity to keep their shells smooth.

How does soaking a tort give it "humidity"? All it does it get them wet and give them a chance to drink.

 

[John]

Maybe they are still willing to keep their tortoises dry and only soaking 2-3 times a week, because without concrete scientific backing and the assurance that THERE ARE NO BAD SIDE AFFECTS from keeping tortoises "swampy" its not a chance their willing to take.

I understand people wanting to do whats right by their tortoises. I also understand the passion people are developing for wanting a smooth shelled tortoise. I also think that the "as a matter of fact" stance on humidity and hydration some here are promoting is a bit premature and boarderline reckless.

excactly what promted people too go from fife's theory too swamp,when did a humid hide become insuficient?

Richard Fife did/does not have a theory of "swamp"*.. he found with his redfoot hatchlings that higher humidity [ misting directly on carapace.. which he has never made 'public' claims to ] had a dramatic affect on the growth/appearance. He has/had no issues with his sulcata's because they are provided with 'natural' outdoor/indoor environment.

* Tom came up with the "swamp" theory because of his -% of humidity where he lives.

Unlikely there will EVER be any "scientific" research done for ANY tortoise.. in relation to pyramiding in captivity.. so you can discount that excuse onarock and others'. How could raising a tortoise in captivity to have a smooth shell ( like in the wild ) EVER have long-term ill-effects? Are you serious?

Often one or more of the "balanced" needs have to be 'enhanced' to get the needed results.. low humidity environment happens to be one of them!

[ since I type and think so slow.. I often have others reply or edit what I'm replying to before I post ]

Terry K

you misunderstood i didn't say fife had a swamp theory,he had a humidity theory simply providing a humid hide.in regards too leopards

 

[Yvonne G]

This is really a sore spot with an awful lot of tortoise keepers. No matter how the subject comes up in a thread, it gets quite a bit of attention from us. We never seem to get tired of it!

 

[sara]

So many therioes. but what about a desert tortoise? they live in a very dry and warm/hot enviroments. when left alone and not taken into captivity, there shells ( least all the ones i have seen) are smooth. We had one while growing up. she lived in the back yard and ate the weeds and what ever fruit that was on the ground. sometimes she was in the sprinklers and a few times in the summer dad would put down the hose and she would drink her fill.
She never got any "special" treatment. she grew and was healthy and had a smooth shell. Are there types of torts and turts that are just more prone than others?

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi Sara: Yes there are, however, it mostly happen during the first year of the tortoise's life. And no one really knows much of anything about that first year in wild tortoise babies.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

So many therioes. but what about a desert tortoise? they live in a very dry and warm/hot enviroments. when left alone and not taken into captivity, there shells ( least all the ones i have seen) are smooth. We had one while growing up. she lived in the back yard and ate the weeds and what ever fruit that was on the ground. sometimes she was in the sprinklers and a few times in the summer dad would put down the hose and she would drink her fill.
She never got any "special" treatment. she grew and was healthy and had a smooth shell. Are there types of torts and turts that are just more prone than others?

"She" had a 'humid' hide out there someplace sara!

Yvonne we do know the effect of what 'we' do the first year of their life! Good or bad...

Terry K

 

[onarock]

Maybe they are still willing to keep their tortoises dry and only soaking 2-3 times a week, because without concrete scientific backing and the assurance that THERE ARE NO BAD SIDE AFFECTS from keeping tortoises "swampy" its not a chance their willing to take.

I understand people wanting to do whats right by their tortoises. I also understand the passion people are developing for wanting a smooth shelled tortoise. I also think that the "as a matter of fact" stance on humidity and hydration some here are promoting is a bit premature and boarderline reckless.

excactly what promted people too go from fife's theory too swamp,when did a humid hide become insuficient?

Richard Fife did/does not have a theory of "swamp"*.. he found with his redfoot hatchlings that higher humidity [ misting directly on carapace.. which he has never made 'public' claims to ] had a dramatic affect on the growth/appearance. He has/had no issues with his sulcata's because they are provided with 'natural' outdoor/indoor environment.

* Tom came up with the "swamp" theory because of his -% of humidity where he lives.

Unlikely there will EVER be any "scientific" research done for ANY tortoise.. in relation to pyramiding in captivity.. so you can discount that excuse onarock and others'. How could raising a tortoise in captivity to have a smooth shell ( like in the wild ) EVER have long-term ill-effects? Are you serious?

Often one or more of the "balanced" needs have to be 'enhanced' to get the needed results.. low humidity environment happens to be one of them!

[ since I type and think so slow.. I often have others reply or edit what I'm replying to before I post ]

Terry K

I am serious, are you? You dont know. I dont use it as an excuse. I used it as an example, as a reason people might not keep tortoises "That Hydrated" or "That Humid". However, I did state that the promotion of the extreme conditions "Swamp" is reckless without further study.

I also stated "Nerd" that I dont dispute the results, I only responded to the original poster that there could be some reasons for them not to keep torts as Tom or the Fifes do. Believe it or not some actually test the water before they jump in.

Youve demonstrated once again Nerd that your wrong. Tom keeps his whole room at 80% plus humidity, not because he lives in a dry area (are you serious) but because he feels thats what it takes to get smooth shells. 80% humidity is 80% humidity where ever you are. I cant believe you stated that. If I were to go with that line of thinking I should keep my hatchlings at 100 or 110 percent humidity because its allready 80% or is it the other way around? LOL.

Natural/Indoor, kind of a contradiction dont you think?

---

I find interesting that you have 8 torts raised the same way and half show signs of pyramiding,if you publish this info it will stop all the debate.we just need too determine if what you did do caused the normals too happen or if what you did not do caused the pyramiding.

I too find it interesting. I have some thoughts as to why the two pyramided. How about this, something I have posted in the past. Dr.Peter Liu, a platynota expert, for lack of a better term, stated that he believes roughly 10% of the wild population is pyramid, by his field estimations. That doesnt really mean anything in my group, but its worth noting.

 

[Madkins007]

haha, onarock, are you being serious or joking? i guess in humid hawaii you should never have a problem with a pyramided tortoise, but in less-than-humid oklahoma we have to soak our torts daily to give them enough humidity to keep their shells smooth. it isn't completely understood why just yet, but it is pretty much confirmed that smooth shells are a result of high humidity. some of the speculations involve a lack of humidity creating a dry shell that is not lubricated enough to be able to grow out and around, so it grows up instead. instead of increasing the size of the tortoise, which demands more lubrication, it has to grow somewhere, so it grows up, because that size stays relatively the same and only slightly larger with each growth ring. again though, that's not 100% cemented in scientific facts.

Actually, what Fife, Weisner, and Tom showed us is that high humidity can prevent pyramiding all other things being equal. Their research did not address bone density, like Andy Highfield believes, with evidence, is a part of the problem.

Humidity is important, but not more important than the other elements Maggie, etc. preach.

---

Maybe they are still willing to keep their tortoises dry and only soaking 2-3 times a week, because without concrete scientific backing and the assurance that THERE ARE NO BAD SIDE AFFECTS from keeping tortoises "swampy" its not a chance their willing to take.

I understand people wanting to do whats right by their tortoises. I also understand the passion people are developing for wanting a smooth shelled tortoise. I also think that the "as a matter of fact" stance on humidity and hydration some here are promoting is a bit premature and boarderline reckless.

excactly what promted people too go from fife's theory too swamp,when did a humid hide become insuficient?

I live in Omaha NE and in the winter, our humidity is very low. I do not soak my 4 baby Red-foots (Cherry-heads) torts except about once a month, nor do I do a lot of misting. I DO try to keep the habitat warm and humid with a couple different heating systems and a warmed, dampened substrate. I have several microclimates in there as well.

I avoid too many carbs and calories in their diet and supplement with fiber, calcium and vitamin D. The habitat is big enough that the little guys have lots of room to roam, places they can climb, etc.

So far- smooth growth with even growth rings.

As per the BALANCE theory: bone-healthy diet with UVB, exercise, balanced heat and humidity, and hydration.

 

[John]

Maybe they are still willing to keep their tortoises dry and only soaking 2-3 times a week, because without concrete scientific backing and the assurance that THERE ARE NO BAD SIDE AFFECTS from keeping tortoises "swampy" its not a chance their willing to take.

I understand people wanting to do whats right by their tortoises. I also understand the passion people are developing for wanting a smooth shelled tortoise. I also think that the "as a matter of fact" stance on humidity and hydration some here are promoting is a bit premature and boarderline reckless.

excactly what promted people too go from fife's theory too swamp,when did a humid hide become insuficient?

Richard Fife did/does not have a theory of "swamp"*.. he found with his redfoot hatchlings that higher humidity [ misting directly on carapace.. which he has never made 'public' claims to ] had a dramatic affect on the growth/appearance. He has/had no issues with his sulcata's because they are provided with 'natural' outdoor/indoor environment.

* Tom came up with the "swamp" theory because of his -% of humidity where he lives.

Unlikely there will EVER be any "scientific" research done for ANY tortoise.. in relation to pyramiding in captivity.. so you can discount that excuse onarock and others'. How could raising a tortoise in captivity to have a smooth shell ( like in the wild ) EVER have long-term ill-effects? Are you serious?

Often one or more of the "balanced" needs have to be 'enhanced' to get the needed results.. low humidity environment happens to be one of them!

[ since I type and think so slow.. I often have others reply or edit what I'm replying to before I post ]

Terry K

I am serious, are you? You dont know. I dont use it as an excuse. I used it as an example, as a reason people might not keep tortoises "That Hydrated" or "That Humid". However, I did state that the promotion of the extreme conditions "Swamp" is reckless without further study.

I also stated "Nerd" that I dont dispute the results, I only responded to the original poster that there could be some reasons for them not to keep torts as Tom or the Fifes do. Believe it or not some actually test the water before they jump in.

Youve demonstrated once again Nerd that your wrong. Tom keeps his whole room at 80% plus humidity, not because he lives in a dry area (are you serious) but because he feels thats what it takes to get smooth shells. 80% humidity is 80% humidity where ever you are. I cant believe you stated that. If I were to go with that line of thinking I should keep my hatchlings at 100 or 110 percent humidity because its allready 80% or is it the other way around? LOL.

Natural/Indoor, kind of a contradiction dont you think?

---

I find interesting that you have 8 torts raised the same way and half show signs of pyramiding,if you publish this info it will stop all the debate.we just need too determine if what you did do caused the normals too happen or if what you did not do caused the pyramiding.

I too find it interesting. I have some thoughts as to why the two pyramided. How about this, something I have posted in the past. Dr.Peter Liu, a platynota expert, for lack of a better term, stated that he believes roughly 10% of the wild population is pyramid, by his field estimations. That doesnt really mean anything in my group, but its worth noting.

---

so this is leading too it being genetic?

 

[onarock]

Squamata, my post was only intended to infuse some other thinking in regards to pyramid tortoises in the wild or captivity. Most seem to be under the impression that wild tortoises, other than the ones known to pyramid as part of their genetic makeup, dont pyramid in the wild and that is simply not true. The reason or reasons for platynota pyramiding in the wild is not understood.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

BTW...While I do advocate the policy of 80% humidity, I keep a humid substrate but do not mist at all. I soak several times a week so they can drink, and keep a moist substrate, I pour water and stir it around with my hand. I do what I was taught years ago and have continued to do so. It may be old fashioned but I have found it works. I am not a fiend about having a humid hide or more than about 80% humidity. If my percentage of humidity falls I don't get all riled up about it, I just don't care that much.

Years ago I was a member of TT and got into a dispute with AH about Sulcata needing humidity to keep from being pyramided. He said they didn't need humidity, I said they did and that part of where they lived was humid. We battled back and forth and I was called rude names by some of the other members and they also said that Sulcata didn't need humidity to prevent pyramiding and there was no humidity where they lived. Anyhow, we went back and forth with me feeling put down and insulted and the end result was that I got banned for life...but right now it is 82 degrees with 73% humidity in the biggest part of their territory...

 

[Madkins007]

So many therioes. but what about a desert tortoise? they live in a very dry and warm/hot enviroments. when left alone and not taken into captivity, there shells ( least all the ones i have seen) are smooth. We had one while growing up. she lived in the back yard and ate the weeds and what ever fruit that was on the ground. sometimes she was in the sprinklers and a few times in the summer dad would put down the hose and she would drink her fill.
She never got any "special" treatment. she grew and was healthy and had a smooth shell. Are there types of torts and turts that are just more prone than others?

"She" had a 'humid' hide out there someplace sara!

Yvonne we do know the effect of what 'we' do the first year of their life! Good or bad...

Terry K

You always tell me to document my claims. You'll need to document this one. Andy Highfield documented the conditions in several hides for several torts in his Spain trips and rarely found any that were humid (and even then only after unusually heavy rain for short periods.

Reports of desert tortoise burrows report that they are sometimes more humid than the surface, but they are nowhere near 'high' humidity. The idea that their urine makes it more humid is interesting but as sandy as the burrows are, the small amount of urine they contain are unlikely to make a big difference- besides, voiding their urine puts them at risk of dehydration.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

So many therioes. but what about a desert tortoise? they live in a very dry and warm/hot enviroments. when left alone and not taken into captivity, there shells ( least all the ones i have seen) are smooth. We had one while growing up. she lived in the back yard and ate the weeds and what ever fruit that was on the ground. sometimes she was in the sprinklers and a few times in the summer dad would put down the hose and she would drink her fill.
She never got any "special" treatment. she grew and was healthy and had a smooth shell. Are there types of torts and turts that are just more prone than others?

"She" had a 'humid' hide out there someplace sara!

Yvonne we do know the effect of what 'we' do the first year of their life! Good or bad...

Terry K

You always tell me to document my claims. You'll need to document this one. Andy Highfield documented the conditions in several hides for several torts in his Spain trips and rarely found any that were humid (and even then only after unusually heavy rain for short periods.

Reports of desert tortoise burrows report that they are sometimes more humid than the surface, but they are nowhere near 'high' humidity. The idea that their urine makes it more humid is interesting but as sandy as the burrows are, the small amount of urine they contain are unlikely to make a big difference- besides, voiding their urine puts them at risk of dehydration.

Mark, I think that the urine in the burrows thing is more for Sulcata then desert tortoises. I have found that Bob voids daily in his shed and it's a considerable amount. I can see where that would create humidity in a burrow. It feels sorta humid to me in his shed and it's enough to make my eyes water. He drinks daily and urinates every day making me clean it up. Now that it's frozen outside he is contained enough in his shed so I get to see what his output really is.

 

[onarock]

Madkins, well put. This is part of the problem with an unscientific approach and the excuse that there will likely never be a scientific approach is irresponsible. Promoting these theorys as fact intentionally or unintentionally is detramental to the "newbie" that might construde it as fact. And now it appears we have people playing a game of connect the dots using pure speculation as fact. "She had a humid hide out there somewhere" Is that so? Must be, since the humidity theory is no longer a theory and is now proven. A good example of "reaching" or connecting the dots.

 

[sara]

Hi Sara: Yes there are, however, it mostly happen during the first year of the tortoise's life. And no one really knows much of anything about that first year in wild tortoise babies.

Hello emysemys'- thank you for the reply. I wish there were more documenteries on this. you see stuff on just about every other animal out there, but never much on tortoise except for sites like this. It would be great if a clutch was filmed in its natural enviroment and followed for the first year. But i guess that would be too costly and hard to follow the little buggers. But it would still be cool!

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Are these pyramided? -

 

[sara]

So many therioes. but what about a desert tortoise? they live in a very dry and warm/hot enviroments. when left alone and not taken into captivity, there shells ( least all the ones i have seen) are smooth. We had one while growing up. she lived in the back yard and ate the weeds and what ever fruit that was on the ground. sometimes she was in the sprinklers and a few times in the summer dad would put down the hose and she would drink her fill.
She never got any "special" treatment. she grew and was healthy and had a smooth shell. Are there types of torts and turts that are just more prone than others?

"She" had a 'humid' hide out there someplace sara!

Yvonne we do know the effect of what 'we' do the first year of their life! Good or bad...

Terry K

You always tell me to document my claims. You'll need to document this one. Andy Highfield documented the conditions in several hides for several torts in his Spain trips and rarely found any that were humid (and even then only after unusually heavy rain for short periods.

Reports of desert tortoise burrows report that they are sometimes more humid than the surface, but they are nowhere near 'high' humidity. The idea that their urine makes it more humid is interesting but as sandy as the burrows are, the small amount of urine they contain are unlikely to make a big difference- besides, voiding their urine puts them at risk of dehydration.

very interresting. it just adds to the mystery. its a crazy thought, but i'll throw it out there cause it makes me very courious. But I know they can slow down the motabolism, so can they controll the humidity they need even with such little moisture? utilitze the smallest amount of urin?
now that i think about it, it is a dumb question. and of course i am thinking about a desert tort not a tropical one.

 

[onarock]

Redfoot, are they? you tell us

 

[Becki]

Back to the original OP... If I can raise a smooth sulcata, why can't they?

 

[matt41gb]

You know, there are tons of posts on here debating why some captive raised tortoises are pyramided. Has anyone ever thought that "stress" could be a contributing factor? Being stressed and coming down from it causes all sorts of health problems in tortoises. I think the majority of tortoise keepers ignore the fact that they're handling a wild animal everyday, thinking that they like being in captivity. Nobody ever thinks that everything to a tortoise stresses it out. For example, handling (to them, they're about to be eaten,) competition at the food bowl, watering hole, ect... When your tortoise has a runny nose, URI, parasites, anorexia, lethargy, stress is always the initial, underlying cause. I definitely think we need to re-evaluate the whole "pyramiding" debate and add stress as a factor.

We all know that a stressed tortoise will eventually become an ill tortoise. Why can't a stressed tortoise become a pyramided tortoise?

-Matt

-Matt