morals

[Maggie Cummings]

Lucy and Desi Arnez were the "couple" of the '50s. They were married in real life and on their TV show but the censors made them sleep in twin beds. They couldn't be shown in the same bed. Times have changed tons since then.
Have you ever watched the Grammy's? Bands that make millions of dollars can't be bothered to dress decently, take a bath, run a comb thru their hair and their acceptance speeches are so interspersed with bad language that all you can hear is...and so bleep and bleep and then bleep. Can't they even be bothered to clean up their mouths in front of millions of viewers? Please will someone cover up Mariah Carey's phony boobs! They don't even look good.
I was born in San Francisco and raised there in the '60s. I spent a heck of a lot of time in the Haight. I was kewl...I got kicked out of school in the 9th grade and had my first child at 16. I believe I know firsthand what happened to the morals of today; I think that drugs, lack of education and lack of respect is a good part of what's "wrong" today.
I spent most of my life with a red neck biker who had old fashioned morals and made my sons go to school, gave them chores and taught them to respect others, while he supported us by making and selling illegal drugs and stolen motorcycle parts.
I am guilty of using 4 letter words when I am talking one on one with a friend, but I would never talk like that in public and have been known to tell strangers to watch their language.
I think the downfall or whatever you call it started in the '60s with drugs. I feel very lucky I came out of it with most of my brain cells. Both of my sons have grown to be really nice men. I am very proud of them. We always make jokes about sex drugs and rock and roll, but that's exactly what's wrong with the world today...

 

[dmmj]

Maybe it comes dowm to a matter of respect, when i was a child every single adult I met I was told by my paretns to address them as mr and mrs. such ans such until i was given permission to addresss them by their first names. I am amazed by the number of kids that I meet for the firsttime and they just say what's up david instead of hello mr jones.

---

Re: swear words I once heard them referred to as word enhancers.

 

[alfiethetortoise]

I agree, DMMJ, it's all about respect. And also with Stephanie - children learn from you, if you dont tell them no,or teach them another way to behave this is why they end up like this!

My friend has a little boy, aged 4. He thinks its ok to call adults 'stupid', he answers back, he will hit other children to the floor if they take a toy he wants, and he will throw wooden balls around other peoples living rooms, has no manners, he wants and demands everything and tantrums if he doesnt get it, he has no respect for others. His mum thinks his miss behaviour comes from school. He has been in school one term. The reality is that he isn't diciplined effectively. She thinks his cheek is good because it shows he has personality.... then gets annoyed when he miss behaves.

Now, i dont want to sound big headed but Ava is not yet two. She says please and thank you to everything (with encouragement sometimes), will put her toys away when she has finished with them. She will say hello to people on the street. She doesn't push other children in tantrum if they take her toy, she asks for it back nicely and if they dont comply she will tell an adult. She always eats her dinner. Sure she has had a tantrum, she has been sat on the naughty step, she has gone without a pudding. No one is perfect. But if you show children manners, self respect, perseverence and encouragement they will show the same things in return.

 

[Stephanie Logan]

But if you show children manners, self respect, perseverence and encouragement they will show the same things in return.

So true, Brooke, so true. We parents are not perfect, either, but must try to live by example as much as possible, because every person looks in the mirror one day and realizes, "My God, I have become my mother (or father)!! This thought horrified me when I was 18, but now I'm very proud to be like my mom, and I've told her so many times.

Maggie, have you ever been interviewed by documentary makers? What a childhood that must have been, on Ground Zero of the cultural revolution. That decade was marked by idealism and a definable philosophy (anti-war, anti-establishment, anti-authoritarianism, pro-freedom, especially the freedom to have sex without fearing pregnancy (B.C. pill came out in 1962, I believe) freedom to have long hair and defy societal norms without being stereotyped as a criminal or a slacker, etc. Of course, there was an upside to each of these elements of cultural evolution, as well as a downside. By the 70s, when I grew up, we were still doing the sex, drugs and rock-n-roll thing (it was one of our toasts in college ), but on auto-pilot, there was no underlying meaning to any of it, and it was not good. I was lucky enough to have a healthy supply of brain cells, and always took personal pride in being a good student despite my self-destructive habits. By the time I graduated (early) from college, I was more than ready to leave all that trash behind as I happily drove out of Texas forever. (No offense to Texans, I was born in Midland but raised in Colorado till we have to move to San Antonio for my dad's geology job--I was in 8th grade so it was a tough time to move--I never had many friends as kids there already had their friends, and I never could adapt to the hot and humid climate--I went to UT-Austin for undergrad and loved that college/party/music town but was ready for cooler climes once I finished ).

I think every generation tries to be better parents than the previous generation, and that's the way it should be.

Also, there's a famous historical passage of a senator whose teenage son is drving him nuts, cares only about his friends, neglects his studies, spends hours looking in the mirror to get his hair just right, doesn't respect his elders, etc....and it was a Roman senator from the century before Christ, so "the more things change, the more they stay the same!"

 

[terryo]

OT
"Also, there's a famous historical passage of a senator whose teenage son is drving him nuts, cares only about his friends, neglects his studies, spends hours looking in the mirror to get his hair just right, doesn't respect his elders, etc....and it was a Roman senator from the century before Christ, so "the more things change, the more they stay the same!"

I lopve how you always interject a little tid-bit of history into your posts.....and they are so interesting. If you ever decide to write a book, I will be on line to buy it.

 

[Kadaan]

I'm worried about todays "children of the electronic age".

Kids or young adults, text rather than actually speak, they carry a game with them to keep the occupied, movies and tv are perceived as reality, pirating movies, girls have their own electronic friends, all this to avoid human interaction.

Mom and Dad, Dad and Dad, Mom and Mom, used the tv as a babysitter.

The inability to interact affects the way people react to each other. Book smart means nothing when the person is unable to relate their feelings or speak out without going postal.

Yeah, cuss words are just a lazy way to express feelings.

FYI- the taste of soap probably hasn't changed much since I came home from school and flung the f-word around like an empty rum bottle, and I was four.

A lot of that sounds more like parenting than morals. My parents took away my Nintendo for a school quarter when I was a kid if my grades were poor, and I had to raise them to get it back. Not just a day or week, the whole quarter! Swearing was not tolerated at all, we were allowed 1h of TV a night during the week, and 3 or 4 on Saturday morning. My girlfriend's daughter turns 6 this year, and she has very similar rules. She also doesn't let her daughter watch tv unless they watch it together.

The internet is also a great way to get extra human interaction, not just to avoid it. I was a VERY shy kid growing up. Being introduced to the internet in high school helped open me up. It gave me a way to talk to people without feeling as self conscious. Take this forum for example, how many of you would be able/willing to have a discussion on morals with a group of people in real life? Some of us, sure, but not nearly as many as have participated in this thread already! Besides, it's not like anti-social behavior didn't exist till the internet came out, it's just an easy thing to blame it on.

It's easy to look at the negative side of things, but for every negative there are many more positives!

 

[chadk]

Saw this posted elsewhere I thought it was relavent to this thread...


************************


While some of the outcomes are conjecture, most are not. The following scenarios are based on real events. Too true to believe!


HIGH SCHOOL -- 1960's vs. 2010

Scenario 1:
Jack goes quail hunting before school and then pulls into the school parking lot with his shotgun in his truck's gun rack.
1960 - Vice Principal comes over, looks at Jack's shotgun, goes to his car and gets his shotgun to show Jack..
2010 - School goes into lock down, FBI called, Jack hauled off to jail and never sees his truck or gun again. Counselors called in for traumatized students and teachers.

Scenario 2:
Johnny and Mark get into a fist fight after school.
1960 - Crowd gathers. Mark wins. Johnny and Mark shake hands and end up buddies.
2010 - Police called and SWAT team arrives -- they arrest both Johnny and Mark. They are both charged with assault and both expelled even though Johnny started it.


Scenario 3:
Jeffrey will not be still in class, he disrupts other students...
1960 - Jeffrey sent to the Principal's office and given a good paddling by the Principal. He then returns to class, sits still and does not disrupt class again.
2010 - Jeffrey is given huge doses of Ritalin. He becomes a zombie. He is then tested for ADD. The school gets extra money from the state because Jeffrey has a disability.


Scenario 4:
Billy breaks a window in his neighbor's car and his Dad gives him a whipping with his belt.
1960 - Billy is more careful next time, grows up normal, goes to college and becomes a successful businessman.
2010 - Billy's dad is arrested for child abuse. Billy is removed to foster care and joins a gang. The state psychologist is told by Billy's sister that she remembers being abused herself and their dad goes to prison. Billy's mom has an affair with the psychologist..


Scenario 5:
Mark gets a headache and takes some aspirin to school.
1960 - Mark shares his aspirin with the Principal out on the smoking dock.
2010 - The police are called and Mark is expelled from school for drug violations. His car is then searched for drugs and weapons.

Scenario 6:
Pedro fails high school English.
1960 - Pedro goes to summer school, passes English and goes to college.
2010 - Pedro's cause is taken up by state. Newspaper articles appear nationally explaining that teaching English as a requirement for graduation is racist. ACLU files class action lawsuit against the state school system and Pedro's English teacher. English is then banned from core curriculum. Pedro is given his diploma anyway but ends up mowing lawns for a living because he cannot speak English.

Scenario 7:
Johnny takes apart leftover firecrackers from the Fourth of July, puts them in a model airplane paint bottle and blows up a red ant bed.
1960 - Ants die.
2010 - ATF, Homeland Security and the FBI are all called. Johnny is charged with domestic terrorism. The FBI investigates his parents -- and all siblings are removed from their home and all computers are confiscated. Johnny's dad is placed on a terror watch list and is never allowed to fly again.


Scenario 8:
Johnny falls while running during recess and scrapes his knee. He is found crying by his teacher, Mary. Mary hugs him to comfort him.
1960 - In a short time, Johnny feels better and goes on playing...
2010 - Mary is accused of being a sexual predator and loses her job. She faces 3 years in State Prison. Johnny undergoes 5 years of therapy.

 

[terryo]

LOL OMG! It may be funny, but it's sad too....and so true!

 

[Shelly]

Scenario 4:
Billy breaks a window in his neighbor's car and his Dad gives him a whipping with his belt.
1960 - Billy grows into a violent psychopath, and regularly beats his wife and children.

That's a little more realistic.

 

[DoctorCosmonaut]

Its not hard to find a scenario based on something real, contradicting or confirming lol

 

[terryo]

Scenario 4:
Billy breaks a window in his neighbor's car and his Dad gives him a whipping with his belt.
1960 - Billy grows into a violent psychopath, and regularly beats his wife and children.

That's a little more realistic.

I "very personally" have to agree with you on that one.

 

[ChiKat]

That is very sad and true! Interesting though, thanks for sharing!!

Scenario 4:
Billy breaks a window in his neighbor's car and his Dad gives him a whipping with his belt.
1960 - Billy grows into a violent psychopath, and regularly beats his wife and children.

That's a little more realistic.

I agree with you. I don't like how abuse was viewed as the answer to problems

 

[chadk]

Give me a break. Most guys I know, including my friends, myself, my dad, his dad, and so forth all recieved spankings from the belt, the paddle, switches, hand, etc etc and it was a GOOD thing. Sure, it can be taken too far, but so can any kind of discipline.... It is just one avaliable tool for a parent among many that in some circumstances, for some kids, really works.

 

[DoctorCosmonaut]

But you can raise just as decent of kids without punishing them physically. The best example of how inappropriate this manner of punishment can be was when I was in a store and a kid hit his brother, so the mom started spanking her boy, saying "don't" *swat* "you" *swat* "know not to hit people" *swat*

---

I grew up being spanked with a wooden spoon... Didn't do a lick of good--no pun intended--my mom had to practically carry it with her everywhere. lol ...and I've seen so many children turn out perfectly without ever being physically punished for anything.

 

[chadk]

How many kids have you raised? Are you a child psychologist? Just wondering where you are coming from...?

A spanking is not equal to a kid hitting a kid. That is absurd to compare the 2. When is is ever appropriate for a brother to use any form of discipline on a sibliing, peer, or grown up? A parent is the one who disciplines.

And no, Billy punching Bobby in the nose is not the same as mom giving a few swats on the behind.

 

[DoctorCosmonaut]

I have no children. I've taken lots of psychology classes and the popular opinion amongst psychologists seems to be against spanking and other such punishments. I have a large extended family and have seen the gambit in punishments (form kids who were never spanked to kids who had their mouths washed out and belts used on them) and have had my own experience with physical punishment from parents. I think that if you raise a child right you shouldn't have to hit them (its what I've seen). Just because something has been used for generations (such as spanking, etc in my family--until my sisters started having children), doesn't mean its the best or most effective thing. Society is constantly evolving, sometimes for the worse and sometimes for the better, but overall, I'd like to think for the better. IMO spanking is draconian. I'm not saying it doesn't work, I just think you can raise a kid (any kid) just as well without ever going there, and that's better.

 

[ChiKat]

There is obviously a difference between being whipped with a belt (which was my problem with the examples given in your post) and a swat on the behind...although I do not agree with either!

I have not raised any children and I am not a child psychologist. But I do not believe in physical punishment as a method of discipline. I think there are better ways to get your message across.
Many of my relatives spanked their children and they turned out fine, it is just not a way I personally would want to discipline my kids.

eta:

I'm not saying it doesn't work, I just think you can raise a kid (any kid) just as well without ever going there, and that's better.

I agree.

 

[DoctorCosmonaut]

And the kid didn't hit the other in the nose, and when mom turns around and hits you then says "don't hit your bother" it sends a mixed signal to someone that young.

 

[Stephanie Logan]

Ugh. Why are there so many intense and complex threads on here tonight?

I have to say I spanked my kids, mostly before they were five, only rarely when time-outs and reasoning had not worked (and at the time I had read every Parents magazine cover to cover every month--they always, unequivocally, opposed physical punishment but held the somewhat laughable view that one can reason with a two-year-old having a tantrum).

I think parents have to be very careful to not cross the line into beatings and abuse, but I have to agree with Chad that in some ways our societal pendulum has swung too far to the left. There are kids in the schools I teach that are disruptive and have no respect for other students' right to learn, that I think would straighten out quickly if there was a three-strikes-and-you-get-paddled-by-the-principal policy. It could be done under measured and controlled circumstances, with waivers signed by parents, who could opt out but then risk the alternative punishment of having Billy sent home from school if he is repeatedly disruptive in class. I truly believe, based on my own upbringing and my experience in the classroom, that the mere threat of a spanking will deter most children from pushing the envelope too far.

Once my kids had been spanked a few times, they knew I meant what I said and pretty much stayed in line (the biggest threat, that would literally stop them in their tracks, was "I will tell Dad about this when he gets home"--again, not that Fred ever spanked any of them more than 5 times in their lives, but the very thought of it made them change their ways fast!)

And let me reiterate the importance of the most effective child-rearing strategy: PRAISE them when they do the RIGHT thing, reward them sometimes for exhibiting good behaviors, and you will be amazed at how hard they will try to impress you again. I use this all the time when I teach, and I hold the bar pretty high, too, and teachers tell me that their students cheer when they're told Mrs. Logan is coming to sub. So I know it works!

 

[chadk]

No it doesn't. My kids understand clearly. So did I when I was a kid.

See the OP. Note the cringing many take just for basic discipline of children. Put 2 and 2 together and you'll see a pattern... Kids who don't have any respect and so forth...