is uv-b needed ??

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Madkins007

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The war on rickets is an interesting example. Before the Industrial Revolution, rickets were not a real big issue- humans got plenty of sunlight and reasonably healthy diets. When people started to spend most of their days indoors, and pollutants blocked more and more of the UV hitting the ground, we started to see severe problems with vitamin D shortages in people, especially the young. Combine this with increasing problems getting calcium-rich foods for a variety of reasons and rickets became a real issue.

More recently, there are problems with people who cover themselves extensively for cultural purposes or to avoid sunlight to minimize the risk of skin cancer- but the very tools to prevent cancer also block the UVB needed to prevent rickets and other calcium issues. Rickets still occurs in places where people have a hard time getting enough calcium in their food- even if there is plenty of sunlight available- most often due to poverty.

Although we CAN get vitamin D through diet, not many foods have enough to really help, and those that do are not widely eaten. We need about 600Iu a day. That works out to about 20oz of tuna, eel, mackerel, or salmon; 30 eggs; almost 9lbs of beef liver; 1/2 tablespoon cod liver oil; about 4.5oz of UV-exposed mushrooms, or about 9lb or unexposed mushrooms; or 4.8 8oz glasses of vitamin D fortified milk a day. (Many cereals, etc. are also fortified- but usually to fairly low levels.)

Vitamin D supplements help as well, liquid more so than dry, but many experts are unsure if they are used by the body in the same way, and even more wonder if tortoises benefit much from them.

By the way- the bit you see in old Bugs Bunny cartoons about kids taking big spoonfuls of 'nasty' cod liver oil? That is based on a common preventative treatment for rickets!

By the way #2- many nutrition experts would tell you that you (and your kids) are probably a bit low in vitamin D right now. Most people in the Northern Hemisphere seem to be, and even Australia is struggling with this.
 

bfmorris

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Madkins007 said:
The war on rickets is an interesting example. Before the Industrial Revolution, rickets were not a real big issue- humans got plenty of sunlight and reasonably healthy diets. When people started to spend most of their days indoors, and pollutants blocked more and more of the UV hitting the ground, we started to see severe problems with vitamin D shortages in people, especially the young. Combine this with increasing problems getting calcium-rich foods for a variety of reasons and rickets became a real issue.

More recently, there are problems with people who cover themselves extensively for cultural purposes or to avoid sunlight to minimize the risk of skin cancer- but the very tools to prevent cancer also block the UVB needed to prevent rickets and other calcium issues. Rickets still occurs in places where people have a hard time getting enough calcium in their food- even if there is plenty of sunlight available- most often due to poverty.

Although we CAN get vitamin D through diet, not many foods have enough to really help, and those that do are not widely eaten. We need about 600Iu a day. That works out to about 20oz of tuna, eel, mackerel, or salmon; 30 eggs; almost 9lbs of beef liver; 1/2 tablespoon cod liver oil; about 4.5oz of UV-exposed mushrooms, or about 9lb or unexposed mushrooms; or 4.8 8oz glasses of vitamin D fortified milk a day. (Many cereals, etc. are also fortified- but usually to fairly low levels.)

Vitamin D supplements help as well, liquid more so than dry, but many experts are unsure if they are used by the body in the same way, and even more wonder if tortoises benefit much from them.

By the way- the bit you see in old Bugs Bunny cartoons about kids taking big spoonfuls of 'nasty' cod liver oil? That is based on a common preventative treatment for rickets!

By the way #2- many nutrition experts would tell you that you (and your kids) are probably a bit low in vitamin D right now. Most people in the Northern Hemisphere seem to be, and even Australia is struggling with this.

Thanks for the reply, though I don't think the D3 situation is a dire as implied. I think what goes missing is acknowledgement of the tremendous ability of the body to adapt to different situations. No animal is going to become VitD3 toxic from excess exposure to sun. Likewise, no animal is going to become vitD3 toxic from sun (lots or little, weak or strong) plus a diet with reasonable levels of D3. The body has tremendous potential to regulate synthesis, absorption, excretion etc. If we keep the tortoise within reasonable limits (ie sun can be present or absent, weak or strong) and we make available reasonable levels of dietary D3 to cover when the sun is weak or absent, the tortoise will be fine. Likewise, D3 stores will be fine if there is exposure to good sun year-round with no dietary D3. My extensive observation experience supports that exposure to sun for 4-6 months may be enough D3 for adults but not hatchlings < 1yr old. The other area that seems neglected is recognition of interactions. It's not just D3, sun, calcium. Non-nutrient interactors include calories, fibers, and temperature, activity, stress, etc. I think animals would greatly benefit from people looking at a wider picture beyond the dietary D3/no D3 dichotomy.

As for amount of dietary D3, all my tortoises (inside and outdoors) receive dietary D3 at about 1-2 Iu per gram/dm.
 

Morty the Torty

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Redfoot NERD said:
Hey 'cow'!

I had a couple redfoots that were hatchlings in '05 - see the date in lower right

I still have the one on the left and he's a male.. and at 5 years old he looked like this -

How's that growth rate compare with yours at 5? No need to be angry ... be happy!!!

Terry K aka NERD / Turtletary - I'll figure it out one of these days.. maybe.

Do you have a sulcata care sheet too? Just wondering!
 

Madkins007

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bfmorris said:
Thanks for the reply, though I don't think the D3 situation is a dire as implied. I think what goes missing is acknowledgement of the tremendous ability of the body to adapt to different situations. No animal is going to become VitD3 toxic from excess exposure to sun. Likewise, no animal is going to become vitD3 toxic from sun (lots or little, weak or strong) plus a diet with reasonable levels of D3. The body has tremendous potential to regulate synthesis, absorption, excretion etc. If we keep the tortoise within reasonable limits (ie sun can be present or absent, weak or strong) and we make available reasonable levels of dietary D3 to cover when the sun is weak or absent, the tortoise will be fine. Likewise, D3 stores will be fine if there is exposure to good sun year-round with no dietary D3. My extensive observation experience supports that exposure to sun for 4-6 months may be enough D3 for adults but not hatchlings < 1yr old. The other area that seems neglected is recognition of interactions. It's not just D3, sun, calcium. Non-nutrient interactors include calories, fibers, and temperature, activity, stress, etc. I think animals would greatly benefit from people looking at a wider picture beyond the dietary D3/no D3 dichotomy.

As for amount of dietary D3, all my tortoises (inside and outdoors) receive dietary D3 at about 1-2 Iu per gram/dm.

Hey, I'm on your side for the most part. I just thought the war on rickets bit was interesting and deserved further comment.

Actually- you CANNOT OD on vitamin D from sunlight, there is a built-in system to prevent that. However, you CAN OD on supplemental or dietary D (although it is hard to do) since it does not pass in the way the water-soluble vitamins do.

The thing about dietary D that always bothers me is that we have a reasonable understanding of the dose tortoises need (200-2,000Ius/day/kilogram), but we treat it more as a seasoning- a bit here and a bit there and that's OK- whether it really is or not.

I always hear things like "I don't need UVB, my tort gets [fill in the blank- calcium with D3, cat food, mushrooms, etc.], so it gets all it needs without ever going outside- as if 15-100Iu a week is all it needs without sunlight.

MOST hatchlings and yearlings are kept indoors with no sunlight (unless it is filtered through the glass, and all the UVB is removed), and inadequate levels of D. THEN, they comment about pyramiding, soft shells, reproductive failure as adults, etc.

I also fully agree that good overall health comes from a balance of several things- the things you mention, humidity/hydration, available space and even topography, good sleep, and more.
 

bfmorris

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Madkins007 said:
The thing about dietary D that always bothers me is that we have a reasonable understanding of the dose tortoises need (200-2,000Ius/day/kilogram), but we treat it more as a seasoning- a bit here and a bit there and that's OK- whether it really is or not.


Interesting, the rate you cite differs significantly from what I adhere to. My opinion, which is strongly supported by many years of practicing it, is that D3 dosed at 1-2 Iu's per gram of dm is 'reasonable'.
 

Madkins007

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(Sorry- it took forever to refind this thread!)

Do you have a source for your dosage? Not challenging you, just always looking for new information.

200-2000IU/day/kg would work out to .2-2IU/day/gram- the difference in our formulas is yours is dry weight of the food, mine is weight of the tortoise. As I write this, I am working to find the formula it was based on in Mader's book on Reptile Medicine and Surgery. I forgot to cite the page number when I found it and cannot seem to relocate it. If I remember the original correctly, it was based on kcal/day and I used his basal metabolic rate formula to find the final dosage.

Shoot- I'll have to keep looking.
 

ripper7777777

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Sorry, Just wanted to say I always wondered what the cod liver oil was for in the old cartoons, not enough to actually research it though.


Oh, Great info, I'll keep reading and trying to understand it all.
 

bfmorris

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Madkins007 said:
Do you have a source for your dosage?



Two sources. One, Dr Susan Donoghue, two, about a decade of excellent results and experience applying her consultation.
 

Madkins007

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LOL! I will gladly bow to Dr. Donoghue, even though I only know her by reputation. She wrote quite a bit of the nutrition stuff in Mader's book. She probably wrote the formula I found and probably screwed up figuring how to apply.

OK, so the next question is how do you apply the goal of 1-2IU/g DM in real life? I have no idea what the dry matter weight of my pile of greens and stuff is?
 
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