OH NO A HYBRID ! MY LEPRACUTTAS

Status
Not open for further replies.

dmarcus

Active Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2011
Messages
9,037
Location (City and/or State)
Las Vegas, NV
I for one do enjoy seeing the photo's as they grow and hope you will continue to share them with us!!!
 

Neltharion

Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Jun 10, 2011
Messages
253
Location (City and/or State)
Northern California
EricIvins said:
I personally don't find them interestesting at all, because of the fact that its all opinionated, biased drivel that doesn't help or guide anyone.......

Someone who wants to do the reasearch should go to an academic database and go from there.......Being able to access peer reviewed literature that presents a valid argument or compare/contrast is the way to go..........

While there are statements of opinions by the writers of those articles, there are many statements that are factual.

You don't find them interesting, and in your own opinion think its 'drivel that doesn't help or guide anyone', you're entitled that opinion I couldn't care less. Others might find viewpoints from other areas of the pet hobby interesting. I don't agree with some of the opinions made by some of the writers, I still find it interesting to read what others have to say, despite some divergent opinions.

A simple google search, minus the wiki, yahoo answers, and ehow sites; and those are the type of articles that predominantly showed up. I specifically was looking for other areas of the pet industry, since these hybrid discussions have seemed to focus on the animal keeping industry.




Baoh said:
I recommend performing personal research with a review of actual scientific research when possible.

Here is one option.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/

I had actually read that one too. Nice piece of scientific reading. But like I said in a prior response, I was specifically looking for articles related to hybrids within the context of the pet industry.
 

Baoh

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
1,827
Location (City and/or State)
Florida
Neltharion said:
Baoh said:
I recommend performing personal research with a review of actual scientific research when possible.

Here is one option.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/

I had actually read that one too. Nice piece of scientific reading. But like I said in a prior response, I was specifically looking for articles related to hybrids within the context of the pet industry.

That one what? I linked to a database, not an article. It is not a piece of scientific reading. It is an electronic library in which scientific articles, studies, and other literature may be found.

This thread had inspired my curiosity. I took the time to read up on hybrids, not just in reptiles but other animals as well. You might find these articles interesting:

That does not specifically request information as relating to hybrids in the pet industry and you did not say so in a prior response in this thread. Perhaps in another thread such a thing was mentioned, though. I am only speaking to this one.
 

bfmorris

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2011
Messages
106
Neltharion said:
bfmorris said:
I've read this thread very carefully instead of looking at the photos and commenting specifically about the animals as I did in my previous post.
I don't understand the point of this thread.

This thread had inspired my curiosity. I took the time to read up on hybrids, not just in reptiles but other animals as well. You might find these articles interesting:

http://www.reptilechannel.com/lizards/breeding-lizards/gold-dust-day-geckos.aspx

http://feistyhome.phpwebhosting.com/hybrids.htm

http://www.sydneycichlid.com/cichlid-hybrids.htm

http://cichlidresearch.com/hybrids.html

http://jason-parent.suite101.com/ligers-and-tigons-hybrid-big-cats-a152649

Why would you think I'd find them interesting? My point above, was that the opening post is plagiarism.



emysemys said:
JD:

I think you hit the nail on the head...you posted in the wrong section. It really isn't a debate, but that's the section it is in.

I hope you continue to share pictures of your Lepracuttas. I'm very interested in watching them grow, as are many of our members. No one is thinking any less of YOU because you have the dreaded hybred tortoises. We have strong feelings about the subject one way or the other, but not against you personally or the fact that you own them.

In a couple months I hope to see more pictures of them, but posted in the Tortoise Photo section. Pretty please???


I second this, and speaking for myself I don't have strong feelings one way or the other about hybrids; I see them as just a novelty. I'm am very curious, however, to see these develop and I'd like to know if they end up being diggers.
 

Neltharion

Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Jun 10, 2011
Messages
253
Location (City and/or State)
Northern California
Baoh said:
That one what? I linked to a database, not an article. It is not a piece of scientific reading. It is an electronic library in which scientific articles, studies, and other literature may be found.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2453525/



That does not specifically request information as relating to hybrids in the pet industry and you did not say so in a prior response in this thread. Perhaps in another thread such a thing was mentioned, though. I am only speaking to this one.

The abstract is what popped up for me on search results. I browsed the rest of the database, but the abstract is what I was referring to.


The thread didn't specifically call out hybrids in the pet industry, but one of the key points of the debate centers around the impacts of these hybrids in the pet industry.

bfmorris said:
Why would you think I'd find them interesting? My point above, was that the opening post is plagiarism.

You also made these series of statements: "What does one do with them in the long term, given there isn't anything to be gained from breeding them. Breed them to each other? meh. Breed them back to leopard or sulcata? meh. Never allow them to breed anything? meh. Seems they are a fun novelty, and a dead end, all in one."

For someone that had thought out what to do with these animals and drawn the conclusion that they were a novelty and a dead end, I thought you might find the viewpoints of others on the same subject something of interest.

 

Baoh

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
1,827
Location (City and/or State)
Florida
Neltharion said:
The abstract is what popped up for me on search results. I browsed the rest of the database, but the abstract is what I was referring to.


The thread didn't specifically call out hybrids in the pet industry, but one of the key points of the debate centers around the impacts of these hybrids in the pet industry.

Surely, but my link was only to the database itself. The exchange seemed no different to me than if I told you about the Philadelphia Library and you told me "it" was an interesting book. No super-big deal, though, now that I know what you meant.

That may be the case, but you said, "But like I said in a prior response, I was specifically looking for articles related to hybrids within the context of the pet industry." If this, using "but", is meant as a counter to the high quality published data because it is not specific enough to what you were looking for, it is not justified by what you said in a prior response. You may have intended that, of course, but it was not communicated. Again, no worries now that I know what you meant.
 

StudentoftheReptile

Active Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2011
Messages
1,705
Location (City and/or State)
Alabama
N2TORTS said:
With that said , I still think they are really cool and becoming very interesting as they mature. - - - - You can be sure I won’t post these guys again , and they will remain the " Enigma" or thorn in my back as viewed by others.
Happy~tort~N
~peace~
JD~

Despite my own opinions about them, they are here now, and like you, I do find them interesting and would like to see their progress as they mature. Please do not stop posting pics of them because of the pointless bickering. Debates and arguments aside, you still have two very unique tortoises there that have a lot of growing to do, and we all love pics! :D
 

bfmorris

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2011
Messages
106
Neltharion said:
For someone that had thought out what to do with these animals and drawn the conclusion that they were a novelty and a dead end, I thought you might find the viewpoints of others on the same subject something of interest.

I see. Thanks for explaining, Neltharion, and thanks for those links.
 

Neltharion

Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Jun 10, 2011
Messages
253
Location (City and/or State)
Northern California
Baoh said:
Surely, but my link was only to the database itself. The exchange seemed no different to me than if I told you about the Philadelphia Library and you told me "it" was an interesting book. No super-big deal, though, now that I know what you meant.

That may be the case, but you said, "But like I said in a prior response, I was specifically looking for articles related to hybrids within the context of the pet industry." If this, using "but", is meant as a counter to the high quality published data because it is not specific enough to what you were looking for, it is not justified by what you said in a prior response. You may have intended that, of course, but it was not communicated. Again, no worries now that I know what you meant.

When I saw your link to the NCBI website, I assumed it was the same direct link to the abstract that came up for me on the search engine hit, and didn't realize that it was a link to the entire database.

The prior response that I am referencing is in Post 82 to ericivens, which did come after you had posted that link. In no way am I attempting to counter or discredit research data, I am merely stating that I was looking for information within a specific context which was not stated in my original post.
 

Baoh

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
1,827
Location (City and/or State)
Florida
Neltharion said:
Baoh said:
Surely, but my link was only to the database itself. The exchange seemed no different to me than if I told you about the Philadelphia Library and you told me "it" was an interesting book. No super-big deal, though, now that I know what you meant.

That may be the case, but you said, "But like I said in a prior response, I was specifically looking for articles related to hybrids within the context of the pet industry." If this, using "but", is meant as a counter to the high quality published data because it is not specific enough to what you were looking for, it is not justified by what you said in a prior response. You may have intended that, of course, but it was not communicated. Again, no worries now that I know what you meant.

When I saw your link to the NCBI website, I assumed it was the same direct link to the abstract that came up for me on the search engine hit, and didn't realize that it was a link to the entire database.

The prior response that I am referencing is in Post 82 to ericivens, which did come after you had posted that link. In no way am I attempting to counter or discredit research data, I am merely stating that I was looking for information within a specific context which was not stated in my original post.

I think we understand each other well regarding earlier points of confusion, so no worries.
 

vanillapooh1979

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
May 4, 2012
Messages
74
I would like to see the pictures. Are the photos on page one the hybrids? What do they look like now? How is interbreeding even possible? By that I mean is it naturally occuring because they are housed togther? Or did you have to manipulate this occurance? If So I am not sure I want to know the semantics. Ha. Seems odd to me that one would want to hybridize species.
 

Terry Allan Hall

Active Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2010
Messages
4,009
Location (City and/or State)
The Republic O' Tejas
dmmj said:
I want a half man half monkey :)

Seems to me that a half WOMAN/half ape would prove more...useful. :p

dmmj said:
I will settle this once and for all, with 2 words. Flying monkeys, need I say more?

flymonk.jpg
 

Moofahsa

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
May 18, 2012
Messages
15
He owns the tortoises and he can do as he pleases. I think it is very interesting, granted I am new to all of this but sheesh doesn't make sense to me that some people are pointing fingers like this is what is wrong with the world. This could potentially make a new niche market and attract more new people to the hobby!
 

Oogway

Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2012
Messages
92
Location (City and/or State)
Denmark
man shares 70% of the same DNA with slugs. I do not believe in cross-breeding, no matter how "closely" they are related.
 

Terry Allan Hall

Active Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2010
Messages
4,009
Location (City and/or State)
The Republic O' Tejas
The questions, as I see it, boils down to these:

(1) What are the odds that a Sulcata X Leopard tortoise is viable (can reproduce)?

(2) How large can one get?

(3) What health issues, if any, might result from this mating?

and, finally,

(4) how much of a market might there be for such a beast?

The answers might be:

(1) I'm assuming that it'd be like a horse/donkey mule, in that males NEVER are viable and females VERY rarely are viable, so it's unlikely to ever be a real problem.

(2) Truly nobody knows, but a guess is approximately 1/2 way between the ultimate sizes of the two species providing ancestry (so, maybe 55-60# for a really big one?) The only way to know for certain is to measure/weigh a 30-yo one, though.

(3) Probably none, what w/ "hybrid vigor", but, again, that's simply a guess.

(4) Well, when you consider how populat sulcatas have become in captivity, there may well be quite a market for these, what with the uniqueness and the fact that they won't likely get as huge as a pure sulcata...I'll further guess that ones w/ more Leopard-like markings and (presumably) size will be more valued.

OTOH, because breeding them is so 'iffy", and because the Xs are extremely unlikely to ever go beyond the first generation (again, like horse/donkey mules), I'm inclined to think they'll never become particulatily common...

Just some thoughts.

50390030-med.jpg

A Pardalis/sulcata X hatchling
 

GeoTerraTestudo

Active Member
5 Year Member
Joined
May 7, 2011
Messages
3,311
Location (City and/or State)
Broomfield, Colorado
Terry Allan Hall said:
The questions, as I see it, boils down to these:

(1) What are the odds that a Sulcata X Leopard tortoise is viable (can reproduce)?

Note: viability of a hybrid refers to its ability to lead a long, healthy life as an individual. This is separate from fertility, which refers to the hybrid's ability to reproduce.

(1) I'm assuming that it'd be like a horse/donkey mule, in that males NEVER are viable and females VERY rarely are viable, so it's unlikely to ever be a real problem.

This is known as Haldane's Rule, in which the heterogametic sex is more likely to be sterile as a hybrid. In mammals, females have two X chromosomes, and males have one X and one Y. Reptiles, however, have environmental sex determination, with higher temperatures leading to females in chelonians (and to males in all other reptiles). Thus, Haldane's Rule might not apply.

Overall, regardless of chromosome overlap, it's the amount of gene overlap that really matters. Thus, if two tortoises have enough different gene loci, then their offspring would probably be unviable or infertile.

(3) Probably none, what w/ "hybrid vigor", but, again, that's simply a guess.

Again, depends on the genetic distance. A hybrid between two closely related tortoise species, even if infertile, would probably be healthy or even vigorous as an individual. The farther out you go, the more likely it is that the offspring will not be viable.
 

Terry Allan Hall

Active Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2010
Messages
4,009
Location (City and/or State)
The Republic O' Tejas
GeoTerraTestudo said:
Terry Allan Hall said:
The questions, as I see it, boils down to these:

(1) What are the odds that a Sulcata X Leopard tortoise is viable (can reproduce)?

Note: viability of a hybrid refers to its ability to lead a long, healthy life as an individual. This is separate from fertility, which refers to the hybrid's ability to reproduce.

(1) I'm assuming that it'd be like a horse/donkey mule, in that males NEVER are viable and females VERY rarely are viable, so it's unlikely to ever be a real problem.

This is known as Haldane's Rule, in which the heterogametic sex is more likely to be sterile as a hybrid. In mammals, females have two X chromosomes, and males have one X and one Y. Reptiles, however, have environmental sex determination, with higher temperatures leading to females in chelonians (and higher temps leading to males in crocodilians and squamates). Thus, Haldane's Rule might not apply.

Overall, regardless of chromosome overlap, it's the amount of gene overlap that really matters. Thus, if two tortoises have enough different gene loci, then their offspring would probably be unviable or infertile.

(3) Probably none, what w/ "hybrid vigor", but, again, that's simply a guess.

Again, depends on the genetic distance. A hybrid between two closely related tortoise species, even if infertile, would probably be healthy or even vigorous as an individual. The farther out you go, the more likely it is that the offspring will not be viable.

You talk "science nerd" really good! :cool:

And it seems we pretty much agree that we'll likely never see many "LEPRACUTTAS"...for those reasons.

Now, Xing a sulcatta w/ say, an American Desert or European species, resulting in a "sulcatoid" that never gets over 10#, but keeps the sulcata personality, could be kinda cool, but short of DNA splicing, is pretty unlikely!

Fortunately, there already is such a delightful species, and I've got 4 of 'em! :p
 

Ariele

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
May 26, 2012
Messages
6
Location (City and/or State)
Phx, Arizona
This is my first time in this Hybrid form, & I honestly had no idea hybrids existed in the tortoise world! I am FASCINATED now! Thanks for sharing this information. Great details!
 

thea lester

Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2012
Messages
148
Location (City and/or State)
New Orleans, LA
I absolutely love your post about hybridization; I learned a lot. Anyhow, forgive my ignorance but what is a lepracutta? Sulcatta and Leopard Tortoise? I keep boxies. Thea
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
TortoiseSupply.com

New Posts

Top