pyramided torts... still?

[moswen]

you know, anger is nothing new to my emotions. i get irritated pretty easily... most of it is just me and my personality and i know it, so i just calm myself and supress my feelings. most of my anger/irritation issues no one would ever know, because i'm master enough of myself to understand when my anger/irriation is or is not justified.... i mean, i really can't expect everyone i meet to already know i have a real problem with sounds... sounds are the worst. i can't stand extremely loud noises, repetitive noises, people touching me in crowds, a night time dj at my local radio station (oh i can't stand her voice!), allowing the light switch to "click" when you could grab it with your fingers and gently glide it up with no annoying end "click" sound at all, dogs barking... i know, i'll be the first to admit -i'm wierd!

but really, i feel as though this time it's justified. i just can't fathom how there are STILL pyramided torts being sold (*cough*kingsnake*cough*) in the world today. yes, i understand, a 30 year old tort has no other way to be. the information we've recently uncovered is only 12 years old. but a 3 year old? a 2 year old? even at 5 years old i feel as though the information is old enough to be trusted and that they should be smooth. when i see an ad for a ___ year old tortoise, and it's under 5 years old, i feel as though the breeder should just know better.

sorry, i don't care if you've been doing it your whole life and this how you do it and you've raised 20 generations of "healthy, happy torts;" their shells are NOT supposed to be that way and it IS bad for them. it creates pockets in a shell that's supposed to be hard, smooth, dense, and increadibly sturdy. a pyramided tort's shell is NOT sturdy. it is a very dangerous attribute for them to have. and you, as an EXPERIENCED, KNOWLEDGEABLE TORTOISE KEEPER should know better!!!!

it's a shame, the poor tortoise is going to live with a shell for it's whole life of 50-100 years, grown the way nature did not intend, because some people are just too retarded to read up, or care, or bother themselves with the time to soak a tortoise. really, i have 6 and it takes me less than 1 hour a day to feed and soak them. the longest part is just preparing it, the amount of tortoises i have doesn't really affect it. i feel it would probably take close to the same time if i had 1 or 20.

if it's your job and all you do is sell torts, or if you see it as a second job and you're breeding to make some extra money, should you not spend the time to do so correctly? if you've got 200 hatchlings and you don't have the time to soak them all, maybe you should not have 200 hatchlings, or be doing this as your second -or even first- job. if you can't do your job with an excellence---- or even a MEDIOCRE--- that speaks that you might know a thing or two about what you're doing, then what ARE you doing?

and please understand, i understand that a small amount of pyramiding just can't be helped. that doesn't make me angry. at least you're trying. what i'm talking about is the poor babies that are so pyramided you can't even hide it with an angled-top shell shot. i've seen a lot of pics of people trying to get the best angle to hide the pyramiding too.

i mean, why even de-worm your tortoises? why buy them the correct light? why FEED them? why not just allow them to deteriorate until they're picked up by someone who has a compassion and a heart for them, and leave them to someone else to bring back from the brink of death? and HOW ON EARTH can you DARE to call them "BEAUTIFUL"???

okay. the end. i feel better now. thanks for listening!

 

[jrholls]

Amen.

 

[onarock]

So, your saying they should be soaked more? Is that the cause?

 

[moswen]

haha, onarock, are you being serious or joking? i guess in humid hawaii you should never have a problem with a pyramided tortoise, but in less-than-humid oklahoma we have to soak our torts daily to give them enough humidity to keep their shells smooth. it isn't completely understood why just yet, but it is pretty much confirmed that smooth shells are a result of high humidity. some of the speculations involve a lack of humidity creating a dry shell that is not lubricated enough to be able to grow out and around, so it grows up instead. instead of increasing the size of the tortoise, which demands more lubrication, it has to grow somewhere, so it grows up, because that size stays relatively the same and only slightly larger with each growth ring. again though, that's not 100% cemented in scientific facts.

 

[Neal]

Since this post is in the general section, I won't debate your post, however I don't agree with asome of your opinions. I will say that I agree with EJ Pirog and others that a pyramdided totoise can still be healthy.

I do agree with you that we know enough now that "gross pyramiding" can be avoided. Unfortunatley there are a lot of people out there that don't have this information. I wonder what percentage of the tortoise keeper population our group of 5,000 ish represents.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Rebekah, I don't know what got you all rattled up, but it takes 4 things to keep a tortoise from pyramiding, a good and varied diet, strong and consistent UVB, lots of exercise and high (80%) humidity, miss any one of those and you've got pyramids. You MUST be consistent in making sure you take care of every one of those things or you go wrong and you've got pyramids and once they start you have the hella time stopping it. The humidity is more than just soaking the animal, you must keep a moist substrate and finding a good substrate is not easy for some people. They needs lots of exercise, that means taking them out of whatever habitat they're in and walking them around, soaking daily is a must and lots of dark leafy greens and weeds are necessary. So while I say there's only 4 things they are hard to complete for some people. It's time consuming and all encompassing. Completing all 4 things daily are a must or you've got pyramids and doing those 4 in the winter for some of us is really hard...So while I totally agree with your rant it's not as easy as it sounds. I can't STAND looking at a pyramided young tortoise knowing how the rest of his life is going to be.
I see Bob out in the snow pawing at the frozen grass and laugh, but how do I get exercise for my 7 small tortoises? I certainly can't make them run around in the snow and I don't ever advocate letting them run around the house. So I have created a small exercise area using astro turf (remember that?) a small fence keeping it enclosed and rocks to climb over and on. They have a 100 watt incandescent bulb for heat and me sitting there to tip them back over as they tumble off the rocks. I have branches to help too. Spring and summer will be easier for me (and them) but for now, it's my created jungle gym for my small tortoises and so far they are healthy and smooth...so that's how I do it...I hope this helps somebody with the same problems...thank heaven my box turtles are adults now and smooth as a babies butt. My water turtles are also smooth, so I just have the small tortoises to worry about and I will be getting 9 or 10 of them next week so they will be added to my gym routine...It gets me up in the morning...

 

[onarock]

Well, like I have stated before on other posts, I have tortoises with pyramid shells. I use my platynota example, of the 8 I have 4 have smooth shells, 2 have almost smooth (a little lumpy, but not pyramid) and 2 have pyramid shells. I have kept them all the same. I'm not disputing what people are finding so far in regards to "swamp keeping", I just dont think its natural for some species (mainly babcocki and sulcata). Your right I do live in a place with high humidity. I also live in a place where a 100 degree day or hotter is almost non existant and even a 95 degree day is rare and all my tortoses thrive. I'm not sold on the "swamp". I do, however, think that humidity plays a part in an equasion in relation to heat and basking temps.

As far as not being happy with what your seeing on kingsnake in ragards to younger tortoises and pyramid shells, I think maybe a deep breath is in order. Not everyone is sold on the "swamp" theory and most probably dont know about it. There are many examples of the pharmaceutical industry pushing drugs on people only to find out years later that they have really harmfull side affects. "The Devil I Know".

We here, well most on TFO, advocate "Responsable" tortoise husbandry in regards to our overall approach, yet we seem to be jumping head first into a method of husbandry that is backed by very little, if any scientific study. Is this really Respnsable? This is the one area that I have to agree with A.H. on. Again, I want to state that I'm not saying that its not working, I just believe high humidity, 80% and up is only recissary because there is an issue somewhere else in the method. Its not enough just to say keep them hot and humid and thats that, because if we have learned anything in the past 20 years of tortoise husbandry its that we dont really know anything or at least much.

 

[Yvonne G]

Wow, Rebekah: You got all riled up!! You go girl!

 

[zzzdanz]

Great post onarock!!!!!

 

[moswen]

lol, thanks yvonne! i'm all cooled down now after a day of housework, so sorry guys about the rant, i do realize there's more to it than just the soaking, but soaking is 99% of it i believe. good diets, excersize, and the right bulb on newspapers and no water source anywhere will still result in a pyramided tort. just look at mos. i'm really quite a believer in richard fife's findings about the soaking and humid substrate.

mos is still kind of pyramided too you know, even though i didn't start his pyramiding, i have a pyramided hatchling and i'm not pointing fingers... like i told you in the opening paragraph, i get pretty irritated/angry a lot! i'm over it now though, i just had to vent to someone who at least understands tortoises, kaylynn would have probably looked at me with a big question mark on her face if i'd said all that to her...!

just one thing though, i don't agree when it is said some people may not have the information... the internet is in everyone's household these days, and information on any subject is just a click away. i know alot of the information on the internet is out-dated, but if you're going to take the time to breed and sell the babies, you should know what you're doing. which involves research, and a couple of good books and some good internet reading is really quite simple to acquire these days.

just like the law... i believe ignorance is no excuse! especially when information is so readily available!

 

[Redfoot NERD]

lol, thanks yvonne! i'm all cooled down now after a day of housework, so sorry guys about the rant, i do realize there's more to it than just the soaking, but soaking is 99% of it i believe. good diets, excersize, and the right bulb on newspapers and no water source anywhere will still result in a pyramided tort. just look at mos. i'm really quite a believer in richard fife's findings about the soaking and humid substrate.

mos is still kind of pyramided too you know, even though i didn't start his pyramiding, i have a pyramided hatchling and i'm not pointing fingers... like i told you in the opening paragraph, i get pretty irritated/angry a lot! i'm over it now though, i just had to vent to someone who at least understands tortoises, kaylynn would have probably looked at me with a big question mark on her face if i'd said all that to her...!

just one thing though, i don't agree when it is said some people may not have the information... the internet is in everyone's household these days, and information on any subject is just a click away. i know alot of the information on the internet is out-dated, but if you're going to take the time to breed and sell the babies, you should know what you're doing. which involves research, and a couple of good books and some good internet reading is really quite simple to acquire these days.

just like the law... i believe ignorance is no excuse! especially when information is so readily available!

Rebekah.. unfortunately "most" of these "tortoise-mills" [ like puppy-mills ] only care about one thing -$$$. And the 'Petstores' support them.. and sell stuff that isn't needed or can be bought for 1/4 the amount at Lowe's, etc.

You think you are frustrated? Those of us that breed and sell tortoises have a hard time convincing...... that paying a little more for a well-started healthy hatchling, etc. [ which costs more to create ] is the best bargain out there! Even if a well-started healthy hatchling, etc. costs 2X as much.. you'll have no Vet. bills and will receive advice [ for life ] and a Caresheet that works. Much less than 1X visit to the Vet., etc., etc., etc.! ( consider the 'Petstores' too )

Is anyone hearing this.. anyone? Reply please.....

Terry K

 

[onarock]

Maybe they are still willing to keep their tortoises dry and only soaking 2-3 times a week, because without concrete scientific backing and the assurance that THERE ARE NO BAD SIDE AFFECTS from keeping tortoises "swampy" its not a chance their willing to take.

I understand people wanting to do whats right by their tortoises. I also understand the passion people are developing for wanting a smooth shelled tortoise. I also think that the "as a matter of fact" stance on humidity and hydration some here are promoting is a bit premature and boarderline reckless.

 

[John]

i here ya terry

 

[RianSeeking]

I like maggie's exercise gym idea. I think I need to make a run to The Home Despot.

 

[John]

Maybe they are still willing to keep their tortoises dry and only soaking 2-3 times a week, because without concrete scientific backing and the assurance that THERE ARE NO BAD SIDE AFFECTS from keeping tortoises "swampy" its not a chance their willing to take.

I understand people wanting to do whats right by their tortoises. I also understand the passion people are developing for wanting a smooth shelled tortoise. I also think that the "as a matter of fact" stance on humidity and hydration some here are promoting is a bit premature and boarderline reckless.

excactly what promted people too go from fife's theory too swamp,when did a humid hide become insuficient?

 

[onarock]

Maybe they are still willing to keep their tortoises dry and only soaking 2-3 times a week, because without concrete scientific backing and the assurance that THERE ARE NO BAD SIDE AFFECTS from keeping tortoises "swampy" its not a chance their willing to take.

I understand people wanting to do whats right by their tortoises. I also understand the passion people are developing for wanting a smooth shelled tortoise. I also think that the "as a matter of fact" stance on humidity and hydration some here are promoting is a bit premature and boarderline reckless.

excactly what promted people too go from fife's theory too swamp,when did a humid hide become insuficient?

Maybe I'm using bad terminoligy. I am using "swamp" to describe what I have been reading in regards to pyramid shells and what it takes to prevent it, i.e. (high humidity 80% plus, twice daily soakings and constant misting) It seems to me that people were taking the humid hide theory that the Fifes "popularized" to the next level because they still were not getting the results they wanted.

 

[John]

i have a tort that came from richard and it is fine in every way

 

[onarock]

i have a tort that came from richard and it is fine in every way

Congrats!

 

[John]

I find interesting that you have 8 torts raised the same way and half show signs of pyramiding,if you publish this info it will stop all the debate.we just need too determine if what you did do caused the normals too happen or if what you did not do caused the pyramiding.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Maybe they are still willing to keep their tortoises dry and only soaking 2-3 times a week, because without concrete scientific backing and the assurance that THERE ARE NO BAD SIDE AFFECTS from keeping tortoises "swampy" its not a chance their willing to take.

I understand people wanting to do whats right by their tortoises. I also understand the passion people are developing for wanting a smooth shelled tortoise. I also think that the "as a matter of fact" stance on humidity and hydration some here are promoting is a bit premature and boarderline reckless.

excactly what promted people too go from fife's theory too swamp,when did a humid hide become insuficient?

Richard Fife did/does not have a theory of "swamp"*.. he found with his redfoot hatchlings that higher humidity [ misting directly on carapace.. which he has never made 'public' claims to ] had a dramatic affect on the growth/appearance. He has/had no issues with his sulcata's because they are provided with 'natural' outdoor/indoor environment.

* Tom came up with the "swamp" theory because of his -% of humidity where he lives.

Unlikely there will EVER be any "scientific" research done for ANY tortoise.. in relation to pyramiding in captivity.. so you can discount that excuse onarock and others'. How could raising a tortoise in captivity to have a smooth shell ( like in the wild ) EVER have long-term ill-effects? Are you serious?

Often one or more of the "balanced" needs have to be 'enhanced' to get the needed results.. low humidity environment happens to be one of them!

[ since I type and think so slow.. I often have others reply or edit what I'm replying to before I post ]

Terry K