OH NO A HYBRID ! MY LEPRACUTTAS

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CactusVinnie

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Moofahsa said:
He owns the tortoises and he can do as he pleases. I think it is very interesting, granted I am new to all of this but sheesh doesn't make sense to me that some people are pointing fingers like this is what is wrong with the world. This could potentially make a new niche market and attract more new people to the hobby!

How many years above the age of 12 are you?
You "own" your toys, or your mobile phone. Not a living creature!!! You keep and care about a living creature- it's a big difference.
Even for objects you are responsable, because you just can't dump them anywhere, since they will became trash that is unpleasant and harmful for other people and environment! See, in fact a person can't just do things "as he pleases"- or he can, but "as he pleases" is a well thougt decision for a civilised, intelligent and responsable person.
And, "sheesh", doesn't make sense to you that "market niches" and "attracting more people to the hobby" aren't by far a good reason for such a thing??

Since there are so many species almost lost in the wild, why not invest the available resources of a hobbyst (time, money, room) in breeding one of those, to reduce collecting pressure on the wild ones??
Waste of resources, irresponsability... poor critters did not ask for being born as genetic garbage. They (HOPEFULLY!!!) will live a solitary life, never mate and perpetuate their species- simply because they ARE NOT A SPECIES!

What's wrong with the world, indeed...
 

N2TORTS

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CactusVinnie said:
Moofahsa said:
He owns the tortoises and he can do as he pleases. I think it is very interesting, granted I am new to all of this but sheesh doesn't make sense to me that some people are pointing fingers like this is what is wrong with the world. This could potentially make a new niche market and attract more new people to the hobby!

How many years above the age of 12 are you?
You "own" your toys, or your mobile phone. Not a living creature!!! You keep and care about a living creature- it's a big difference.
Even for objects you are responsable, because you just can't dump them anywhere, since they will became trash that is unpleasant and harmful for other people and environment! See, in fact a person can't just do things "as he pleases"- or he can, but "as he pleases" is a well thougt decision for a civilised, intelligent and responsable person.
And, "sheesh", doesn't make sense to you that "market niches" and "attracting more people to the hobby" aren't by far a good reason for such a thing??

Since there are so many species almost lost in the wild, why not invest the available resources of a hobbyst (time, money, room) in breeding one of those, to reduce collecting pressure on the wild ones??
Waste of resources, irresponsability... poor critters did not ask for being born as genetic garbage. They (HOPEFULLY!!!) will live a solitary life, never mate and perpetuate their species- simply because they ARE NOT A SPECIES!

What's wrong with the world, indeed...

He is probably much older than 12 , shows much more class in his opinions (one thing WRONG in this world , peope hiding behind a keyboard and mouthing off, with 0 exeprience ....oh yea ... they own a sullie for 3 years .. ha ha ha) and ...his comments were just as fair as everyone else. You all crack me up ... it's a tortoise!!! Maybe we should focus on the human race ......Now that is going to hell. Where do you think cancers and hiv...stem from?... Mixing human races, countries, imports , Illegals, hybrids,,,,what ever you want to call it. Is it wrong ..? of course not because its accepted ...Maybe birthcontrol should hold more importace.... we're running out of resources people .....
 

GeoTerraTestudo

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N2TORTS said:
Maybe we should focus on the human race ......Now that is going to hell. Where do you think cancers and hiv...stem from?... Mixing human races, countries, imports , Illegals, hybrids,,,,what ever you want to call it. Is it wrong ..? of course not because its accepted ...Maybe birthcontrol should hold more importace.... we're running out of resources people .....

Human ecology is certainly a very important subject ... however, if you're likening hybrid tortoises to mixed-race humans, well, you're way off base.
 

vanillapooh1979

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I feel like I drug up an old isue and have caused issues now. The photo of the mixed tortoise is a beautiful tortoise.
 

Terry Allan Hall

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Moofahsa said:
He owns the tortoises and he can do as he pleases. I think it is very interesting, granted I am new to all of this but sheesh doesn't make sense to me that some people are pointing fingers like this is what is wrong with the world. This could potentially make a new niche market and attract more new people to the hobby!

Attracting more people to the hobby is a good thing, indeed...and your comments about a "niche market" is worth considering, but most folks prefer to keep more "natural" tortoises, at least these days, so this "niche market" will probably remain tiny.

Hard to say about the future, of course.

vanillapooh1979 said:
I feel like I drug up an old isue and have caused issues now. The photo of the mixed tortoise is a beautiful tortoise.

No problem, V...folks are just sharing opinions and (mostly) in a polite, civilized manner. It's a good thing. :cool:
 

Kristina

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N2TORTS said:
Maybe we should focus on the human race ......Now that is going to hell. Where do you think cancers and hiv...stem from?... Mixing human races, countries, imports , Illegals, hybrids,,,,what ever you want to call it.

Are you seriously suggesting that HIV and cancer are the results of interracial relationships?

Human beings are not HYBRIDS, because we are all the same SPECIES, no matter our skin color. I can't believe the bigotry of that statement.

I have had cancer and undergone chemotherapy. For you to suggest that it was the result of one of my parents being Caucasian, and the other Hispanic really, really ticks me off.

As far as the hybrid tortoises, I think that they are a curiousity, nothing more. I personally agree with keeping the species pure. That is my personal opinion, which I am just as entitled to as anyone else ;)
 

expo tort

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CactusVinnie said:
How many years above the age of 12 are you?
You "own" your toys, or your mobile phone. Not a living creature!!! You keep and care about a living creature- it's a big difference.
Even for objects you are responsable, because you just can't dump them anywhere, since they will became trash that is unpleasant and harmful for other people and environment! See, in fact a person can't just do things "as he pleases"- or he can, but "as he pleases" is a well thougt decision for a civilised, intelligent and responsable person.
And, "sheesh", doesn't make sense to you that "market niches" and "attracting more people to the hobby" aren't by far a good reason for such a thing??

Since there are so many species almost lost in the wild, why not invest the available resources of a hobbyst (time, money, room) in breeding one of those, to reduce collecting pressure on the wild ones??
Waste of resources, irresponsability... poor critters did not ask for being born as genetic garbage. They (HOPEFULLY!!!) will live a solitary life, never mate and perpetuate their species- simply because they ARE NOT A SPECIES!

What's wrong with the world, indeed...

To be clear there are people on this forum who ARE TWELVE! SO STEP OFF! Ok done. You do make a good point but think tort Z is a new species and it had to come from tort X and Y reproducing.
 

GeoTerraTestudo

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Kristina said:
Are you seriously suggesting that HIV and cancer are the results of interracial relationships?

Human beings are not HYBRIDS, because we are all the same SPECIES, no matter our skin color. I can't believe the bigotry of that statement.

I have had cancer and undergone chemotherapy. For you to suggest that it was the result of one of my parents being Caucasian, and the other Hispanic really, really ticks me off.

As far as the hybrid tortoises, I think that they are a curiousity, nothing more. I personally agree with keeping the species pure. That is my personal opinion, which I am just as entitled to as anyone else ;)

Yea!! Kristina, you are right on, both biologically and socially. You tell 'em. :cool:
 

N2TORTS

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Kristina said:
N2TORTS said:
Maybe we should focus on the human race ......Now that is going to hell. Where do you think cancers and hiv...stem from?... Mixing human races, countries, imports , Illegals, hybrids,,,,what ever you want to call it.

Are you seriously suggesting that HIV and cancer are the results of interracial relationships?

Human beings are not HYBRIDS, because we are all the same SPECIES, no matter our skin color. I can't believe the bigotry of that statement.

No to your first insight ....you dont even know what race/gender medical situation I'am or have gone thru.
Yes HIV came from Africa!
Yes....Different races carry different immunities and are carriers of different cancers and disease , thus offspring of these two could and most likely carry those introduced traits.
Of course melanin is only one aspect of what people call "race", there are a number of others as well. Skeletons are different and general races are easily identified with just a few bones. Also, what about the rest of the variation we see? Why are there differences in hair, for example?s this just an evolutionary accident (unlike skin color)? The dominant theory (called Out of Africa) holds that Homo sapiens (us) evolved in Africa about 150k yrs ago. There are fossils that are sometimes called "archaeic sapiens" that go back farther, but that's really a way of saying we don't quite know where they fit in. mtDNA agrees pretty much with the date of 150k yrs ago. Check out books by Ian Tattersall for a good description of this.
Some Out of Africa folks would argue that we evolved physically by about 150k yrs ago, but that our unique language and mental ability did not arise until as recently as 50-70k yrs ago (when you start seeing cave paintings and the like). This is a lot harder to prove than just looking at physical features.
If it is so easy to get differences in physical features, why not some differences in mental abilities as well? Should we not accept the differences we keep seeing on IQ tests between races and regions? The minority view, called the Multiregional Hypothesis, states that spaiens evolved all over the world at the same time from earlier forms of Homo. That we've basically been one species for the last ~2M yrs. Homo Erectus in Asia, Home Neanderthalenis in Europe, and Homo Ergastor in Africa all were really the same species that interbred and evolved into us. Check out books by Milford Wolpoff on this theory.
Has there ever been a case of parallel evolution? If you isolate one group from another, give it a few hundred thousand years they won't be able to breed anymore, therefore they will be different species. I don't believe that we could have bred with neanderthals or erectii, correct me if I am wrong?
Site:http://www.sciforums.com
 

dmmj

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(snicker) homo erectus.
 

Edna

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"Race" in human beings is a concept that is used to justify discrimination. The differences are trends rather than absolutes. Intelligence as measurable on an IQ test is not an absolute, either. It is a set of mental abilities that happen to have become valued over other kinds of abilities in the last 100 years. And people don't "breed." We form relationships that result in offspring and the perpetuation of the species, in all its beautiful variety.
 

Terry Allan Hall

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N2TORTS said:
Kristina said:
N2TORTS said:
Maybe we should focus on the human race ......Now that is going to hell. Where do you think cancers and hiv...stem from?... Mixing human races, countries, imports , Illegals, hybrids,,,,what ever you want to call it.

Are you seriously suggesting that HIV and cancer are the results of interracial relationships?

Human beings are not HYBRIDS, because we are all the same SPECIES, no matter our skin color. I can't believe the bigotry of that statement.

No to your first insight ....you dont even know what race/gender medical situation I'am or have gone thru.
Yes HIV came from Africa!
Yes....Different races carry different immunities and are carriers of different cancers and disease , thus offspring of these two could and most likely carry those introduced traits.
Of course melanin is only one aspect of what people call "race", there are a number of others as well. Skeletons are different and general races are easily identified with just a few bones. Also, what about the rest of the variation we see? Why are there differences in hair, for example?s this just an evolutionary accident (unlike skin color)? The dominant theory (called Out of Africa) holds that Homo sapiens (us) evolved in Africa about 150k yrs ago. There are fossils that are sometimes called "archaeic sapiens" that go back farther, but that's really a way of saying we don't quite know where they fit in. mtDNA agrees pretty much with the date of 150k yrs ago. Check out books by Ian Tattersall for a good description of this.
Some Out of Africa folks would argue that we evolved physically by about 150k yrs ago, but that our unique language and mental ability did not arise until as recently as 50-70k yrs ago (when you start seeing cave paintings and the like). This is a lot harder to prove than just looking at physical features.
If it is so easy to get differences in physical features, why not some differences in mental abilities as well? Should we not accept the differences we keep seeing on IQ tests between races and regions? The minority view, called the Multiregional Hypothesis, states that spaiens evolved all over the world at the same time from earlier forms of Homo. That we've basically been one species for the last ~2M yrs. Homo Erectus in Asia, Home Neanderthalenis in Europe, and Homo Ergastor in Africa all were really the same species that interbred and evolved into us. Check out books by Milford Wolpoff on this theory.
Has there ever been a case of parallel evolution? If you isolate one group from another, give it a few hundred thousand years they won't be able to breed anymore, therefore they will be different species. I don't believe that we could have bred with neanderthals or erectii, correct me if I am wrong?
Site:http://www.sciforums.com

Actually, there's a lot of strong evidence that Cro-magnons and Neanderthals did intermarry to some extent...no idea about homo erectus.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...neanderthals-humans-mated-interbred-dna-gene/

http://news.discovery.com/human/genetics-neanderthal-110718.html

http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/genetics/ancient-dna-and-neanderthals

dmmj said:
(snicker) homo erectus.

Oh, behave, Captain Awesome! :p
 

GeoTerraTestudo

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Terry Allan Hall said:
N2TORTS said:
Has there ever been a case of parallel evolution? If you isolate one group from another, give it a few hundred thousand years they won't be able to breed anymore, therefore they will be different species. I don't believe that we could have bred with neanderthals or erectii, correct me if I am wrong?
Site:http://www.sciforums.com

Actually, there's a lot of strong evidence that Cro-magnons and Neanderthals did intermarry to some extent...no idea about homo erectus.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...neanderthals-humans-mated-interbred-dna-gene/

http://news.discovery.com/human/genetics-neanderthal-110718.html

http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/genetics/ancient-dna-and-neanderthals

Yes, there is mounting evidence that Homo sapiens and Homo neanderthalensis did interbreed/intermarry. Actually, if you look at the genetics of modern humans all over the world, you find that Neanderthal genes appear to be absent from modern African people, but present in modern non-African people. This suggests that, as humans migrated Out of Africa via the Middle East, they encountered Neanderthals and interbred with them to a small degree.

But again, all of this is irrelevant to the issue of hybrid captive animals, and frankly a distortion of genetics and speciation. All modern humans today are very closely related, more closely related than two gorillas on opposite ends of the same forest. This is probably because our ancestors survived a genetic bottleneck event (like a volcanic eruption) some 70,000 years ago. The few surviving individuals went on to reproduce and found modern humanity. All people alive today come from the same population of early people from "only" a few tens of thousands of years ago. No wonder we can all understand one another's body language, learn each other's spoken languages, and freely interbreed.

Research has shown that there is an optimal genetic distance between individuals that humans and other animals are instinctively attracted to (via scent, for example) when it comes to finding a mate. Closer than that and you risk inbreeding. Farther than that and you risk genetic mismatch. At this "Goldilocks" genetic distance, you have the highest chance of having healthy offspring. Generally, this means marrying/mating with someone outside your extended family, but within your genetic meta-population.

Nevertheless, humans and other conspecific animals from opposite sides of the planet, when brought together by modern transportation, successfully have offspring all the time. A human from Congo and one from England are completely compatible. As are a wolf from Italy and one from Canada. As are grizzly and Syrian brown bears. As are moose from Montana and Sweden. As are lions from India and Kenya. And so on and so on.

Again, that's just because these are representatives of widespread (Holarctic or cosmopolitan) species. Some species just have very large distributions. Therefore, although they wouldn't meet if traveling on their own power, if brought together they can still interbreed and form healthy and fully fertile offspring.

And again, that's completely different from the situation with lepracuttas or other such hybrids not only from different populations, subspecies, or species, but from different genera all together.

How did we get from discussing hybrid tortoises to human genetics, anyway? :(
 

N2TORTS

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Yes, there is mounting evidence that Homo sapiens and Homo neanderthalensis did interbreed/intermarry

..................so isnt that a hybrid? :p

ummm dont know , guess it was the "race" thingy ....plus heck why not throw in some other nonesense... to debate about.
 

GeoTerraTestudo

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N2TORTS said:
Yes, there is mounting evidence that Homo sapiens and Homo neanderthalensis did interbreed/intermarry

..................so isnt that a hybrid? :p

Yep, sure is ... but again, intraspecific hybridization produces mixture, not mules.
 

N2TORTS

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GeoTerraTestudo said:
N2TORTS said:
Yes, there is mounting evidence that Homo sapiens and Homo neanderthalensis did interbreed/intermarry

..................so isnt that a hybrid? :p

Yep, sure is ... but again, intraspecific hybridization produces mixture, not mules.

Which brings me to this question....first why is everyone worried about "breeding" them? Who said anything about breeding them? . 2nd, if the " purists" want to stay "pure" ... no worries their " mules" .
Once again ....I DIDNT BREED THESE...but found it an interesting project that in the 35+ plus years I've owned torts and just about any other herp out there, I took these on a trade when they were very young, just so I could write an accurate document on these lil guys as they progress.
 

CactusVinnie

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N2TORTS,

You not only missed my point- about not treating living creatures like objects that you may "own"- but liberally assumed things about "behind a keyboard, zero experience etc."... BTW, I am not the type owing a "sullie", not even for a day... in my climate. I would be the village lunatic. See the signature and that's what I keep... and breed. Not much fuss, but its fact, and it's enough for me- that's why I am on a tortoise forum.
And I wonder what class, experience and fair comments are you talking about, things that you "feel" emanating from our forum fellow... only 15 messages "old"? I don't have nothing against him!! Just I disagreed his immature and iresponsable view on treating living creatures. That's pretty all.

N2TORTS said:
Maybe we should focus on the human race

... I FULLY agree, but... again... remember... TORTOISE forum?? If we met here, it's because we both have tortoises and zero war/famine zone refugees in our homes... I am- just as many previous writers- against such useless practices, that have only a hue of sensational, and nothing else than downsides.
Sure it's just a tortoise, but if we are talking tortoises, let's talk properly and not ignoring the fact that this event can be just a precedent for other weird crossings. I suppose you know well the animal hobbysts world, where ambitions are often more important than anything- and obtaining a mindblowing hybrid/morph etc. can be a pride for someone, and igniting the ambition and idea in other keepers.

And, BTW, not all that's accepted is correct... unfortunately. Are we objective and smart enough to declare things we "accept" as benefic/correct?? I strongly doubt, in fact, I am quoting you to prove how smart we were until today:

"Maybe we should focus on the human race ......Now that is going to hell...[...]we're running out of resources people ....."...
... and not only that!

Peace... and keep species pure, as Mother Nature left them!


EDIT: lots of interesting things appeared until I posted my reply!!
No regret in digging up the thread, except for the offense resented by 12 years old members (what, feel discriminated LOL? chill, where I came from, people don't feel offended by such things- you 12 YO are not a "cathegory", you are a BEING, and no irony involved... still... to nervous for such a young (r)age ;))...

... and the "race thingy" direction. I must repeat, "where I came from" :), there are no such quick jumps on feeling insulted when a simple word appears in discussion.
Kristina, I am sure it was NO racist etc. shade in N2TORTS reply... as shown, some immunity weaknesses and maybe deeper effects when people living from millenia with their own diseases meet and mix, are real things, but, again, nothing to do with hate or stuff like that.
 
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