OH NO A HYBRID ! MY LEPRACUTTAS

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GeoTerraTestudo

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Some factual errors here.

N2TORTS said:
The writer is blissfully unaware that this cherished pet is most likely a descendant of an intra-specific hybrid, a cross between the African Wild Cat and the Asian Wild Cat.

There is a world of difference between intraspecific hybridization, and interspecific hybridization. Hybridization between different populations of a given species may have either no impact on genetic fitness, or even enhance it due to hybrid vigor. Hybridization between different subspecies of a given species may reduce fitness if they are from very different environments (cold vs. warm, etc.), but again, fertility is usually unaffected, and may even be enhanced. In contrast, hybridization between species almost always reduces fertility, and can lead to sterility. Moreover, depending on the genetic distance, it can also lead to chronic or lethal health problems. All the different types of wildcat out there belong to a single species (Felis sylvestris), and so are able to form fully fertile offspring. Moreover, different populations and subspecies in many species are known to form zones of intergradation in the wild, where you find animals of intermediate phenotype because the two groups are naturally hybridizing on their own. Mixing them in captivity is not very different from this situation. In contrast, that is very different from the situation with lepracuttas, whose parent species (sulcata and leopard tortoise) have been isolated from each other for many millions of years.

NOTE: There are a few intergeneric hybrid cats out there in the pet trade. The Bengal cat, for example, is a hybrid of the house cat (Felis sylvestris) and the Asian leopard cat (Prionailurus bengalensis). As with many such hybrids, there are problems with fertility. Females may be fertile, but males are usually sterile (Haldane's Rule). Again, I disapprove of this cross, too.

In any event, all of this would have taken place thousands of years ago and the world is still turning.

Nobody ever said the planet would stop turning if you breed interspecific hybrids. The point is interspecific hybridization in the pet trade is bad for the animals.

Yet no dog-lover would ever consider abandoning Fido simply because he's not 100% pure Wolf!

Dogs are, with few exceptions, domesticated wolves (Canis lupus). Occasionally they have been known to hybridize with coyotes (C. latrans), and the more distantly related golden jackal (C. aureus). Northeastern wolves and coyotes have been found to have wild and domestic wolf (dog) ancestry mixed with coyote, and the southeastern red wolf has been found to be of wolf/coyote hybrid origin as well. One of the few types of captive dog known to be of interspecific origin is the Sulimov dog, which was methodically bred as an airport security sniffing dog. Other than that, the odds that "Fido," as you say, is anything but a domestic wolf, are extremely small.

Hybridization between cultivars or varieties is often used in agriculture to obtain greater vigor or growth (heterosis). The first generation often shows greatly increased vigor and a better yield primarily because many genes for recessive, often deleterious, traits from one parent are masked by corresponding dominant genes in the other parent. Many of the hybrid reptiles produced in today's marketplace also show the positive effects of hybrid vigor. Larger babies, with stronger feeding responses, are often produced.

Yes, heterosis (hybrid vigor) can be the result of cross-breeding, and it can make valuable intraspecific crosses when the offspring are fertile. Mules are famously sterile intraspecific hybrids with heterosis, which I grant may be valuable since horses and donkeys are not endangered species, and the resulting mules are healthy and valuable as work animals. But why in the heck would anyone want to breed endangered reptiles in this way? For the aesthetics? For the money? Neither reason is sufficient justification for this practice.

One of the first projects along these lines was the use of albino Ruthven's Kingsnakes to introduce the albino gene to the closely related Gray Banded Kingsnake . By carefully selecting the resulting offspring for appearance similar to the Gray Banded Kingsnake, breeders were able to produce albino specimens nearly identical to pure Gray Banded Kingsnakes.

I likewise disapprove of breeding albino animals, as well as highly altered animals with pushed-in noses, shortened limbs, etc. It's not good for the animals.

"Hybrids are trash". Yeah, whatever...... Sharing such a factually presented opinion carries zero weight with anybody. You should have joined the high school debate team, you might have learned a thing or two about presenting your point. Foreign car enthusiasts have been saying bad things about domestic vehicles for years now, and vice versa. Come to think of it, so have Ford vs. Chevy owners. Guess what: Nobody cares about your sticker showing some kid wearing a Ford shirt urinating on a Chevy when they are shopping for a new vehicle. There's millions of happy owners of all these brands of vehicles.

While I certainly never call any living being "trash," and I don't think condemning hybridization is purely a matter of opinion. Fact: hybrids often have reduced fertility, and often lack the adaptations of their parent species. Therefore, they have reduced conservation value. This is not a matter of taste. This is a matter of priorities.

Moral of the story: If you don't like it don't buy it. This is America and that's your freedom of choice. So is expressing your opinion, just try not to sound like an idiot or waste other people's time when doing so….

I disagree. What if someone told you about an abused dog in a shelter? Would you tell him, "If you don't like it, don't buy it." No, you would say, "It is wrong to abuse animals, and if you cannot care for the abused dog, at least report it to the officials." I hasten to add that, I don't think breeding interspecific (and even intergeneric) hybrid animals is as bad as beating animals. However, I do think it is a form of cruelty to bring animals into this world, knowing ahead of time that they may have problems with fertility or health. Distant hybridization may be viewed as a form of genetic infirmity, right along with albinism and dwarfism. And while animals with genetic infirmity deserve ethical treatment as much as those without, we should nevertheless make efforts to avoid bringing about their infirmity, not willfully perpetuating it.

It amazes me how much people can sell their hybrids and other anomalous animals for, when really the customer is buying damaged goods. Albinos and leucistic animals cost a lot more than pigmented animals, and yet they are at greater likelihood of blindness, deafness, and other problems. When people put two-headed snakes and turtles up for sale, the animals are snapped up very quickly ... even though they will probably die before reaching adulthood. Similarly, short-faced dogs and cats tend to snore, and short-legged dogs (and now cats, too) are likely to develop back problems. And then there's the increased risk of aggression, disability, and cancer with inbreeding. Similarly, when you're buying a hybrid, you're basically agreeing to pay more for a sterile animal, and perhaps agreeing to pay more for an animal with malformed internal organs, too. Why? For the looks? For the novelty? I don't think this is a good choice.
 

N2TORTS

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Madkins007 said:
(Off topic to hybrids, sorry!)

Art/HLogic- If I read the abstract correctly (and most of it is over my head), they found 2 DNA patterns in C. carbonaria, the red-footed tortoise, and feel that this means that there are two species represented. I could not see where they discussed where the true origins of the animals were, how many were tested, etc. but it does generally seem to support this paper:

VARGAS-RAMIREZ, Mario; Maran, Jerome; Fritz, Uwe. "Red- and yellow-footed tortoises, Chelonoidis carbonaria and C. denticulata (Reptilia: Testudines: Testudinidae), in South American savannahs and forests: do their phylogeographies reflect distinct habitats?" (http://www.fundacionbiodiversa.org/pdf/Mario/Vargas_2010_Chelonoidis.pdf )

Except that Vargas-Ramirez found 5 types.

I gotta get you to write me up a 'workingman's briefing' on genetics in general and red-footed in specific.

Oh, and what do you mean I can't use tabulata? Since it was misapplied in the first place for both reds and yellows, and no one else seems to want it, I call dibs. I doubt old Leopold Fitzinger will argue.

Of course, I could suggest C. territris, Schwigger's name from 1812. It is an even older term! Of course, Fitzinger also used 'boiei' back in 1835ish, too, didn't he? I don't like it as much for some reason, but it might work.





OK, getting back to the topic...


Bottom line- is it OK to cross-breed tortoises?
1. - Is it OK when they are of the same species but different races, color phases, regions, etc.?
1. a. ---- Does it make a difference WHY you do it? (desirable characteristics? Cool colors? Curiosity?)

2. - Is it still OK when they are different species and it takes more human intervention and possibly has a higher potential for defects- but you have lots of interesting potential as well?

Some of this will be based on your sense of ethics and morality, and we all differ in this, so let's be nice to those wrong-headed idiots that have the audacity to disagree with our stance.



I'm Trying ......:D

*There ya go Art!.......................now thats some RF History ! )
Once again Brilliant Mark!
JD~
 

EricIvins

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Tom said:
Hmm.... I can't argue this one, because you might be right. I know a few importers here on the West coast, now you've inspired me to look into it a bit more...

The only locality you'll get is Jordan......Being that it is where all the middle eastern Tortoises are shipped from.......Of course, you'll get the people that will slap a label on a Tortoise based on looks, but that isn't paramount to anything........

This is how I make a living, so I know the whole supply chain.......There are some things you may be able to get reliable locality information on, but 95% of the Reptiles in the Trade you will not.......Very few people are stupid enough to do so.......Just because these may be under-developed/third world countries, doesn't mean the collectors themselves don't visit sites like this........They do, and some of them are educated in how these markets work.......They also don't want a crew of Gringos coming over to their Country, collecting their animals, and leaving them with no choice except to resort to other, more destructive practices to keep their families fed.......
 

HLogic

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Madkins007 said:
(Off topic to hybrids, sorry!)

Art/HLogic- If I read the abstract correctly (and most of it is over my head), they found 2 DNA patterns in C. carbonaria, the red-footed tortoise, and feel that this means that there are two species represented. I could not see where they discussed where the true origins of the animals were, how many were tested, etc. but it does generally seem to support this paper:<snip>

Oh, and what do you mean I can't use tabulata? Since it was misapplied in the first place for both reds and yellows, and no one else seems to want it, I call dibs. I doubt old Leopold Fitzinger will argue.

Of course, I could suggest C. territris, Schwigger's name from 1812. It is an even older term! Of course, Fitzinger also used 'boiei' back in 1835ish, too, didn't he? I don't like it as much for some reason, but it might work.

OK, getting back to the topic...



The additional species/subspecies was a single specimen with morphology intermediate to that of red-footed & yellow-footed tortoises (i.e. it looked like a hybrid) found at the same farm. My assumption is that the animals were all collected in the general vicinity of the farm but I don't know. If that is the case, it would add a species/subspecies to the Vargas-Ramirez list.

The name "tabulata" was originally intended to describe or later applied to (I don't remember which) the red-footed tortoise. The type specimen, however, was a yellow-footed tortoise. This confusion and the redescription/renaming of the tortoise, in one of the many renaming cycles, resulted in the status of nomen illegitimum being applied to the name. The name gods won't let you use bad names... :p

...and here's a real kicker!

No one should be so adamant in your stance on hybrids. There is a theory which in short reads like this: Ancient gods were aliens. They hybridized, cloned and/or genetically manipulated hominids to produce 'mules' for use as laborers. One (or more) of the manipulations produced fertile offspring which resulted in Homo sapiens.

If true, how would it effect your views?
 

GeoTerraTestudo

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HLogic said:
No one should be so adamant in your stance on hybrids. There is a theory which in short reads like this: Ancient gods were aliens. They hybridized, cloned and/or genetically manipulated hominids to produce 'mules' for use as laborers. One (or more) of the manipulations produced fertile offspring which resulted in Homo sapiens.

If true, how would it effect your views?

I am familiar with this "Ancient Aliens" hypothesis (it is a hypothesis, not a theory), and I find it extremely implausible. Ancient technology may have been surprisingly advanced, but there is no good evidence that it came from aliens, nor is there any compelling reason to think we are the products of extraterrestrial genetic experiments. No, we evolved here just like every other animal.
 

Neal

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Tom said:
Well I can't speak for "everyone", but I can tell you what I will do. I am already doing it. I have sources for 3 different types of babcocki leopards, 1 type of South African leopard, and 1 type of sulcata that are all location specific. I am going to acquire, breed and sell babies from all of these. And I will make sure the buyers and everyone else knows what they are getting. Since many of the Testudo are still being imported, I'll bet I can do it with them too.

I believe the same thing happened with leopards as Eric is describing with Testudo. As in, they could have been collected from anywhere, but they were imported from "hubs" in certain areas. Maybe we discussed this already? I can't remember. Still, if someone has their babcocki separated by "hub' than that's as good as it gets for us. And you'll be selling all of those to me correct? :p

Sorry JD, I gotta say those leopracatas are ugly as sin. :p I say it with a smile though. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
 

StudentoftheReptile

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Ah, the neverending hybrid debate...I've been loosely following this one over the past week, and here are my thoughts:

The long and short of it is that I can totally understand and agree with both sides of the argument. I do feel that more responsibility and care should be exercised when breeding specific localities/subspecies/whatever, ESPECIALLY if the locality(s) in question are obscure, rare and/or not well-represented in captivity. I have nothing against morphs or mutations, etc, but in general, my personal appeal is to the natural "phenotype" of that animal. I think hobbyists should devote a little more focus on preserving those isolated or unique bloodlines instead of non-chalantly throwing this and that into the pot just to try and make something "cool." I really have nothing against hybrids. There's some really cool ones out there, and there's some really butt-ugly ones as well!

All that said, like others have stated, a lot of the debate stems from one's own personal code of ethics and morals. This is the captive reptile market we're talking about here, in reality, an off-shoot of the pet industry. People aren't creating kingsnake/cornsnake crosses and lepracuttas and turning them back into the wild. I saw an ad a while back of some kingsnake hybrid that blew my mind; the thing was magenta pink with neon green stripes! It looked like it would have glowed in the dark, for crying out loud. Now, some hobbyists are disgusted by that, and that's fine, but here's my point. That's an animal that will get people's attention. That's a snake that is a conversation starter and could potentially draw new blood into the hobby. Pulling out a brown and tan snake doesn't widen peoples' eyes as much anymore but showing them a stark yellow one (albino), or a pure white one, etc. can. Then explaining all the wonderful possibilites of breeding these animals and what you can get. Obviously, that's not what appeals to every reptile hobbyists, but it is still is interesting. I mean, I'm not really a ball python enthusiast, but it still blows my mind that you can breed two brown and tan snakes (Mojave x Mojave) and get a pure white one with blue eyes (leucistic).

Most of us know that most reptile hybrids are not sterile. Apparently, those genetic barriers do not seem to work the same way as they do with mammals. Now, obviously, if there is a genetic defect with the cross, I am totally against it. But many are not, and ultimately, it is not fair for me to tell someone else what they can or cannot do with their animals, whether its hybridizing, or using a different substrate than I do, or whatever. I can say "Well, I wouldn't do it" but its THEIR animals and THEIR hobby, and if they enjoy it and are labeling their animals correctly, more power to them.

To those who create and/or sell hybrids and intergrades, of course, those animals should be advertised accurately. And again, I think before the person starts pairing things up, they need to seriously evaluate the consequences of the breeding. What are their motives for doing this cross (greed or genuine curiousity)? Is the locality/species/subspecies of either parent animal well enough represented in the market that creating a hybrid is not going to significantly damage that market further?

Example: if someone was going to try to breed plowshares to radiated tortoises, I wouldn't agree with that at all, for reasons I think many of us would agree on. Breeding a Okeetee cornsnake to a CA kingsnake...I don't get too upset about. Its not like Okeetee cornsnakes or CA kingsnakes are rare or hard to breed or anything.

Neal said:
Sorry JD, I gotta say those leopracatas are ugly as sin. :p I say it with a smile though. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

LOL...I somewhat agree! I don't think they're ugly persay, but honestly, I think they just look like interesting sulcatas. I don't see very much leopard in them, and I imagine as they get larger, the sulcata in them will be more dominate. I'm just curious to see exactly how large they get.

From a marketability standpoint, that would be the only main selling point: a tortoise that looks mostly like a sulcata but doesn't grow as large? Of course, other than appearance, one just argue that if size is an issue, just to buy a leopard! :D
 

EricIvins

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Neal said:
Tom said:
Well I can't speak for "everyone", but I can tell you what I will do. I am already doing it. I have sources for 3 different types of babcocki leopards, 1 type of South African leopard, and 1 type of sulcata that are all location specific. I am going to acquire, breed and sell babies from all of these. And I will make sure the buyers and everyone else knows what they are getting. Since many of the Testudo are still being imported, I'll bet I can do it with them too.

I believe the same thing happened with leopards as Eric is describing with Testudo. As in, they could have been collected from anywhere, but they were imported from "hubs" in certain areas. Maybe we discussed this already? I can't remember. Still, if someone has their babcocki separated by "hub' than that's as good as it gets for us. And you'll be selling all of those to me correct? :p

Sorry JD, I gotta say those leopracatas are ugly as sin. :p I say it with a smile though. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

It's a shame - Right now I could get locality specific Leopards out of a few different countries if we didn't have the Heartwater BS......Some of these are different than the "Holotype" Babcocki........


StudentoftheReptile said:
Ah, the neverending hybrid debate...I've been loosely following this one over the past week, and here are my thoughts:

The long and short of it is that I can totally understand and agree with both sides of the argument. I do feel that more responsibility and care should be exercised when breeding specific localities/subspecies/whatever, ESPECIALLY if the locality(s) in question are obscure, rare and/or not well-represented in captivity. I have nothing against morphs or mutations, etc, but in general, my personal appeal is to the natural "phenotype" of that animal. I think hobbyists should devote a little more focus on preserving those isolated or unique bloodlines instead of non-chalantly throwing this and that into the pot just to try and make something "cool." I really have nothing against hybrids. There's some really cool ones out there, and there's some really butt-ugly ones as well!

All that said, like others have stated, a lot of the debate stems from one's own personal code of ethics and morals. This is the captive reptile market we're talking about here, in reality, an off-shoot of the pet industry. People aren't creating kingsnake/cornsnake crosses and lepracuttas and turning them back into the wild. I saw an ad a while back of some kingsnake hybrid that blew my mind; the thing was magenta pink with neon green stripes! It looked like it would have glowed in the dark, for crying out loud. Now, some hobbyists are disgusted by that, and that's fine, but here's my point. That's an animal that will get people's attention. That's a snake that is a conversation starter and could potentially draw new blood into the hobby. Pulling out a brown and tan snake doesn't widen peoples' eyes as much anymore but showing them a stark yellow one (albino), or a pure white one, etc. can. Then explaining all the wonderful possibilites of breeding these animals and what you can get. Obviously, that's not what appeals to every reptile hobbyists, but it is still is interesting. I mean, I'm not really a ball python enthusiast, but it still blows my mind that you can breed two brown and tan snakes (Mojave x Mojave) and get a pure white one with blue eyes (leucistic).

Most of us know that most reptile hybrids are not sterile. Apparently, those genetic barriers do not seem to work the same way as they do with mammals. Now, obviously, if there is a genetic defect with the cross, I am totally against it. But many are not, and ultimately, it is not fair for me to tell someone else what they can or cannot do with their animals, whether its hybridizing, or using a different substrate than I do, or whatever. I can say "Well, I wouldn't do it" but its THEIR animals and THEIR hobby, and if they enjoy it and are labeling their animals correctly, more power to them.

To those who create and/or sell hybrids and intergrades, of course, those animals should be advertised accurately. And again, I think before the person starts pairing things up, they need to seriously evaluate the consequences of the breeding. What are their motives for doing this cross (greed or genuine curiousity)? Is the locality/species/subspecies of either parent animal well enough represented in the market that creating a hybrid is not going to significantly damage that market further?

Example: if someone was going to try to breed plowshares to radiated tortoises, I wouldn't agree with that at all, for reasons I think many of us would agree on. Breeding a Okeetee cornsnake to a CA kingsnake...I don't get too upset about. Its not like Okeetee cornsnakes or CA kingsnakes are rare or hard to breed or anything.

Neal said:
Sorry JD, I gotta say those leopracatas are ugly as sin. :p I say it with a smile though. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

LOL...I somewhat agree! I don't think they're ugly persay, but honestly, I think they just look like interesting sulcatas. I don't see very much leopard in them, and I imagine as they get larger, the sulcata in them will be more dominate. I'm just curious to see exactly how large they get.

From a marketability standpoint, that would be the only main selling point: a tortoise that looks mostly like a sulcata but doesn't grow as large? Of course, other than appearance, one just argue that if size is an issue, just to buy a leopard! :D




The way I see it - If I can have a Tortoise with a Sulcata personality, but not the size or destructive tendencies of a Sulcata, that would be a perfect "PET" Tortoise for alot of people........

I've had my fair share of Leopards that were very outgoing, and some that were very shy.......By comparison, the number of shy Sulcatas I've had is exponentially lower......Either way it would be a "win win" for the PET market ( NOT the Breeder or Professional Hobbiest market - 2 completely different market entities, with two completely different objectives )......
 

Madkins007

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HLogic said:
No one should be so adamant in your stance on hybrids. There is a theory which in short reads like this: Ancient gods were aliens. They hybridized, cloned and/or genetically manipulated hominids to produce 'mules' for use as laborers. One (or more) of the manipulations produced fertile offspring which resulted in Homo sapiens.

If true, how would it effect your views?

Actually- it would make me even more of a believer in the idea that crossing different species is not a great idea when done artificially. If this is true (and I really doubt it is just for the record), then some supposedly intelligent creatures made themselves some genetically manipulated pets/slaves, and goofed when some started to breed (man that sounds like the plot of Jurassic Park, doesn't it?)

Once we got to breeding successfully, we acted pretty much like an invasive species and just sort of took over. While we as a species have done some cool and amazing things, I don't think anyone would claim that we are 100% beneficial.
 

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N2TORTS said:
I didn’t start this thread to debate but to educate!…


I think these animals are interesting, perhaps solely from the standpoint of watching to see if they exhibit a combination of each of the parent's behaviours. Hazarding a guess, I'm going to say they will be burrowers, at the least.

What does one do with them in the long term, given there isn't anything to be gained from breeding them. Breed them to each other? meh. Breed them back to leopard or sulcata? meh. Never allow them to breed anything? meh. Seems they are a fun novelty, and a dead end, all in one.
 

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I've read this thread very carefully instead of looking at the photos and commenting specifically about the animals as I did in my previous post.
I don't understand the point of this thread. to wit, The opening post purports to educate us on the hybrid subject, appatrently so as to bring us up to the level of knowledge the opening poster insinuates he possess. Oddly, however, the hybrid knowledge conferred on us in the opening post appears to be a plagiarism of Niland.

Attached is a photo of true locality redfoot tortoises. These guys in the photo are descended from animals directly imported from the Grenada Islands about sixteen plus years ago. Pure Grenada Island locality.

IMG_2158.jpg
 

N2TORTS

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bfmorris said:
Attached is a photo of true locality redfoot tortoises. These guys in the photo are descended from animals directly imported from the Grenada Islands about sixteen plus years ago. Pure Grenada Island locality.

Dont you mean " Introduced" ?.....there is no such thing as "locality redfoots" in Grenada.
 

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N2TORTS said:
bfmorris said:
Attached is a photo of true locality redfoot tortoises. These guys in the photo are descended from animals directly imported from the Grenada Islands about sixteen plus years ago. Pure Grenada Island locality.

Dont you mean " Introduced" ?.....there is no such thing as "locality redfoots" in Grenada.

No, I don't mean that, and yes there is, until proven otherwise**. The original animals were collected from the wild on that island, as adults.


**An Annotated Checklist of the Amphibians and Reptiles of St. Vincent, West Indies Michael L. Treglia Department of Natural Resources, Cornell University, Ithaca, New York 14853, USA

**VINKE, Thomas and Sabine; Vetter, Holger and Susane. "South American Tortoises, Chelonian Library Vol. 3 2008
 

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bfmorris said:
I've read this thread very carefully instead of looking at the photos and commenting specifically about the animals as I did in my previous post.
I don't understand the point of this thread.

This thread had inspired my curiosity. I took the time to read up on hybrids, not just in reptiles but other animals as well. You might find these articles interesting:

http://www.reptilechannel.com/lizards/breeding-lizards/gold-dust-day-geckos.aspx

http://feistyhome.phpwebhosting.com/hybrids.htm

http://www.sydneycichlid.com/cichlid-hybrids.htm

http://cichlidresearch.com/hybrids.html

http://jason-parent.suite101.com/ligers-and-tigons-hybrid-big-cats-a152649
 

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Neltharion said:
bfmorris said:
I've read this thread very carefully instead of looking at the photos and commenting specifically about the animals as I did in my previous post.
I don't understand the point of this thread.

This thread had inspired my curiosity. I took the time to read up on hybrids, not just in reptiles but other animals as well. You might find these articles interesting:

http://www.reptilechannel.com/lizards/breeding-lizards/gold-dust-day-geckos.aspx

http://feistyhome.phpwebhosting.com/hybrids.htm

http://www.sydneycichlid.com/cichlid-hybrids.htm

http://cichlidresearch.com/hybrids.html

http://jason-parent.suite101.com/ligers-and-tigons-hybrid-big-cats-a152649

I personally don't find them interestesting at all, because of the fact that its all opinionated, biased drivel that doesn't help or guide anyone.......

Someone who wants to do the reasearch should go to an academic database and go from there.......Being able to access peer reviewed literature that presents a valid argument or compare/contrast is the way to go..........
 

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When I started this thread it wasn’t to start a debate ( guess I used the wrong section to post them under maybe should have used discussion header), nor my advocating Hybrid's. It was simply to share two torts that I had a chance to obtain during a trade. Being that I like something different than the norm , I was excited to see them in person at 3weeks of age . I simply thought, wow this would be neat to document their upbringing/stats and various changes that will occur as they grow
( since not too many of these are around …that I know of) . I can remember 7 years back when at a major So. Cal. Herp expo, there was the " first set" to be viewed by the public in my area , which is pretty darn big. The line was a mile long to see them , and yes they were for sale ....of course a pretty penny. I had always wondered if the two would or could mate since I've both species for well over 25 years. As pointed out ( by others) I complied/used other opinions on the subject to help what might or could ( living proof) if they had a chance to mate. In the wild or captivity . I never meant this to get so darn ugly , but a lot has been learned by many I would imagine. With that said , I still think they are really cool and becoming very interesting as they mature. Plus the fact one of them has the most out going personality I have seen in young tortoises'. You can be sure I won’t post these guys again , and they will remain the
" Enigma" or thorn in my back as viewed by others.
Happy~tort~N
~peace~
JD~
 

Baoh

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N2TORTS said:
You can be sure I won’t post these guys again , and they will remain the
" Enigma" or thorn in my back as viewed by others.
Happy~tort~N
~peace~
JD~

I am sorry you feel this way, but thank you for having shared what you already have.
 

Yvonne G

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JD:

I think you hit the nail on the head...you posted in the wrong section. It really isn't a debate, but that's the section it is in.

I hope you continue to share pictures of your Lepracuttas. I'm very interested in watching them grow, as are many of our members. No one is thinking any less of YOU because you have the dreaded hybred tortoises. We have strong feelings about the subject one way or the other, but not against you personally or the fact that you own them.

In a couple months I hope to see more pictures of them, but posted in the Tortoise Photo section. Pretty please???
 
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