yagyujubei said:Well eventhough your answer to my post seems concise and factual, much of what you said is merely conjecture, and some is simply not true.
We'll see about that.
Dogs are not "domesticated wolves" they are not canis lupus. They are their own distinct species, very different from their progenitors.
Wrong. The latest genetic research has shown that the dog comes from wolves domesticated in southern Asia - probably the Arabian, Indian, or Tibetan wolf subspecies. With the exception of some rare hybridization events with coyotes and golden jackals (their next closest relatives), dogs are pure, domesticated wolves, Canis lupus familiaris.
New evidence says that horses were domesticated over 9000 years ago. I have seen no evidence that says that their emergence led to the decline of wild equines.Same thing with the aurochs, hunting was the cause of their extinction. The last herd lived in Poland in the 1400's, protected by the king. There is evidence thast says that aurochs were pitted in the roman arenas.
Horses went extinct in North America around 10,000 years ago, probably due at least in part to over-hunting. In the Eastern Hemisphere, the horse was probably domesticated, as you say, around 9,000 years ago on the Eurasian steppes. Horses were then used as war transport and beasts of burden while agrarian civilization spread. This cut down on habitat available to wild animals, then as now. Hunting was also a factor. Thus, except for the Mongolian wild horse, the only horses to survive were those that had been domesticated.
Ditto for cattle. Aurochs were domesticated some 10,000 years ago for use as beasts of burden, meat, and milk. Again, as civilization spread, wild aurochs lost habitat, while domesticated aurochs survived alongside humans. Again, over-hunting was also a problem. The reason aurochs were down to only a few individuals in Poland during the 1600s was because of all that hunting and agrarian expansion that took place up to that point.
Your whole objection seems to be based on the assumption that these tortoise hybrids are fertile.
Wrong. Fertile or sterile, I think it's wrong to artificially hybridize animals that have been separated by millions of years of divergent evolution.
What makes you think that.
I don't know if they're fertile or sterile. Like most people, I am curious. We'll probably find out in the near future as people's hybrids reach maturity. If they're fertile, they jeopardize captive stocks of each species. If they're sterile, then we have bred unhealthy animals for no reason (fertility is an aspect of health). Either way, we lose.
Most hybrid animals are not able to reproduce naturally.
That is true for mammals, yes, although as other TFO members have pointed out, hybrid reptiles appear to retain fertility more easily than hybrid mammals. This is probably because mammals have chromosomal sex determination, while reptiles have environmental sex determination.
I suspect, though, that even if they do prove to be infertile, you would still object.
Correct.
Your entire argument seems to be against any scientific study or advances.
My argument relies on the most recent biological research, as well as ethics.
Your way of thinking seems a little narrow minded to me.
Why?
If you think that beefalos raised in the seventies are the reason wild bison don't roam everywhere anymore, I'm just not sure where they are supposed to roam. I think it just might have something to do with the government attempt to kill the indians in the 1800's, followed by the large western cattle ranches unwilling to share their almost free leases of government land with the native bison. I'm just sayin'
Yep, great points. Bison were reduced from 30 million down to 500 animals due to over-hunting, industrialism, and white genocide against Indians. A number of obstacles, as you pointed out, have arisen since then. However, today the Buffalo Commons movement seeks to reintroduce bison to the Great Plains, both for conservation and commercial use. Since the 1970s, the demand for bison ranching has grown, such that today we have 500,000 bison. Most of that demand has come from bison meat, which is good and good for you.
The problem with cattle introgression is that it makes it harder to introduce bison into new areas, because people are concerned they will pollute the gene pool of full-blooded bison. If no one had bred "beefalo" or "cattalo" 100 years ago, it might be easier to expand bison ranching and conservation today.
What will our descendants say about us 100 years from now?