Looking for best place to buy sulcata

[DawnH]

If you read the above links suggested they can answer all these questions and more (do NOT use the red bulbs!!) A kiddie pool can be a fabulous outdoor space when they are little (it was for my guy) but make sure you have adequate shade, a water bowl they cannot flip in, plus a covered top is a MUST to keep them safe as is constant supervision.

 

[THEELEG]

If you read the above links suggested they can answer all these questions and more (do NOT use the red bulbs!!) A kiddie pool can be a fabulous outdoor space when they are little (it was for my guy) but make sure you have adequate shade, a water bowl they cannot flip in, plus a covered top is a MUST to keep them safe as is constant supervision.

View attachment 136681

That thing is sweet hopefully mine comes out as good as yours, no red bulbs got it!!!

 

[Tom]

About buying babies: Here is something I just typed up to answer another members question about where to buy from. It might offer some insight to your situation too.

"If put into an outdoor enclosure with lots of plants and shade, any little one will disappear into the cover. They don't come out and bask like older ones as much.

You need to know from the breeder:
1. Did the babies absorb their yolk sacs in the incubator, or were they moved into a brooder box with damp towels on the bottom?
2. What was the incubation media?
3. What temp were they incubated at?
4. How often were the brand new hatchlings soaked?
5. What was the humidity level in the baby enclosure?
6. Do the hatchlings have a humid hide in their enclosure?

If you can't find out the answers to all of these questions, or if the answer to any one of them is not what we want, buy elsewhere. The heartache of watching your baby decline and die while there is nothing you can do about it is horrendous. Don't put your self and your family in that situation. Buy from someone who starts them right.

Babies who are started too dry will be small for their age and the early stages of pyramiding can be seen as a notch forming between the scutes."



I would add that most of the time babies that were started too dry look and behave normally. They are active inquisitive and often have great appetite. The problem is that their kidneys are damaged and this does not show in any way externally. It can take weeks or months for the first symptoms appear, all the while you are doing everything "right" and they seem "fine".

So how do you know if the baby you are looking at is okay? Answer the six question above and stop looking at the baby.

 

[THEELEG]

About buying babies: Here is something I just typed up to answer another members question about where to buy from. It might offer some insight to your situation too.

"If put into an outdoor enclosure with lots of plants and shade, any little one will disappear into the cover. They don't come out and bask like older ones as much.

You need to know from the breeder:
1. Did the babies absorb their yolk sacs in the incubator, or were they moved into a brooder box with damp towels on the bottom?
2. What was the incubation media?
3. What temp were they incubated at?
4. How often were the brand new hatchlings soaked?
5. What was the humidity level in the baby enclosure?
6. Do the hatchlings have a humid hide in their enclosure?

If you can't find out the answers to all of these questions, or if the answer to any one of them is not what we want, buy elsewhere. The heartache of watching your baby decline and die while there is nothing you can do about it is horrendous. Don't put your self and your family in that situation. Buy from someone who starts them right.

Babies who are started too dry will be small for their age and the early stages of pyramiding can be seen as a notch forming between the scutes."



I would add that most of the time babies that were started too dry look and behave normally. They are active inquisitive and often have great appetite. The problem is that their kidneys are damaged and this does not show in any way externally. It can take weeks or months for the first symptoms appear, all the while you are doing everything "right" and they seem "fine".

So how do you know if the baby you are looking at is okay? Answer the six question above and stop looking at the baby.

We ordered two from Arizona tortoise compound, read great reviews about them on here before I started a profile.

We've watched a bunch of videos with people having more than one tortoise, and I'm reading saying only get one. Why is that??

 

[Tom]

Tortoises should not be kept in pairs. They don't like want or need company. They are solitary animals.

Read these BEFORE you get two:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...together-a-lesson-learned-the-hard-way.94114/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/bad-day-for-baby.114328/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/pairs.34837/


You need to ask ATC all of the above questions BEFORE you buy from them. They have different ideas about starting babies than I do, and different results.

 

[prelyt]

My recommendation is Lancecham, who is a user here. He is a great breeder who raises the best tortoises! He also comes with "lifetime support" and will always be there to answer any questions for you.

 

[Az tortoise compound]

Theeleg, thank you for choosing to purchase your new family member through A.T.C. There is a lot of excellent breeders out there that do very well for their hatchlings. Just like we strive to offer healthy tortoises! I hope you keep us updated on this thread to your experience and tortoises health.

While tortoise keepers do have different ways of raising offspring, a healthy tortoise can be achieved through different husbandry technics. Just like the conflicting information out there on how to properly care for a tortoise. Simple terms - 2+2 =4 and 1+3 = 4. Two different methods with the same result. Take the methods and advice from every one person and apply it to your situation. Your budget, housing space, climate, environment, ect, ect will be different then the advice you receive from others. Take all the main points and apply it into your situation and you will have success, providing you care enough to strive for the best. Just like most other things in life, if you care, work hard and educate your self you can make most anything happen!


"Tom's " - You need to know from the breeder:

1. Did the babies absorb their yolk sacs in the incubator, or were they moved into a brooder box with damp towels on the bottom?
Yes, all tortoise hatchlings are not removed from the incubator until the sac is fully absorbed. Once we remove them from the incubator they do go into our "brooder". Its an outdoor enclosure that is designated for that species of tortoise. Our "damp towels" on the bottom of our "brooder" would be the moist substrate and ground cover that is in the enclosure. It is kept moist throughout the day but we do let it dry out a little from time to time so the tortoises are not sitting on water 24/7. Just as much as humidity and moisture is needed for a healthy shell, it also has to breath and be able to dry out so fungus and different things will not start growing on it.

2. What was the incubation media?
If we incubate the eggs and do not leave them in the ground to hatch naturally we personally use vermiculite as the media. Once eggs are laid, we place them into a container of vermiculite that has been moistened. As the eggs progress to hatching out the vermiculite also deceased in moisture, but not fully. The humidity in the incubator helps the tortoises emerge. If too much water is in the substrate, the eggs are able to take in too much water and become waterlogged/bad.

3. What temp were they incubated at?
We incubate at 86 degrees across the board. Just like other incubators, when the doors are opened the incubator temps will fluctuate a bit. If its freezing out side, our incubators may decrease a touch. When it 115 degrees outside, they could be a touch high. We do not strive for a certain sex, but we strive for perfect shelled animals.

4. How often were the brand new hatchlings soaked?
They are soaked once their egg sacs are absorbed and some we will soak even while the sac is absorbing. Soaking like that will help remove any egg shell or substrate that the tortoises may have stuck to them from hatching out. Once moved out of the incubator, they are soaked again before placing them in their outdoor enclosures. Hydration is very important, especially with a smaller tortoise. As well as keeping a water dish in the enclosure, we do soak them from time to time. When people request a group photo of a certain species, since we pulled them all out, we will soak them.

5. What was the humidity level in the baby enclosure?
We do not monitor the humidity in our outdoor hatchling enclosures with a meter. Hatchlings are place in custom outdoor enclosures. The enclosures are heavily planted with grasses, clovers and fresh alfalfa. We do provide a constant water dish as well as misters in the enclosure. Besides watering the enclosure and having misters run on hot days, dew forms on the grasses most morning. With humidity levels being able to fluctuate depending on temps and time of day, verses how much we water, to answer your question - It fluctuates.

6. Do the hatchlings have a humid hide in their enclosure?
Yes, all the enclosures do have hides for the tortoise to retreat to and feel safe in. The humidity in the hides are higher then the rest of the enclosure. Some hides are rubbermaid containers that have holes cut out and flip over. With the substrate being moist, when you flip the rubbermaid over to look for hatchlings, you can feel the humidity/moisture hit your face. The moister the substrate the higher the humidity. So this varies. Other hatchling enclosure have a ceramic clay pot turned on its side and filled with some substrate. Most hatching will go to the side of the ceramic pot and nestle up to it in the grasses or clovers. Inside the pot which is filled with substrate is not used most of the time, unless the grasses and clover/alfalfa grow over the top and make it into a nice cover with shade. Again the moisture in the substrate will determine the humidity level. The more the hatchlings nestle into the ground, the more moisture their shell come into contact with.


7. As per tortoises being housed together or alone? - They do fine either individually, in pairs or in groups. All tortoises have their own personalities!
If group dynamics, they is a certain hierarchy that is established with in a group. One is the most dominate and one is passive, all the others will fall inline within this. Every once in a while you will have tortoises test the others ranking in the group. The more dominate will shove the less dominate and the lesser will retreat. Going back to them having their own personalities, I can see how someone might of had two hatchlings housed together and one was a bully and the other just sat there and took the beating. This does not mean now all tortoises should not be housed with another one. Two hatchlings can be very much be copacetic with each other just as other sets will not get along. With a proper enclosure and different items in the enclosure to break up lines of site, even multiple adult male Sulcatas can be housed together without drama or death. The answer to this question is mostly a persons own opinion. Someone more independent as a person in life, would probably tell you they are fine being housed alone. Someone with a big heart would tell you they need to be pair up. I tell all my customers that ask this question it is 100% up to them, we do not try and persuade them one way or another.


You need to ask ATC all of the above questions BEFORE you buy from them. They have different ideas about starting babies than I do, and different results. -

Personally, we think we both produce healthy quality hatchlings that we both can stand behind as well as many other breeders out there Tom. Maybe one should be a little more clear when stating the above comment. Comes across as saying our results and others are not good - meaning we produce and offer unhealthy tortoises compared to you. This would be an upsetting comment if taken that way by many. Being open minded and willing to try to learn or understand from others methods will get a tortoise keeper farther in life even if they do not follow those methods. Again ones situation is a lot different then the others. When speaking in opinions one should leave comments and or remarks as just an opinion. Everything we have stated is our opinion, or a description of our ways of doing things. We do not claim to say our methods are the only and best way, nor do we state that other peoples methods are wrong. Speaking from experience backed with many years of breeding and producing tortoises, is where we are able to share our views from.

 

[THEELEG]

Theeleg, thank you for choosing to purchase your new family member through A.T.C. There is a lot of excellent breeders out there that do very well for their hatchlings. Just like we strive to offer healthy tortoises! I hope you keep us updated on this thread to your experience and tortoises health.

While tortoise keepers do have different ways of raising offspring, a healthy tortoise can be achieved through different husbandry technics. Just like the conflicting information out there on how to properly care for a tortoise. Simple terms - 2+2 =4 and 1+3 = 4. Two different methods with the same result. Take the methods and advice from every one person and apply it to your situation. Your budget, housing space, climate, environment, ect, ect will be different then the advice you receive from others. Take all the main points and apply it into your situation and you will have success, providing you care enough to strive for the best. Just like most other things in life, if you care, work hard and educate your self you can make most anything happen!


"Tom's " - You need to know from the breeder:

1. Did the babies absorb their yolk sacs in the incubator, or were they moved into a brooder box with damp towels on the bottom?
Yes, all tortoise hatchlings are not removed from the incubator until the sac is fully absorbed. Once we remove them from the incubator they do go into our "brooder". Its an outdoor enclosure that is designated for that species of tortoise. Our "damp towels" on the bottom of our "brooder" would be the moist substrate and ground cover that is in the enclosure. It is kept moist throughout the day but we do let it dry out a little from time to time so the tortoises are not sitting on water 24/7. Just as much as humidity and moisture is needed for a healthy shell, it also has to breath and be able to dry out so fungus and different things will not start growing on it.

2. What was the incubation media?
If we incubate the eggs and do not leave them in the ground to hatch naturally we personally use vermiculite as the media. Once eggs are laid, we place them into a container of vermiculite that has been moistened. As the eggs progress to hatching out the vermiculite also deceased in moisture, but not fully. The humidity in the incubator helps the tortoises emerge. If too much water is in the substrate, the eggs are able to take in too much water and become waterlogged/bad.

3. What temp were they incubated at?
We incubate at 86 degrees across the board. Just like other incubators, when the doors are opened the incubator temps will fluctuate a bit. If its freezing out side, our incubators may decrease a touch. When it 115 degrees outside, they could be a touch high. We do not strive for a certain sex, but we strive for perfect shelled animals.

4. How often were the brand new hatchlings soaked?
They are soaked once their egg sacs are absorbed and some we will soak even while the sac is absorbing. Soaking like that will help remove any egg shell or substrate that the tortoises may have stuck to them from hatching out. Once moved out of the incubator, they are soaked again before placing them in their outdoor enclosures. Hydration is very important, especially with a smaller tortoise. As well as keeping a water dish in the enclosure, we do soak them from time to time. When people request a group photo of a certain species, since we pulled them all out, we will soak them.

5. What was the humidity level in the baby enclosure?
We do not monitor the humidity in our outdoor hatchling enclosures with a meter. Hatchlings are place in custom outdoor enclosures. The enclosures are heavily planted with grasses, clovers and fresh alfalfa. We do provide a constant water dish as well as misters in the enclosure. Besides watering the enclosure and having misters run on hot days, dew forms on the grasses most morning. With humidity levels being able to fluctuate depending on temps and time of day, verses how much we water, to answer your question - It fluctuates.

6. Do the hatchlings have a humid hide in their enclosure?
Yes, all the enclosures do have hides for the tortoise to retreat to and feel safe in. The humidity in the hides are higher then the rest of the enclosure. Some hides are rubbermaid containers that have holes cut out and flip over. With the substrate being moist, when you flip the rubbermaid over to look for hatchlings, you can feel the humidity/moisture hit your face. The moister the substrate the higher the humidity. So this varies. Other hatchling enclosure have a ceramic clay pot turned on its side and filled with some substrate. Most hatching will go to the side of the ceramic pot and nestle up to it in the grasses or clovers. Inside the pot which is filled with substrate is not used most of the time, unless the grasses and clover/alfalfa grow over the top and make it into a nice cover with shade. Again the moisture in the substrate will determine the humidity level. The more the hatchlings nestle into the ground, the more moisture their shell come into contact with.


7. As per tortoises being housed together or alone? - They do fine either individually, in pairs or in groups. All tortoises have their own personalities!
If group dynamics, they is a certain hierarchy that is established with in a group. One is the most dominate and one is passive, all the others will fall inline within this. Every once in a while you will have tortoises test the others ranking in the group. The more dominate will shove the less dominate and the lesser will retreat. Going back to them having their own personalities, I can see how someone might of had two hatchlings housed together and one was a bully and the other just sat there and took the beating. This does not mean now all tortoises should not be housed with another one. Two hatchlings can be very much be copacetic with each other just as other sets will not get along. With a proper enclosure and different items in the enclosure to break up lines of site, even multiple adult male Sulcatas can be housed together without drama or death. The answer to this question is mostly a persons own opinion. Someone more independent as a person in life, would probably tell you they are fine being housed alone. Someone with a big heart would tell you they need to be pair up. I tell all my customers that ask this question it is 100% up to them, we do not try and persuade them one way or another.


You need to ask ATC all of the above questions BEFORE you buy from them. They have different ideas about starting babies than I do, and different results. -

Personally, we think we both produce healthy quality hatchlings that we both can stand behind as well as many other breeders out there Tom. Maybe one should be a little more clear when stating the above comment. Comes across as saying our results and others are not good - meaning we produce and offer unhealthy tortoises compared to you. This would be an upsetting comment if taken that way by many. Being open minded and willing to try to learn or understand from others methods will get a tortoise keeper farther in life even if they do not follow those methods. Again ones situation is a lot different then the others. When speaking in opinions one should leave comments and or remarks as just an opinion. Everything we have stated is our opinion, or a description of our ways of doing things. We do not claim to say our methods are the only and best way, nor do we state that other peoples methods are wrong. Speaking from experience backed with many years of breeding and producing tortoises, is where we are able to share our views from.

Well thank you, Andrew from A.T.C. for taking the time to talk to me today and answer not only my questions, but also that of others concerned. We can't wait to receive the little one and enjoy watching him grow. If you are looking for a hatchling, I suggest giving this guy a shout. I have read great reviews about him and he has spent time with me on several occasions over the phone answering any and all concerns I may have had. Thank you again A.T.C.

THEELEG (Benjamin)

 

[Tom]

Personally, we think we both produce healthy quality hatchlings that we both can stand behind as well as many other breeders out there Tom. Maybe one should be a little more clear when stating the above comment. Comes across as saying our results and others are not good - meaning we produce and offer unhealthy tortoises compared to you. This would be an upsetting comment if taken that way by many. Being open minded and willing to try to learn or understand from others methods will get a tortoise keeper farther in life even if they do not follow those methods. Again ones situation is a lot different then the others. When speaking in opinions one should leave comments and or remarks as just an opinion. Everything we have stated is our opinion, or a description of our ways of doing things. We do not claim to say our methods are the only and best way, nor do we state that other peoples methods are wrong. Speaking from experience backed with many years of breeding and producing tortoises, is where we are able to share our views from.

I am sending you a private message regarding this...

I don't think discussing this publicly is the way to go at this point.

 

[Heardofturtles]

I am sending you a private message regarding this...

I don't think discussing this publicly is the way to go at this point.

If you're open to suggestions, I think discussing this publicly would be fantastic. In my brief time here, I've read your care sheets and many posts as well as the posts from the multitudes that follow the care sheets and repeat the information. It apparently works well. (In the interest of full disclosure, I don't have a Sulcata and have never done business with ATC, so I'm an impartial observer here).
Andrew apparently approaches several important aspects very differently, again with apparent success.
As neither of you is new to this, your significant differences are certainly worth discussing and would be of interest even to those of us working with different species.
Which is a long way of saying, I hope you reconsider.

 

[Tom]

If you're open to suggestions, I think discussing this publicly would be fantastic. In my brief time here, I've read your care sheets and many posts as well as the posts from the multitudes that follow the care sheets and repeat the information. It apparently works well. (In the interest of full disclosure, I don't have a Sulcata and have never done business with ATC, so I'm an impartial observer here).
Andrew apparently approaches several important aspects very differently, again with apparent success.
As neither of you is new to this, your significant differences are certainly worth discussing and would be of interest even to those of us working with different species.
Which is a long way of saying, I hope you reconsider.

Happy to do so. I've left the ball in Andy's court and have not heard back yet.

I think I might judge "success" differently than some...

 

[Thomapher]

Hello and welcome to the forum.

Read this thread BEFORE you buy or even contact any breeders. It will tell you what you need to ask of the breeder to make sure you don't buy a ticking time bomb. What is, or isn't, done with these babies in the first few days and weeks makes a monumental difference in how things go for you down the road.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/


Then read these to get even farther ahead on what you need to do:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/


I don't have any for sale right now, but Lance, the guy who posted right above me is a great baby starter. Many of the gorgeous healthy tortoises seen on this site came from him. To date he has a track record of 100% success, something that cannot be said about some other sellers.

Come back with any and all questions after reading those threads.

This is SO true! I bought my tortoise (Hank) and he was fantastic, then slowly he began to lose weight and not eat. I found out he had been started dry and kept in conditions that promoted HFS. Sadly, he died about 5 months after I bought him. Please make sure you are buying your tort from a great breeder like @Tom so you don't have to go through what I did

 

[Maro2Bear]

And I would fully endorse @Lancecham for young Sulcatas. Ours has been perfect since day one. Thanks again Lance!

Heres our 'little' guy