Hope everything turns ok. Theyre going to need a fecal sample so I would soak the little bugger and take the sample so they can view it under the microscope for any worms or eggs. Good luck.
Mandarin not doing so hot (lengthy post)
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tortadise said:
After a 45 minute baby food soak, no feces. Also none in the enclosure. Best I could do was get one from Mimosa after his/her soak. I hate going to the vet unprepared like this, hopefully the little nugget throws me a fecal ticket soon!
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tortadise said:
They can also get a cloacal swab, so a fecal sample isn't necessary.
Redstrike said:
As a suggestion, I would ask them to give her some fluids subcutaneously, and possibly even an injectible baytril shot. It is a very broad spectrum, yet mild medication.
jmaneyapanda said:
Fluids may be a good idea and the cloacal swab is likely going to happen if Mandarin will not go in the next few hours. I'm intrigued by the term "mild" used with baytril, all I've heard is that it's very painful for the tortoises when administered.
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Redstrike said:
It's all relative. Baytril is always my go to treatment for general malaise. Baytril is somewhat aggressive on tissue, but is a much more effective medication than most others in my opinion. By "mild", I meant it is not as aggressive towards the body systems. For example, gentamicin is typical very hard on the liver and kidney. Baytril can (and accidentally) has been overdosed massively with no ill effect. It doesnt harm the body systems as other drugs may.
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Hoping the best for you! Please keep us updated.
jmaneyapanda said:
Baytril is also very outdated and ineffective for most pathogens right now. It has been over used and abused for so long that most pathogens either have immunity or a very decreased effect. There are many good, 2nd generation Anti-Biotics out now that Baytril should be phased out completely.........
I would also caution against anyone, whether a Vet or not, giving advise to medicate an animal without Veterinary consent.......It is a bad thing to go medicate an animal without knowing what you are trying to treat.......This leads to some very dead Tortoises, or any Reptile for that matter......
Baytril is also very outdated and ineffective for most pathogens right now. It has been over used and abused for so long that most pathogens either have immunity or a very decreased effect. There are many good, 2nd generation Anti-Biotics out now that Baytril should be phased out completely.........EricIvins said:
I would also caution against anyone, whether a Vet or not, giving advise to medicate an animal without Veterinary consent.......It is a bad thing to go medicate an animal without knowing what you are trying to treat.......This leads to some very dead Tortoises, or any Reptile for that matter......
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I'm with you Eric, if I don't know that the tortoise needs an antibiotic I'm very apprehensive to give the vet the green light to do so. If they run a blood test and come back with antibodies for a particular bacterial infection, okay. Otherwise, no antibiotics are going into my baby. Antibiotics are so abused. We've become far to liberal to administer them as a preventative. They should remain a treatment for a known pathogen and the entire course should be carried out as prescribed to keep resilient strains from forming. It really gets under my skin when people have a common cold and go to the doctor for antibiotics and receive them, most likely they're symptoms are from a VIRAL infection that antibiotics cannot assist with. I won't start on this tirade but the doctor's ought to know better...
Vet visit went as well as it could, though the vet agreed with me that things are pretty up in the air. It's tough when you have a 45g hatchling and miss previous warning signs. We discussed the bullying, parasites, impaction, and septacemia. The vet was not too concerned with impaction or parasites after Mimosa's fecal came through clean. Mandarin was a great little tortoise and provided us a fresh fecal sample right as we were about to leave, waiting on the analyses for that tomorrow. I was not thrilled with idea of Baytril, but Dr. Leighton thought it would be good to provide an antibiotic incase the overlying issues were related to or exacerbating a looming bacterial infection. She was very good about it and said she would be comfortable waiting and completely understood my reluctance to administer an antibiotic. She admitted it would be difficult to obtain a blood sample and would need 1ml from a very tiny tortoise, so it would've been quite invasive, but she was willing to do so. I told her I trusted her judgement.
She was most concerned with Mandarin's drinking habits during soakings. I told her that Mandarin dunks his/her head in and drinks at almost every soaking a behavior that occurred since taking him/her out of the FedEx box. The fact that the tortoise does this and is very inactive made her suspicious of a renal complications and/or metabolic issues (not MBD, but congenital defects). She seems as worried as I am. I told her Mandarin has always been a bit finicky eating and this made her more suspicious, but she admits this could have also been related to unnoticed bullying via the other torts. They are going to run some tests from the fecal to look for renal issues as well as parasites.
Needless to say it was very excellent to get the help and advice from a medical expert that was very knowledgeable and willing to listen. She admitted that she's still learning and that often her clients know more about the species they keep than she does. The first 15 minutes of our visit consisted of me discussing current husbandry and concerns. She asked me all the right questions and was an attentive listener, reinforcing my trust in her professional opinions. For now it's 1 week of a daily Baytril shot and keeping our fingers crossed that Mandarin pulls through! I wish I could provide a more definitive diagnosis, but we really don't know.
Thanks for all your suggestions and support! I'll keep you all updated.
She was most concerned with Mandarin's drinking habits during soakings. I told her that Mandarin dunks his/her head in and drinks at almost every soaking a behavior that occurred since taking him/her out of the FedEx box. The fact that the tortoise does this and is very inactive made her suspicious of a renal complications and/or metabolic issues (not MBD, but congenital defects). She seems as worried as I am. I told her Mandarin has always been a bit finicky eating and this made her more suspicious, but she admits this could have also been related to unnoticed bullying via the other torts. They are going to run some tests from the fecal to look for renal issues as well as parasites.
Needless to say it was very excellent to get the help and advice from a medical expert that was very knowledgeable and willing to listen. She admitted that she's still learning and that often her clients know more about the species they keep than she does. The first 15 minutes of our visit consisted of me discussing current husbandry and concerns. She asked me all the right questions and was an attentive listener, reinforcing my trust in her professional opinions. For now it's 1 week of a daily Baytril shot and keeping our fingers crossed that Mandarin pulls through! I wish I could provide a more definitive diagnosis, but we really don't know.
Thanks for all your suggestions and support! I'll keep you all updated.
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EricIvins said:
I must respectfully disagree with your first part of the statement. I still feel baytril is a very viable and useful drug. There are most definitely outdated drugs (tetracycline immediately comes to mind), but, in the absence of a culture and sensitivity, it's all stabbing in the dark. What second generation meds are you referring to?
However, I do completely agree that drug use should not be cavalier. It can easily cause more problem than help. I hoped suggestion was not misconstrued. I do not condone medicate animals on a whim. However, in consulting with your vet, suggestions or recommendation can and should be fair game. In the case of baytril, it's rather moot, as it's a prescription med anyway.
Redstrike said:
Sounds like a great vet. I must agree that, in the case of a juvenile that is showing illness symptoms, you need to be very proactive.
I couldn't follow- did she take blood? It's agreed, the amount of blood needed to run blood cell counts and chemistries would be an excessive for such a small animal. So, I'm guessing not.
[/QUOTE]
Sounds like a great vet. I must agree that, in the case of a juvenile that is showing illness symptoms, you need to be very proactive.
I couldn't follow- did she take blood? It's agreed, the amount of blood needed to run blood cell counts and chemistries would be an excessive for such a small animal. So, I'm guessing not.
[/quote]
No blood work for exactly the reason you stated. It's tough when you have a hatchling this small...
Sounds like a great vet. I must agree that, in the case of a juvenile that is showing illness symptoms, you need to be very proactive.
I couldn't follow- did she take blood? It's agreed, the amount of blood needed to run blood cell counts and chemistries would be an excessive for such a small animal. So, I'm guessing not.
[/quote]
No blood work for exactly the reason you stated. It's tough when you have a hatchling this small...
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Frankly, bloodwork may not have been to valuable. I do not know of it is the case for this species, but blood value normals are not well known or cataloged for a lot of exotics. Often times, the data is so sparse that it is very difficult for vets to even interpret properly run blood samples, aside from vague generalizations. Then again, there may be a very thorough, elaborate blood normal chart. I am not at all sure for this species.
Something to consider- although captive bred, these animals are without doubt wild animals. They are not domestic. Wild animals, in general, withhold showing outward signs of illness as long as possible, as sick, impaired wild animals before easy primary targets for predators. So, if you notice poor symptoms, you need to act very fast. It is not a situation, as with people, where the animals will tell you they're not feeling well, and you can wait it out to see if you feel better. I think you're on the right course. I have my fingers crossed for you.
Something to consider- although captive bred, these animals are without doubt wild animals. They are not domestic. Wild animals, in general, withhold showing outward signs of illness as long as possible, as sick, impaired wild animals before easy primary targets for predators. So, if you notice poor symptoms, you need to act very fast. It is not a situation, as with people, where the animals will tell you they're not feeling well, and you can wait it out to see if you feel better. I think you're on the right course. I have my fingers crossed for you.
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