Just Another Newbie to the Tortoise world.

[LimestoneCowboy]

Thank you in Advance for doing what you guys do on here. You are helping newbies like myself become more successful in raising our Tortoises right.

I recently purchased 2 Sulcata Tortoise at The Texas Reptile Expo thinking that they would be easy pets.
Having raised 6 red eared sliders back 20 years ago I think made me do a little self deception.

When I read some of the care sheets from some of the other sites it seemed like it was going to be easier
than this. Temps similar to Texas weather, just feed em grass. But the day I bought them I wasn't really prepared.
As I said I thought it was going to be easier.

Well the day we went to the Expo the weather went south, cold and rainy, and it was in San Antonio where I was, but still had to drive all he way to Houston that night.

I really felt like a heel after they were sniffling and squeaking and rubbing their noses for days while I was trying to figure out the mistakes I was making. When I found this place I started finding the answers I needed and quickly started trying to put some corrections in order.

As it stands now I have a 29 Gallon aquarium 30" x 13" x 18".

I have a Exo Terra 150W CHE mounted over one end and have a (Night)reading of 94 deg on a little Digital Thermometer I have in there. I also attached one of those Zoo Med high range Thermometer Flat Strip as a back up and it reads 88 deg on the glass.

I have a Exo Terra 13W desert UVB 150 mounted over the other end. Yes it is a twist coil in a dome light.
Sorry but I bought it before I read on here that this uvb is bad, but the long fluorescent uvb is good.

I'll have to correct that a little later and hopefully they can deal with it for a bit. Also, mounted 18" overhead its not tremendously bright and reduces the amount a lot on the scale on the packaging.

Also in the bottom in this corner I attached a Zoo med analog dual thermo-humidity gauge. which holds at about 80 deg night temp with just the ceramic on. When I turn on the UVB the temp will creep up close to 88 deg and 100-105 on the ceramic side.

I have one of those fake flat rock water trays in the corner and (because I already had it) am using some aspen bedding that I wet down. As this runs out I'll change to a mulch(any recommendations from a home depot or lowes?).

I bought Kale and collard greens. .98cents each at the grocery store.
I go out in my yard and pull st Augustine, Clover, Citronella, Dandelion weeds each morning and cut it up with scissors with the kale and collard greens each day. They are eating all of it together. I also chop up some Strawberry as a treat to further hydrate and feel like like I'm giving them a Treat.

I also soak them each day in warm water for 10-15 minutes and they are giving me white ureates and pooping good, but if I don't return them soon to the heated Aquarium, they will get sniffles n squeak.

One of my concerns is getting adequate humidity. This analog gauge doesn't show me I'm getting over 45-55.
Even with the temps high and me pouring warm water into the bedding. its more like "wet warm" conditions rather than "warm humid". I cut a cardboard 30" x 13" cutout to cover the top of the aquarium, and cut two near perfect holes 1" larger than the domes diameter, to further try and hold humidity in.

I've name dropped this stuff because its typical of what you find in most reptile/pet stores and I don't know what to trust. Like the lights.

I know that this enclosure is not enough but will have to do for the next 3 months of winter.
Humidity issues and concerns.
Lighting concerns.
Future how to's like summer and when/how to spend time outdoors without getting sick.

Thanks and Kind Regards.

 

[Melis]

Welcome! I'm assuming these are baby sulcatas? Have you read the care sheets on this site for sulcatas yet? Unfortunately, many of the things you have described are not going to allow you to raise healthy torts unless changed asap. Also look into reading the threads on closed chambers, as this will be the best home for your babies. Heat and humidity is a must. Also be aware that it is frowned upon to keep torts in pairs, as one will bully the other. Take some time to read through the care sheets in this site, and again welcome to a great community!

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi, and welcome!

Don't wait for summer/good weather. Your babies need a new enclosure right now! please read the stickies at the top of the sulcata section.

 

[Maro2Bear]

Greetings and Welcome!

Melis and Yvonne have already provided some very good tips. I'd also recommend you quickly remove the CFL lamp, and change out the pine shavings too. One quick trip to a garden center, HD or Lowes should help. Fine orchid mix, 100% peatmoss, both better than pine shavings.

Make sure you have warm, dark humid hides as well. And think how you will soon separate them to prevent bullying.

Taking care of one Sully is a handful - hope you have the space, food, etc for two!

I'm sure @Tom will be along as well to provide his sage advice.

• Ps: You want to quickly remedy the things you can....lighting, humidity, heat, substrate, and not wait. You wouldnt want to put hatchlings outside for a long time. So, lots to get done!

 

[alienlogic.salas]

Greetings and Welcome!

Melis and Yvonne have already provided some very good tips. I'd also recommend you quickly remove the CFL lamp, and change out the pine shavings too. One quick trip to a garden center, HD or Lowes should help. Fine orchid mix, 100% peatmoss, both better than pine shavings.

Make sure you have warm, dark humid hides as well. And think how you will soon separate them to prevent bullying.

Taking care of one Sully is a handful - hope you have the space, food, etc for two!

I'm sure @Tom will be along as well to provide his sage advice.

• Ps: You want to quickly remedy the things you can....lighting, humidity, heat, substrate, and not wait. You wouldnt want to put hatchlings outside for a long time. So, lots to get done!

I'm not sure citronella is good to feed them..its a pesticide...last thing you want to give them

 

[alienlogic.salas]

I'm not sure citronella is good to feed them..its a pesticide...last thing you want to give them

Pine is NEVER EVER used for reptiles!!! Eco earth cypress mice play sand. Do research! Do YouTube.. Read read read

 

[Taylor T.]

Pine is NEVER EVER used for reptiles!!! Eco earth cypress mice play sand. Do research! Do YouTube.. Read read read

Sand should not be used as a substrate. It is an impaction hazard.

 

[Cheryl Hills]

No Sand! You will get a lot of great advice here. Welcome to the forum. Have a Merry Christmas!

 

[Tom]

Thank you in Advance for doing what you guys do on here. You are helping newbies like myself become more successful in raising our Tortoises right.

I recently purchased 2 Sulcata Tortoise at The Texas Reptile Expo thinking that they would be easy pets.
Having raised 6 red eared sliders back 20 years ago I think made me do a little self deception.

When I read some of the care sheets from some of the other sites it seemed like it was going to be easier
than this. Temps similar to Texas weather, just feed em grass. But the day I bought them I wasn't really prepared.
As I said I thought it was going to be easier.

Well the day we went to the Expo the weather went south, cold and rainy, and it was in San Antonio where I was, but still had to drive all he way to Houston that night.

I really felt like a heel after they were sniffling and squeaking and rubbing their noses for days while I was trying to figure out the mistakes I was making. When I found this place I started finding the answers I needed and quickly started trying to put some corrections in order.

As it stands now I have a 29 Gallon aquarium 30" x 13" x 18".

I have a Exo Terra 150W CHE mounted over one end and have a (Night)reading of 94 deg on a little Digital Thermometer I have in there. I also attached one of those Zoo Med high range Thermometer Flat Strip as a back up and it reads 88 deg on the glass.

I have a Exo Terra 13W desert UVB 150 mounted over the other end. Yes it is a twist coil in a dome light.
Sorry but I bought it before I read on here that this uvb is bad, but the long fluorescent uvb is good.

I'll have to correct that a little later and hopefully they can deal with it for a bit. Also, mounted 18" overhead its not tremendously bright and reduces the amount a lot on the scale on the packaging.

Also in the bottom in this corner I attached a Zoo med analog dual thermo-humidity gauge. which holds at about 80 deg night temp with just the ceramic on. When I turn on the UVB the temp will creep up close to 88 deg and 100-105 on the ceramic side.

I have one of those fake flat rock water trays in the corner and (because I already had it) am using some aspen bedding that I wet down. As this runs out I'll change to a mulch(any recommendations from a home depot or lowes?).

I bought Kale and collard greens. .98cents each at the grocery store.
I go out in my yard and pull st Augustine, Clover, Citronella, Dandelion weeds each morning and cut it up with scissors with the kale and collard greens each day. They are eating all of it together. I also chop up some Strawberry as a treat to further hydrate and feel like like I'm giving them a Treat.

I also soak them each day in warm water for 10-15 minutes and they are giving me white ureates and pooping good, but if I don't return them soon to the heated Aquarium, they will get sniffles n squeak.

One of my concerns is getting adequate humidity. This analog gauge doesn't show me I'm getting over 45-55.
Even with the temps high and me pouring warm water into the bedding. its more like "wet warm" conditions rather than "warm humid". I cut a cardboard 30" x 13" cutout to cover the top of the aquarium, and cut two near perfect holes 1" larger than the domes diameter, to further try and hold humidity in.

I've name dropped this stuff because its typical of what you find in most reptile/pet stores and I don't know what to trust. Like the lights.

I know that this enclosure is not enough but will have to do for the next 3 months of winter.
Humidity issues and concerns.
Lighting concerns.
Future how to's like summer and when/how to spend time outdoors without getting sick.

Thanks and Kind Regards.

Hello and welcome!

While you might not have found the right info yet, it sure sounds to me like you've got the right mindset and willingness to do what needs to be done.

Give these a read through to start with, and I'll come back and address your questions one by one after this mornings festivities die down a little.
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/

 

[alienlogic.salas]

Sand should not be used as a substrate. It is an impaction hazard.

Not when mixed with soil or coconut choir

 

[Maro2Bear]

I'm not sure citronella is good to feed them..its a pesticide...last thing you want to give them

Not sure where the reference to "citronella" came up, but you are certainly correct about not feeding it.

 

[Tom]

Not sure where the reference to "citronella" came up, but you are certainly correct about not feeding it.

Original poster mentioned it in the original post.

 

[Tom]

Thank you in Advance for doing what you guys do on here. You are helping newbies like myself become more successful in raising our Tortoises right.

I recently purchased 2 Sulcata Tortoise at The Texas Reptile Expo thinking that they would be easy pets.
Having raised 6 red eared sliders back 20 years ago I think made me do a little self deception.

When I read some of the care sheets from some of the other sites it seemed like it was going to be easier
than this. Temps similar to Texas weather, just feed em grass. But the day I bought them I wasn't really prepared.
As I said I thought it was going to be easier.

Well the day we went to the Expo the weather went south, cold and rainy, and it was in San Antonio where I was, but still had to drive all he way to Houston that night.

I really felt like a heel after they were sniffling and squeaking and rubbing their noses for days while I was trying to figure out the mistakes I was making. When I found this place I started finding the answers I needed and quickly started trying to put some corrections in order.

As it stands now I have a 29 Gallon aquarium 30" x 13" x 18".

I have a Exo Terra 150W CHE mounted over one end and have a (Night)reading of 94 deg on a little Digital Thermometer I have in there. I also attached one of those Zoo Med high range Thermometer Flat Strip as a back up and it reads 88 deg on the glass.

I have a Exo Terra 13W desert UVB 150 mounted over the other end. Yes it is a twist coil in a dome light.
Sorry but I bought it before I read on here that this uvb is bad, but the long fluorescent uvb is good.

I'll have to correct that a little later and hopefully they can deal with it for a bit. Also, mounted 18" overhead its not tremendously bright and reduces the amount a lot on the scale on the packaging.

Also in the bottom in this corner I attached a Zoo med analog dual thermo-humidity gauge. which holds at about 80 deg night temp with just the ceramic on. When I turn on the UVB the temp will creep up close to 88 deg and 100-105 on the ceramic side.

I have one of those fake flat rock water trays in the corner and (because I already had it) am using some aspen bedding that I wet down. As this runs out I'll change to a mulch(any recommendations from a home depot or lowes?).

I bought Kale and collard greens. .98cents each at the grocery store.
I go out in my yard and pull st Augustine, Clover, Citronella, Dandelion weeds each morning and cut it up with scissors with the kale and collard greens each day. They are eating all of it together. I also chop up some Strawberry as a treat to further hydrate and feel like like I'm giving them a Treat.

I also soak them each day in warm water for 10-15 minutes and they are giving me white ureates and pooping good, but if I don't return them soon to the heated Aquarium, they will get sniffles n squeak.

One of my concerns is getting adequate humidity. This analog gauge doesn't show me I'm getting over 45-55.
Even with the temps high and me pouring warm water into the bedding. its more like "wet warm" conditions rather than "warm humid". I cut a cardboard 30" x 13" cutout to cover the top of the aquarium, and cut two near perfect holes 1" larger than the domes diameter, to further try and hold humidity in.

I've name dropped this stuff because its typical of what you find in most reptile/pet stores and I don't know what to trust. Like the lights.

I know that this enclosure is not enough but will have to do for the next 3 months of winter.
Humidity issues and concerns.
Lighting concerns.
Future how to's like summer and when/how to spend time outdoors without getting sick.

Thanks and Kind Regards.

Here goes the question by question answer:

• SInce you bought two, you will need two separate enclosures, They should not live as pairs. Groups of 3 or more will usually work as juveniles, but not pairs.
• Because you bought them at an expo, there is about a 98% chance that they were started too dry. Read this so you understand what to look out for: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/ I sincerely hope this is not an issue for you, but I prefer to forewarn people so they know what to watch for.
• Sulcatas really are easy pets, IF IF IF you set them up correctly. They are really very hardy and easy to care for as long as you don't treat them like a desert animal. You mentioned RES, but have you ever raised any other reptile pets from more humid climates? If you have, then you'll already have the idea. If not, we will help you get it figured out.
• The temps they need are NOT similar to Texas winter weather. The temps they need are pretty darn close to Texas summer weather though. They come from the tropics. My Senegalese friend tells me that they have but two seasons over there: The Hot season and the Hotter season.
• Grass should be the main component of an adult sulcatas diet, and you can even use grass hay. I prefer orchard grass hay or bermuda hay. I find Timothy hay to be too stemmy, although large adults can eat it just fine. When they are babies, I prefer to use some tender fresh cut grass, but I use lots of other stuff too. Its all in that thread I posted previously.
• Heat is the "cure" for respiratory infection. Sounds like you've got them warm enough now. Keep the ambient in the coolest part of the enclosure no lower than 85 day and night until two weeks after symptoms disappear. 80 is a good ambient when they aren't fighting a cold induced respiratory infection.
• Your tank is too small even for one. I use a minimum of 40 gallon tanks for brand new hatchlings, but I prefer to start them in 100 gallon tanks or 4x4' closed chambers.
• The 150 watt CHE is fine, but you need to run it on a thermostat. I like this one: https://www.lllreptile.com/products/13883-zilla-1000-watt-temperature-controller
• You need to get a digital thermometer that you can move around the enclosure so you know all your temps. The stick on dial types are terrible and the stick on flat types only tell you the approximate temp where you stick it. You can also get e thermometer with a remote probe to move around, either wired or wireless.
• You already know the coil bulb is potentially bad, so good that you removed it. They can go a few weeks with no UV while you sort all this out. The 18" tube will work, but as you already know, it needs to be 10-12" over the tortoise at most. When you are ready, look into Arcadia tube for good light and UV. The newer HO (High Output) types can be mounted 18-24" high and still be effective. And they last for years! I get mine here: http://www.lightyourreptiles.com
• I don't see any mention of a basking lamp. They need this. The CHE is for maintaining ambient temps above 80. The basking lamp gives them a 95-100 degree hot spot to go warm up under and move away from when they are warm enough. This is another reason why you need a larger tank. Its hard to get a good temp gradient when the tank is too small. You end up over heating or under heating the whole thing. I use regular 65 watt incandescent flood bulbs from the hard ware store for this purpose. I put them on a digital timer for 12-13 hours and I set the height of the fixture to get the correct temp under it.
• FIne grade orchid bark works best for these babies, but you might not find it in the "big box" chain stores. I get mine in bulk at a local garden center or nursery. OSH sell it in 1.0 cubic foot bags for a reasonable price too. The pet shop stuff works fine, but its very expensive that way. No aspen or pine shaving. You can't keep that damp.
• Kale and collards are okay once in a while, but not as staples. If you must use grocery store greens (We all do sometimes…) favor endive an escarole, but use lots of variety. Cut out the fruit. Its not good for them and they don't need it. Its all explained in that food thread.
• Daily soaks are good, but shoot for 30 minutes. The water MUST be kept warm the whole time. You can constantly refresh it, or put the soaking tub somewhere warm, like partially under a heat lamp or on a heat pad. Just watch the temp carefully.
• The open topped enclosure is going to be a problem. Its going to make your life difficult. You'll need to solve this problem ASAP, not 3 months from now. ANd because they are being raised primarily indoors when they are little, it doesn't matter what the seasons are doing outside. If you were planning on putting them outside full tie in summer as little babies, that won't work well for you or for them.

Please feel free to come back with all your questions!

 

[Maro2Bear]

Original poster mentioned it in the original post.

Aaaagh, thanks Tom. I must have missed that initial reference in the OP’s post. Thank you. I see that you provided a detailed follow-up response as well. Tks. Happy Holidays to you and your menagerie.

 

[Tim Carlisle]

 

[Markw84]

Not sure where the reference to "citronella" came up, but you are certainly correct about not feeding it.

Citronella is also a name given to a type of geranium that smells like citronella and is hyped to help keep away mosquitos. It doesn’t keep mosquitos away but it certainly ok as a food for a tortoise

 

[Maro2Bear]

Citronella is also a name given to a type of geranium that smells like citronella and is hyped to help keep away mosquitos. It doesn’t keep mosquitos away but it certainly ok as a food for a tortoise

Thanks Mark, yes I’m familiar with that type of Geranium. Back on track on this topic.

 

[alienlogic.salas]

Thanks Mark, yes I’m familiar with that type of Geranium. Back on track on this topic.

Oh okay! Good! Good to know

 

[LimestoneCowboy]

Well I certainly have My work cut out for me!

I don't know how in the hell I got citronella from Cilantro but LOL.
The point was that I did read about introducing the grass that I naturally have and to weed them off the Kale and Collared greens.
So I go out and just pick the St Augustine, Cilantro, Clover and Dandelions that, when outdoors, I intend for them to naturally find and eat.
When I got them they would walk right pass the grass and pick out the kale and collared greens but now they eat it all. They have a little trouble biting off the strands of St Augustine and shred and pull on it so I need to cut it up smaller. I stop with the Strawberry treat

I can go to home depot or Lowes and get correct substrate tomorrow.

I can even buy plywood etc and build an enclosure but I will need to do some reading to figure out how to make it right and what would suit me.

I really enjoy just being able to watch them and Interact with them. This is Important, and to be in my Home, it has to look good and be somewhat attractive.

Humidity control and how much is really necessary and for how long?

80 percent humidity constant or a range of 50-80 through out the day and year?
Soaking substrate is enough to accomplish this?

Also, they like to eat their poop. I read about them eating dogs but not about their own. Are they looking for nutrients or aid in digestion?

I am enjoying the warm welcome! Thanks!

 

[Tom]

Well I certainly have My work cut out for me!

I don't know how in the hell I got citronella from Cilantro but LOL.
The point was that I did read about introducing the grass that I naturally have and to weed them off the Kale and Collared greens.
So I go out and just pick the St Augustine, Cilantro, Clover and Dandelions that, when outdoors, I intend for them to naturally find and eat.
When I got them they would walk right pass the grass and pick out the kale and collared greens but now they eat it all. They have a little trouble biting off the strands of St Augustine and shred and pull on it so I need to cut it up smaller. I stop with the Strawberry treat

I can go to home depot or Lowes and get correct substrate tomorrow.

I can even buy plywood etc and build an enclosure but I will need to do some reading to figure out how to make it right and what would suit me.

I really enjoy just being able to watch them and Interact with them. This is Important, and to be in my Home, it has to look good and be somewhat attractive.

Humidity control and how much is really necessary and for how long?

80 percent humidity constant or a range of 50-80 through out the day and year?
Soaking substrate is enough to accomplish this?

Also, they like to eat their poop. I read about them eating dogs but not about their own. Are they looking for nutrients or aid in digestion?

I am enjoying the warm welcome! Thanks!

Cilantro is good for variety.

For the grass, you need tender young grass shoots for little babies. You can buy little sprouted pots of wheat grass in pet stores or some grocery store. If you keep it watered and in a sunny window sill, you can get 8 or 9 good cuttings form it.

You probably won't find the right substrate at Lowes or HD. They don't carry it here, but Barb told me that they do carry it at some stores around the country. Just don't be surprised if they don't have it. You want fine grade orchid bark with no additives. AKA: Fir bark, when you read the ingredients.

Here is the best example that I know of for closed chambers that look nice: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/our-new-closed-chamber-for-our-new-group-of-tortoises.138430/ My closed chambers are made of plywood and live in my garage. You can also buy one ready made here: http://www.apcages.com/home/terrestrial/terrestrial.htm

The purpose of the humidity is to make sure they stay hydrated and to prevent pyramiding. For 30 years we mistakenly were taught that this spices comes from a desert and that any humidity would lead to shell rot or respiratory infection. We now know that was totally false. They hatch at the start of the monsoon season. Its raining all the time and humidity is very high. High like South East Texas in Summer high. The problem comes when people cool them off at night like a temperate species, which they are not. Keep the ambient temp above 80 and the humidity high, and you will have healthy babies.

How long to keep humidity "high"? Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. If your tortoise is growing, humidity needs to be high. In practice, it is easy to keep humidity at 80+% when they are little and living inside most of the time. The problem comes when you live in a dry climate and they get too big to live indoors anymore. My solution to this problem has been to humidify their outdoor heated night boxes with shelves that hold tubs of water, but that is probably a couple of years away for you.

Soaking the substrate will easily keep your humidity where you want it in a closed chamber. WIth an open top and the heat sources above the tank, it will be a constant losing battle.

Coprophagia is fairly normal. Hopefully, they will soon be pooping in their longer soaks, so they won't have access to it to eat it. Problem solved.

Looking at your pics, these guys have had a bit of a dry start already. To stop the pyramiding that is already under way, you will need to keep humidity above 80% 24/7, soak daily, and spray the shell with water several times a day. Use regular tap water for soaking and drinking, but spray and rinse with rainwater, RO water or distilled, to prevent hard water stains. Stopping pyramiding in progress is much harder than preventing it in the first place.