OH NO A HYBRID ! MY LEPRACUTTAS

Status
Not open for further replies.

N2TORTS

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
8,803
Oh No A Hybrid!
Many of these comments border on near-hysteria, others simply state that hybridization is unethical. In one case, I remember a member gave the impression that the world would end if additional hybrids of any type are produced. Yet while writing such a post, that same person may have a domestic cat curled up in his or her lap. The writer is blissfully unaware that this cherished pet is most likely a descendant of an intra-specific hybrid, a cross between the African Wild Cat and the Asian Wild Cat . In any event, all of this would have taken place thousands of years ago and the world is still turning.
But one thing is pretty obvious in all these cases. Most people are completely ignorant of what a hybrid truly is, and even more ignorant of some of the benefits of hybridization. Sure, there can be a few 'downsides' to hybrids, but even these have little merit in an argument. Think about that while you go let the dog out. Did you know your canine friend is a hybrid? In his case, there appear to be so many ancestors which contributed to his genetic pool that scientists cannot even agree on which or how many there might be. Yet no dog-lover would ever consider abandoning Fido simply because he's not 100% pure Wolf!
SO …..lets shed some light shall we?
The WORD hybrid is a term applied by plant and animal breeders to the offspring of a cross between two different subspecies or species. Hybrids between different species within the same genus are sometimes known as interspecific hybrids. Hybrids between different sub-species within a species are known as intra-specific hybrids. Hybrids between different genera are sometimes known as intervener .
Hybridization between cultivars or varieties is often used in agriculture to obtain greater vigor or growth (heterosis). The first generation often shows greatly increased vigor and a better yield primarily because many genes for recessive, often deleterious, traits from one parent are masked by corresponding dominant genes in the other parent. Many of the hybrid reptiles produced in today's marketplace also show the positive effects of hybrid vigor. Larger babies, with stronger feeding responses, are often produced.
The offspring can display traits and characteristics of both parents. This is a common reason for hybridizing captive reptiles. Combining two forms with attractive appearances to create a third intermediate form which may be still more uniquely attractive is a common goal. Many breeders also use hybridization as a means to introduce desired mutations into species not currently exhibiting them. One of the first projects along these lines was the use of albino Ruthven's Kingsnakes to introduce the albino gene to the closely related Gray Banded Kingsnake . By carefully selecting the resulting offspring for appearance similar to the Gray Banded Kingsnake, breeders were able to produce albino specimens nearly identical to pure Gray Banded Kingsnakes.
The possibility of natural interbreeding and the production of fertile offspring is an indicator of the genetic closeness of the two species. An understanding of the true relationships between species can be enhanced through the process. DNA compatibility is certainly a more accurate indicator of close relationships than mere anatomy...
The offspring of an interspecific or intergeneric cross may be sterile. Sterility is often attributed to the different number of chromosomes the two species have, for example donkeys have 62 chromosomes, while horses have 64, mules and hinnies have 63. Mules, hinnies, and other normally sterile interspecific hybrids normally cannot produce viable gametes because the extra chromosome cannot make a homologous pair at meiosis, meiosis is disrupted, and viable sperm and eggs are not formed. However, fertility in both female mules and hinnies has been reported with a donkey as the father.
Now the other side of the coin……Loss of 'purity of race'. This is the most common argument presented against hybridization, and it has a bit of merit. However, such argument is often carried to extremes. It's generally broken into a few concepts, most of which are misleading:
"The genetic purity of the race will be lost and the resulting specimens will be unfit for repatriation into the wild population".
"The genetic purity of the captive population will be destroyed forever". Often this argument is presented along with the idea that genetic information about hybrids sold will be lost or misunderstood by keepers acquiring future generations of these animals.
First, let me state that anybody producing hybrids does indeed have an obligation to accurately label them as such to prevent accidental introduction of undesired or unwanted genes into the population. That's just professional etiquette. I think the same data should accompany sales of known pure races as well. We've got the same obligation to maintain details of purity as we do of impurity.
Here's a secret for you: Unless your animals are pure descendants of known 'locality specific' specimens their purity is already highly questionable anyway.
"Hybrids are trash". Yeah, whatever...... Sharing such a factually presented opinion carries zero weight with anybody. You should have joined the high school debate team, you might have learned a thing or two about presenting your point. Foreign car enthusiasts have been saying bad things about domestic vehicles for years now, and vice versa. Come to think of it, so have Ford vs. Chevy owners. Guess what: Nobody cares about your sticker showing some kid wearing a Ford shirt urinating on a Chevy when they are shopping for a new vehicle. There's millions of happy owners of all these brands of vehicles.
Moral of the story: If you don't like it don't buy it. This is America and that's your freedom of choice. So is expressing your opinion, just try not to sound like an idiot or waste other people's time when doing so….
* No offense You Guys or hard feelings….* but I wonder sometimes why they even open up the thread…..just to *****?
One last note, I myself did not breed these but, took them on as an interesting project from start to finish and LEARN from the experiences with them . So far the experience has been awesome and the torts are just wonderful little creatures.
Enjoy~


A few weeks old ( notcice the egg tooth)
2Lep.jpg

Almost 1.5 years....current
wh22.jpg
wh28.jpg
wh27.jpg
wh26.jpg
wh24.jpg


JD~
"JUST MY OPINION"
I honestly think they are Sweeeet!
 

wellington

Well-Known Member
Moderator
10 Year Member!
Tortoise Club
Joined
Sep 6, 2011
Messages
40,448
Location (City and/or State)
Chicago, Illinois, USA
I would never abandon a hybrid/mutt just for that reason, or any reason. However I do not believe in mixing. It isn't natural and it is man made. I do not look down on someone that does it, however I don't like it either. Your torts are cutties and I wouldn't not by one, I just would never breed one. Yes I realize my dog started out somewhere long ago as a mutt. I would have been just as happy, with one that was never a hybrid, as I wouldn't know any better anyway. I still would never purposely breed for a mutt, or now as they are called designer dogs, ugh. My opinion and it always has been and always will be :D
 

JoesMum

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2011
Messages
21,588
Location (City and/or State)
Kent, South East England
wellington said:
I would never abandon a hybrid/mutt just for that reason, or any reason. However I do not believe in mixing. It isn't natural and it is man made. I do not look down on someone that does it, however I don't like it either. Your torts are cutties and I wouldn't not by one, I just would never breed one. Yes I realize my dog started out somewhere long ago as a mutt. I would have been just as happy, with one that was never a hybrid, as I wouldn't know any better anyway. I still would never purposely breed for a mutt, or now as they are called designer dogs, ugh. My opinion and it always has been and always will be :D

I hold very similar views. I don't hold against the ones that exist, but don't believe in crossing species.

Dogs are slightly different. The breeds have come about by selective breeding to preserve certain traits.

With torts you are mixing species that are more distantly related.
 

dmmj

The member formerly known as captain awesome
Moderator
10 Year Member!
Joined
Aug 15, 2008
Messages
19,752
Location (City and/or State)
CA
I think you are mixing apples and oranges here comparing dog breeds to different tortoise species.
If you can't tell I am also against it, but no law is being broken, so I won't complain.
 

N2TORTS

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
8,803
dmmj said:
I think you are mixing apples and oranges here comparing dog breeds to different tortoise species.
If you can't tell I am also against it, but no law is being broken, so I won't complain.
I use the dog reference as most people in here... have 0 experience with any other exotics , rather it be fish , birds, mammals or other herps. For the most part I think it’s a joke to keep a tortoise in an aquarium! ( Geee how many forum members do that? ) …..Ya think that’s natural ? Not Man Made?….
You guys are funny…….:p
"Dogs are slightly different. The breeds have come about by selective breeding to preserve certain traits." ......Joe's mum I think you missed that point in the post ...
 

Baoh

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
1,827
Location (City and/or State)
Florida
Do not sweat it, man. Your animals are healthy and you enjoy them. I certainly enjoy seeing your photographs of them and learning more about them by proxy.
 

EricIvins

Active Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
1,183
I don't think the F1s from this group are going to retain much on the Leopard side..........I would like to see how some of the other unrelated F1s that favored the Leopard side are coming along........There have been at least 3-4 clutches produced to date, and I know one of those clutches did have 50% or more that did favor the Leopard side........

Personally, I think these will turn out to be a very popular "Pet" Tortoise if they tend to stay smaller..........
 

Jacob

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2011
Messages
3,147
Location (City and/or State)
California
Dont worry everyone has there opinion on it, hey its not illegal right :cool:
 

Glasswalker

Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2012
Messages
59
Location (City and/or State)
Pittsburgh
I don't feel too strongly one way or the other about it. As long as the parents aren't forced into doing the deed and the offspring are healthy, that's all that matters. Your torts look great, how big do you think they'll get?
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
54,442
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
JD, It saddens me that you feel the need to do this. It shows me that you feel that comments against the practice of hybridization are personal comments against you. They are not. You are a respected member here, and with the exception of these two animals, I thoroughly enjoy your posts, comments and pictures. I am not against you, I am against the practice of hybridization. I don't like it in snakes, fish, flowers, birds, tortoises, or any other species. I don't feel that it should be allowed to happen, and I don't feel that people should try to make it happen. I also feel that the people who do participate in it, by accident or by design, should not be rewarded financially for it, or in any other way. There is absolutely nothing hysterical about that.

Comparing tortoise species to mutt dogs is not even apples and oranges. Its apples and bacon cheeseburgers with grilled onions. Because we don't know the exact origin of the domestic dog from 10,000 or more years ago, is not a good reason to go ahead and start making hybrids all willy nilly in 2012. One thing has nothing to do with the other. Same with the domestic cat. This is not hypocrisy. It is two unrelated things. Dog breeds are all the same species, whatever the origin was. I am not against selectively breeding for color morphs within a species. Like what we see in leopard geckos, ball pythons, and corn snakes. Got no problem with that. Got no problem with the hypo red foots, the sunset hypo leopards, or the Ivory sulcatas. These are all members of the same species and being captive bred. Awsome! Have fun with that. Not the same thing as mixing and breeding two different species.

Granted most of the leopards and sulcatas in this country are mixed mutts made up of individuals from all over the range. I find this saddening, and it was a mistake every time this happened. It is a mistake when it happens today. Because it happens or has happened is not justification to go ahead and make a bad situation worse. There are a few people around the country who have leopards and sulcatas from known and distinct locations and they maintain these "pure" populations. I find this honorable, and worthy of great praise. What we have in this country is it. No more are coming in. There more we mess up what we have, the worse off the situation will become. It is my opinion that allowing hybrids and celebrating them messes things up even worse.

I don't know what your intention was with this thread. It seems to me you are defending your actions. I wish that was not the case as you have not been attacked and therefore need not defend yourself. I think we all know where the various parties stand on this issue. This thread will not change anyone's mind and neither will my reply to it. Its a free country and I respect your right to do as you wish. I do not ordinarily comment on your threads showing these tortoises because it would be pointless, impolite and inflammatory. You already know where I stand and there is no reason to beat a dead horse. I only comment here because you made some points and you wish to debate the issue. I don't think that this is a debate that anyone can "win" as this subject is a matter of opinion.
 

Neltharion

Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Jun 10, 2011
Messages
253
Location (City and/or State)
Northern California
Tom said:
JD, It saddens me that you feel the need to do this. It shows me that you feel that comments against the practice of hybridization are personal comments against you. They are not. You are a respected member here, and with the exception of these two animals, I thoroughly enjoy your posts, comments and pictures. I am not against you, I am against the practice of hybridization. I don't like it in snakes, fish, flowers, birds, tortoises, or any other species. I don't feel that it should be allowed to happen, and I don't feel that people should try to make it happen. I also feel that the people who do participate in it, by accident or by design, should not be rewarded financially for it, or in any other way. There is absolutely nothing hysterical about that.

Comparing tortoise species to mutt dogs is not even apples and oranges. Its apples and bacon cheeseburgers with grilled onions. Because we don't know the exact origin of the domestic dog from 10,000 or more years ago, is not a good reason to go ahead and start making hybrids all willy nilly in 2012. One thing has nothing to do with the other. Same with the domestic cat. This is not hypocrisy. It is two unrelated things. Dog breeds are all the same species, whatever the origin was. I am not against selectively breeding for color morphs within a species. Like what we see in leopard geckos, ball pythons, and corn snakes. Got no problem with that. Got no problem with the hypo red foots, the sunset hypo leopards, or the Ivory sulcatas. These are all members of the same species and being captive bred. Awsome! Have fun with that. Not the same thing as mixing and breeding two different species.

Granted most of the leopards and sulcatas in this country are mixed mutts made up of individuals from all over the range. I find this saddening, and it was a mistake every time this happened. It is a mistake when it happens today. Because it happens or has happened is not justification to go ahead and make a bad situation worse. There are a few people around the country who have leopards and sulcatas from known and distinct locations and they maintain these "pure" populations. I find this honorable, and worthy of great praise. What we have in this country is it. No more are coming in. There more we mess up what we have, the worse off the situation will become. It is my opinion that allowing hybrids and celebrating them messes things up even worse.

I don't know what your intention was with this thread. It seems to me you are defending your actions. I wish that was not the case as you have not been attacked and therefore need not defend yourself. I think we all know where the various parties stand on this issue. This thread will not change anyone's mind and neither will my reply to it. Its a free country and I respect your right to do as you wish. I do not ordinarily comment on your threads showing these tortoises because it would be pointless, impolite and inflammatory. You already know where I stand and there is no reason to beat a dead horse. I only comment here because you made some points and you wish to debate the issue. I don't think that this is a debate that anyone can "win" as this subject is a matter of opinion.

I second everything that Tom has stated.
 

N2TORTS

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
8,803
Tom don’t be sad …flowers are on the way~ ( not hybrids either) ;)
I didn’t start this thread to debate but to educate!…after reading another post I wanted to start a new thread to understand the hybrids from a scientific point of view not an *OPINION*. Yes, some of the comments made do come off as offensive, but I guess I’m just a sensitive sort of guy, but I DO know my tortoises and other exotics close to my 50th year. I personally do not promote Hybridization in tortoises but understand the true possibilities’ of it (rather man made or in the wild ) and it fascinates me to see the outcome in genetic form. I’m not the popular guy in town that has a crowd who follows my every word. I’ve seen this for years in here with the redfoots and cherries. While knowingly I own some of the best in the country and all the silly arguments of where they came from , cherries vs. redfoots the 80’s shipment bla bla bla .. Funny thing any most of us have the same gene lines in all torts from the last 30 years with captive bred animals. I took these guys on trade only weeks old and thought “ heck why not”? …and to date they are simply awesome with tons of personality and showing some very neat~o markings .
I wonder if they were never “ labeled” and years down the line they were posted , how many folks would figure them out?

( yes I know it's in the debate section , but I knew it would grab your attention :D) ...
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
54,442
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
JD, Your carbonaria are all awesome, but I'm not sure I understand your point. I, like most people I think, am not sure of all the different types of redfoots and their origins. They are not one of the species I keep or study much, so I am admittedly a bit ignorant about them. As I understand it, they have all been mixed together and interbred since the 60's. Is this correct? Is this the point you were making? It is a similar situation with the leopards. I'm sad to see this with any species, and that is why I think it is so spectacular if someone has a breeding population of adults that are all from a know locality within that species range, but that is another topic...

Could you please clarify for me what you mean about the redfoots?
 

allegraf

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Jul 23, 2008
Messages
1,433
Since it is in the debate section, I agree with Tom's assessment of the reason for your post. You can't just post something and then say I didn't mean it that way. You state that you do not promote hybridization, but if I recall you have no problem exposing your cherryhead females to your hypo northern male. Maybe I am a stringent purist, but that is mixing the bloodlines unnecessarily. No one doubts your experience, it is rather your approach to "pointing out the scientific view" and expecting no reply.

Allegra
 

N2TORTS

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
8,803
Here ya go Tom. Read above perfect example....!
First the "exposing" comment is very lame and I do believe I know when my animals are in heat and mating or just in the group enclosure. So this person (yes I know who they are) breeds cherries right? Wonder if they actually know the " local" of their collection and honestly I have some of the same gene lines they do as well as Carl , Marty , Tom, Jerry ect ect ...?....Oh wait how many times have I read over and over Cherries are the same as red foots , just a group came in the 80's with exceptional head coloring so they named them Cherries...and the name stuck and demanded higher prices because honestly they are in some eyes a better looking tortoise. The only difference is locality so don’t mix them ? WTF????? Make up your mind people!

allegraf said:
Since it is in the debate section, I agree with Tom's assessment of the reason for your post. You can't just post something and then say I didn't mean it that way. You state that you do not promote hybridization, but if I recall you have no problem exposing your cherryhead females to your hypo northern male. Maybe I am a stringent purist, but that is mixing the bloodlines unnecessarily. No one doubts your experience, it is rather your approach to "pointing out the scientific view" and expecting no reply.

Allegra

Yes Miss Graf' he has spent time with some of them ......17 females
( 1 Hypo )and 2 males to be exact!
 

Madkins007

Well-Known Member
Moderator
10 Year Member!
Joined
Feb 15, 2008
Messages
5,393
Location (City and/or State)
Nebraska
Hybrids can be interesting. I think there are a couple things we need to remember in this discussion, though.

When we speak of dog, or rose, or most other kinds of hydrids, we are talking about crossing races of the target species. To put it in human terms, we are talking about breeding Caucasian and Hispanic for example.

When we speak of crossing between species, as with the Leopard and Sulcata, we are speaking more along the lines of crossing human and chimpanzee.

We often cross dogs and roses with some sort of goal in mind. We track the generations and try to reinforce whatever characteristics we want. The upside of this is a better version of the species. The downside is 'culls'- individuals that are not desirable and may in fact have some real problems.

Crossing between species* rarely happens in either nature or captivity. Most species have some sorts of barriers, behaviors, or other defenses to protect against it. When it DOES happen, it very often means that either people have set it up artificially, or that something is stressing the animals to the point that the natural systems are failing.

Crossing species bothers many people. Bioethicists debate the morality of this on several levels. To use the human x chimp idea again, you can more easily see some of the issues at the heart of the debate. If someone sets this up, are they acting ethically? Is it a 'right' thing to do to either species involved? If the cross works, the offspring is usually at least sterile and often deformed- is this ethical to do? Does the cross serve a purpose or is it more of a whim?

*- The term 'species' is getting kind of slippery as science and taxonomy progress. It is definitely a man-made concept, but its purpose is to help define the relationship between animals. It may turn out that things like Leopard and Sulcata are not as far apart as to be two different species, in which case discussing crosses for them turns to mixing races, not mixing species.

It is also interesting to note that tortoises store sperm for years and can mix old and new sperm. Therefore, the eggs can have a mix of fathers stretching back over about three years. I do not know of any research about whether this mixing makes hybrids more likely or not. It almost certainly makes it tougher to KNOW who the father of a given batch is without DNA testing.
 

N2TORTS

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
8,803
Very Well Said Mark.......and I was waiting for you to chime in. You and I might not always agree , but your very well versed on many issues and one sauve' writer~;)
I respect that~:)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
TortoiseSupply.com

New Posts

Top