Mandarin not doing so hot (lengthy post)

[Redstrike]

I recently acquired a couple more cherryheads to my previous pair. The larger of the two (Mimosa) is thriving with the other two (Coagi & Rafiki); however the smallest (Mandarin) just recently took a downward turn and I'm worried I might lose him/her.

On July 19, I moved from Syracuse, NY to Maine. No doubt a stressful event for my torts. Mandarin took it pretty hard, but seemed to be coming around. S/he has always been a bit of a finiky eater and yesterday was not interested in a kiwi & squash treat, raising my concern. This morning's soak has alarmed me greater. Mandarin had little interest in opening his/her eyes and appeared very weak. I tempted the little one with Mazuri after the soak and there was no interest other than some mild sniffing with eyes still closed.

Needless to say I'm completely befuddled at this. Humidity = 70+ % temps are 80 and 85 on the warm and cool sides respectively. I've never witnessed any bullying on Mandarin from the other three, but it could have been occuring under my nose. I've been thinking of a vet visit, but in all honesty I have no idea what I could tell them and I'm not going to get jerked around with Vitamin A injections etc. Baby food soaks are on todays agenda for Mandarin.

The oldest two are approaching a year old, Mandarin and Mimosa are about 3 months old. Like I said, I'm completely stumped and really upset with myself for missing previous warning signs that Mandarin is not doing well. Have any of you had a baby that just tanks? Any help/suggestions/advice would be lovely. I'm crossing my fingers that Mandarin pulls through, but I'm pretty nervous.

 

[tortadise]

Man sorry to hear this. Hope mandarin gets better. Your temps and everything seem perfect. Could be a pre-egisting deal. Lets hope not.

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi Chris:

Set him up separately from the others and increase the temperature in the hospital habitat. Keep him quiet and a bit dark, not a real bright light. Baby food or liquid bird vitamin soaks for about a half hour every day.

Good luck.

 

[Madkins007]

I don't know what is happening, but lots of experienced red-footed keepers have had a real problem this year. Many of them seem to be younger animals that just basically stop thriving. I wonder if there may be some sort of bug going around or something.

I'd go with Yvonne's recommendations. Usually you boost temps some for sick torts. I think I would try it and see if it helps at all.

Have they been outside? While they don't bask much, good fresh air and sunshine may help as well- as long as it is not too hot and it can get to shade easily.

 

[Redstrike]

Man sorry to hear this. Hope mandarin gets better. Your temps and everything seem perfect. Could be a pre-egisting deal. Lets hope not.

Thanks, I don't know if it is congenital or not... I will say I stand behind the breeder I purchase from, I think she is the best.

Hi Chris:

Set him up separately from the others and increase the temperature in the hospital habitat. Keep him quiet and a bit dark, not a real bright light. Baby food or liquid bird vitamin soaks for about a half hour every day.

Good luck.

Thanks Yvonne, will do! I have a quarentine habitat all set up and ready to go. Mandarin is taking a sweet potato baby food soak as I type.

I don't know what is happening, but lots of experienced red-footed keepers have had a real problem this year. Many of them seem to be younger animals that just basically stop thriving. I wonder if there may be some sort of bug going around or something.

I'd go with Yvonne's recommendations. Usually you boost temps some for sick torts. I think I would try it and see if it helps at all.

Have they been outside? While they don't bask much, good fresh air and sunshine may help as well- as long as it is not too hot and it can get to shade easily.

This could be Mark, I'm at my wits end as to why I'm seeing this with Mandarin. Both Mandarin and Mimosa started off great, but something just turned and I'm sure the move was not helpful.

I took them all outside yesterday for 30 minutes and they've had previous outside excursions almost daily for 30 min to an hour. I keep a close eye on them and frequently mist them to avoid overheating, I haven't seen any signs of heat stroke from any of our excursions.

I'll keep you all posted, thanks for the help!

 

[ascott]

Set him up separately from the others and increase the temperature in the hospital habitat. Keep him quiet and a bit dark, not a real bright light. Baby food or liquid bird vitamin soaks for about a half hour every day.

Totally Ditto this.....I would get him moved out right away.

 

[Redstrike]

Set him up separately from the others and increase the temperature in the hospital habitat. Keep him quiet and a bit dark, not a real bright light. Baby food or liquid bird vitamin soaks for about a half hour every day.

Totally Ditto this.....I would get him moved out right away.

Done and done

 

[ascott]

I know that folks say that Redfoot Torts generally do not have bullying issues...and while that may be more true than not....I have proof here from the two Redfoots that I adopted almost a year ago...that indeed they can be very agressive as well as subtle with their aggression......I have the one redfoot that is healing and getting healthier by the passing time since they have been separated....

Funny thing is, that the aggressor in the bunch is a ruffian....he will literally tuck his head in and charge at my hand and he will stalk my hand ..he will reload also and re tuck and launch himself at my hand when he is in a mood....while I find it humorous I am certain that this type of behavior is absolutely what caused the other redfoot the issues she is dealing with and recouping from now....luckily he is a species that will not get big so all will be fine...and also, I find the spunky torts to be loads of fun....again, this is because he is not a large species of tort....

 

[Redstrike]

I know that folks say that Redfoot Torts generally do not have bullying issues...and while that may be more true than not....I have proof here from the two Redfoots that I adopted almost a year ago...that indeed they can be very agressive as well as subtle with their aggression......I have the one redfoot that is healing and getting healthier by the passing time since they have been separated....

Funny thing is, that the aggressor in the bunch is a ruffian....he will literally tuck his head in and charge at my hand and he will stalk my hand ..he will reload also and re tuck and launch himself at my hand when he is in a mood....while I find it humorous I am certain that this type of behavior is absolutely what caused the other redfoot the issues she is dealing with and recouping from now....luckily he is a species that will not get big so all will be fine...and also, I find the spunky torts to be loads of fun....again, this is because he is not a large species of tort....

Well, Rafiki is definitely the alpha of the group, and s/he is the largest. Knowing this, my enclosure is large enough that I can feed the two older and slightly larger torts seperately from Mandarin and Mimosa. I generally keep an erant eye on them as they feed and have not seen Coagi or Rafiki bullying food from M&M. This does not cover the rest of the time when I'm away from their enclosure, perhaps one or all three have been bullying Mandarin, I really can't say. For the time being Mandarin is now in a seperate enclosure and I will re-evaluate the setup if Mandarin improves. I desperately hope it's not too late...

 

[dmmj]

You said the eyes are closed, but do they look puffy or swollen to you?

 

[Redstrike]

You said the eyes are closed, but do they look puffy or swollen to you?

They looked a bit puffy, but not too bad. I have some opthalmic ointment (Terramycin) that I put on them just to be safe - though I really don't like using these antibiotics unless they are absolutely necessarry.

Thanks Cap'

 

[Madkins007]

Bullying- I have seen a lot of casual bullying between big and small torts in my red-footed pens. Nothing aggressive (unless it is a teenage male trying to mount/dominate everything), but pushing them out of the way for food, blocking access to hides, etc.

Separation or big spaces with lots of options is the best for that.

 

[Redstrike]

Bullying- I have seen a lot of casual bullying between big and small torts in my red-footed pens. Nothing aggressive (unless it is a teenage male trying to mount/dominate everything), but pushing them out of the way for food, blocking access to hides, etc.

Separation or big spaces with lots of options is the best for that.

It's possible that some of this occurred while I wasn't looking after they'd been fed. I think this is a good way to put it into perspective, it's not going to be biting and mounting for juveniles; rather it will likely be excluding and ramming them over for space and/or food.

I guess I assumed I had provided them enough space (4.5 x 3 foot enclosure for 4 tortoises measuring less than 4") and I have 5 hides in the enclosure (two 8" ceramic pots on their sides, two 4" pots, and a half log) plus many sculpted hills and plants to break-up their line of sight. Just goes to show that it may not be enough room! For now I'll keep Mandarin separate while I build a larger enclosure with more hides etc.

I'm really kicking myself over this. I truly had the best intentions and thought there was ample space, hides, and broken up terrain to avoid unwanted eyes. I will say Mandarin has always been a thirsty tortoise. During daily soaks, Mandarin plunges his/her head under water and usually drinks liberally. It's been like this from the day I plucked the little tyke out of its mailed container and it's always concerned me. As the tortoise settled in, I gave it less thought and I knew my environmental parameters were decent as the other three were thriving and doing fine. I think it is usually a culmination of factors that cause serious issues. In this case I can think of few alternatives for Mandarin's current state other than bullying and dehydration - though I thought the daily 15+ minute soaks would cover the dehydration aspect. This makes me think something else may have been going on in addition to possible bullying. Like I said before, I'm a bit lost but I think you're all assisting my progression at uncovering the underlying causes for Mandarin's poor health.

Thank you all for the input and concern and if any of you have any other thoughts, please feel free to share.

 

[Mgridgaway]

Just a random thought, but have you've had a stool done lately? I've heard that torts with parasites can lose their appetites, among other things.

Keep us updated and I hope Mandarin perks up!

 

[Redstrike]

Just a random thought, but have you've had a stool done lately? I've heard that torts with parasites can lose their appetites, among other things.

Keep us updated and I hope Mandarin perks up!

I haven't had a stool done lately. If Mandarin goes, perhaps I'll make a trip out for that. Good thinking

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Just a random thought, but have you've had a stool done lately? I've heard that torts with parasites can lose their appetites, among other things.

Keep us updated and I hope Mandarin perks up!

My thoughts exactly. Intestinal worms can really impair a juvenile quickly. I would possible worm him anyway. NOT IVERMECTIN, but maybe fenbendazole. It won't hurt.

 

[Redstrike]

Just a random thought, but have you've had a stool done lately? I've heard that torts with parasites can lose their appetites, among other things.

Keep us updated and I hope Mandarin perks up!

My thoughts exactly. Intestinal worms can really impair a juvenile quickly. I would possible worm him anyway. NOT IVERMECTIN, but maybe fenbendazole. It won't hurt.

Well, I haven't seen any signs of worms in the remaining three tortoises and I'm apprehensive to dose a 45g tortoise Fenbendazole. Like I said, if I can get a stool sample I'll take it to the vet and discuss dosages with them. At this point I'm apprehensive to introduce an additional stress to the tortoise as fenbendazole is a toxin to the tort as well as the worms - I'd have to force feed it to the tort since it's not eating.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Well, I haven't seen any signs of worms in the remaining three tortoises and I'm apprehensive to dose a 45g tortoise Fenbendazole. Like I said, if I can get a stool sample I'll take it to the vet and discuss dosages with them. At this point I'm apprehensive to introduce an additional stress to the tortoise as fenbendazole is a toxin to the tort as well as the worms - I'd have to force feed it to the tort since it's not eating.

Fair enough. I fecal test is simple, cheap, and quick.

However.... Just because you haven't *seen* worms, does not mean they're not there. And potentially in dangerous populations.

Realistically, any medication will be stressful and "harmful" to an impaired tortoise. I've used fenbendazole and praziquantel in Reptiles quite a bit, and it's been quite reasonably safe. But, if you can get a recent fecal sample, see your vet.

 

[Redstrike]

Well, I haven't seen any signs of worms in the remaining three tortoises and I'm apprehensive to dose a 45g tortoise Fenbendazole. Like I said, if I can get a stool sample I'll take it to the vet and discuss dosages with them. At this point I'm apprehensive to introduce an additional stress to the tortoise as fenbendazole is a toxin to the tort as well as the worms - I'd have to force feed it to the tort since it's not eating.

Fair enough. I fecal test is simple, cheap, and quick.

However.... Just because you haven't *seen* worms, does not mean they're not there. And potentially in dangerous populations.

Realistically, any medication will be stressful and "harmful" to an impaired tortoise. I've used fenbendazole and praziquantel in Reptiles quite a bit, and it's been quite reasonably safe. But, if you can get a recent fecal sample, see your vet.

A good parasite goes unnoticed, so you may be correct that this is due to a parasite load that I've failed to detect. To be safe, I've put some Reptaid in the food that I'm attempting to offer Mandarin, but the little bugger still has his/her eyes closed and is not interested in food. Keep your fingers crossed (I sure am)!

 

[Redstrike]

I have a vet appointment for Mandarin today with Dr. Laura Leighton, she's not on the forum as one of our vets and if she's good I'll PM Josh about this. She's the closest to my area. She's listed at the bottom of this page:
http://www.penobscotvet.com/index.php?id=36&sub_id=37

I always get nervous about going to the vet. I hope she's a good one...