Hybrid, Leopcata?

[Q'sTortie]

I saw this ad and I was wondering if it was even real. It must be since they are selling it but are there any side effects? Can this even happen in the wild? People have crossed a zebra with a horse and we cross certain dog breeds and call it designer dogs. Will this be a new trend for designer tortoise?? This is my first time seeing a live hybrid tortoise, its really beautiful and it is really puzzling me for some reason. Does anyone here have any "hybrid" tortoises?

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=951140

 

[wellington]

RE: Hybrid?

Someone just post a thread yesterday about this. Yes it's possible. Yes it's real. Not sure if it could be done with all species. Others will have more.

 

[tortadise]

RE: Hybrid?

Jd (N2TORTS) has some leaprucatas, they look pretty neat and show similarities of both species. Im not big on hybrids that have been bred of intention for a buck. But they are interesting to see the different growth of the two species. leopards and sulcatas could possibly cross in the wild if presented numerous times. It takes alot of work I would imagine. I would think the chances in the wild would be slim. Females will retain sperm from males for up to 4 years as well from many other males, so chances of being a total "pure" hyrbid in the wild would be very slim but could possibly have some DNA differences.

 

[shellysmom]

RE: Hybrid?

I think someone here posted this link yesterday, too. I don't like the fact that some random person can get 2 different tortoise species to mate and then suddenly have something worth $2000. That doesn't sit well with me at all. I mean, it's a beautiful tortoise, no doubt, but still...

 

[Q'sTortie]

Ah I must have missed that thread. It doesn't seem to be a common thing I guess since I don't see anything else hybrid for sale or on this forum. I hope it stays that way. I really like having the different species, but it is still intriguing to know what those hybrids would look like.

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

Oh, dear.

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

Possible and probable!

 

[Tom]

Their ranges do not overlap in the wild.

Personally I don't think we should be diluting the limited captive genes we have and creating hybrids. The two species shouldn't be housed together anyway...

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

Their ranges do not overlap in the wild.

Personally I don't think we should be diluting the limited captive genes we have and creating hybrids. The two species shouldn't be housed together anyway...

Yep!

 

[jtrux]

People have trouble giving mutt dogs away so why charge 2k for a mutt tortoise, doesn't make sense to me.

 

[EricIvins]

I guess I will go out on a limb and say that I think this is probably the best of both worlds as far as a "Pet" Tortoise goes.......The personality without the size, for someone who wants a Sulcata type Tortoise.......

This "genepool" has already been peed in......This is not going to make it any worse.......Besides, when did Taxonomy become black and white? Last I heard, it was a pretty fluid science, and what we have "thought" in the past was not neccessarily right to begin with.......An example would be Cuora Trifasciata.......Expect the same with both Leopards and Sulcatas once the DNA work has been done with them.......

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

People have trouble giving mutt dogs away so why charge 2k for a mutt tortoise, doesn't make sense to me.

Remember, mutt dogs are still real dogs. All dogs come from wolves domesticated at least 15,000 years ago. It amazes me that mutts cost less than purebred dogs, when mutts are typically healthier than their pedigreed brethren.

This leopard tortoise x sulcata hybrid is a mixture of two different species that have been separated for millions of years. I agree with you about the price, though. I am happy to pay for wildtype tortoises, but I would pay zero for interspecific hybrids or inbred color morphs and albinos. Sadly, there are plenty of people who don't share that sentiment.

 

[yagyujubei]

I can't blame the nay sayers here. After all everyone knows the havoc that resulted when man started breeding mules. You just can't find a horse anymore without some donkey blood in it. And ligers, don't get me started. They're one of the main reasons I don't buy lions or tigers any more. Just can't be sure. I believe that these hybrid are a sign of impending doom "...and low, man created the abomination and named it leoprocattasulpardo or something like that..." One of the signs of the apocolypse.

 

[N2TORTS]

I guess I will go out on a limb and say that I think this is probably the best of both worlds as far as a "Pet" Tortoise goes.......The personality without the size, for someone who wants a Sulcata type Tortoise.......

This "genepool" has already been peed in......This is not going to make it any worse.......Besides, when did Taxonomy become black and white? Last I heard, it was a pretty fluid science, and what we have "thought" in the past was not neccessarily right to begin with.......An example would be Cuora Trifasciata.......Expect the same with both Leopards and Sulcatas once the DNA work has been done with them.......

Eric.....your right! . Remember without limbs you don't have a TREE

 

[jtrux]

I guess i'm just not all that impressed when get people trying to see what kind of creations they can come up with. Well I guess a Centaur would impress me, but who wouldn't be impressed by that? lol

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

Half man, half horse's arse? Heck, I know some people who are 100% horse's arses!

 

[TheTortoiseWhisperer]

I'm on the fence with this topic…..I just don't see the difference between hybrid torts and hybrid dogs which I happen to have one <---a beautiful Bernadane 1/2 Great Dane 1/2 St. Bernard and he is, hands down the best, most amazing dog we've ever had….besides that, I saw the pictures and good or bad that is one GORGEOUS tort, I personally would love to have one. It really is beautiful.

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

I'm on the fence with this topic…..I just don't see the difference between hybrid torts and hybrid dogs which I happen to have one <---a beautiful Bernadane 1/2 Great Dane 1/2 St. Bernard and he is, hands down the best, most amazing dog we've ever had….besides that, I saw the pictures and good or bad that is one GORGEOUS tort, I personally would love to have one. It really is beautiful.

The difference is that ALL dog breeds are ESTABLISHED domesticated hybrids of wolves for thousands of years. Whether you have a Great Dane or a Dachsund, it is the same exact species. If you cross those breeds together, it is the same exact species.

A sulcata tortoise is a different species from a leopard tortoise. As mentioned before, their ranges do not overlap in the wild, so they do nto encounter each other naturally. Also, in contrast to cats, dogs, and livestock, people have only been keeping "exotic" pets (i.e. birds, reptiles, fish, etc) on a regular basis for the past few hundred years. None of those animals are domesticated in the sense a dog or a cat or say, a goat or a horse is. Those animals have been selectively bred and refined thousands of years before anyone even considered about carrying tortoises in pet shops.

That is the difference.

---

The reason many folks get worked over it is because of the issue of preserving biodiversity. It was touched on somewhat in another thread. For an example, let's look at box turtles.

To set the stage, be aware that there are two main species of America box turtle (at least commonly kept as pets anyway): Terrapene carolina sp (the "common" box turtle) and T. ornata sp (the "Western" box turtles).

Within those two species, there are a few sub-species. For instance, under T. carolina, we have (just to name a few):
- T. c. carolina (Eastern box turtle)
- T. c. triunguis (three-toed box turtle)
- T. c. bauri (Florida BT)
- T. c. major (Gulf Coast BT)

Now all of those sub-species look distinctly different from each other, and likewise, are distinctly genetically differnet on the genetic level as well (hence the taxonomy). Be that as it may, throughout much of the eastern U.S., there are a few places where the ranges of these sub-species occasionally overlap. Intergrades are rare, but for the most part, these sub-species have remained distinct for thousands of years.
-----

It should also be noted that localities are very distinct as well. For example, the grey rat snakes and eastern box turtles here in southern Alabama are very different looking from the grey rat snakes and eastern BTs in say, South Carolina. Same exact species, but they look very different. As a BT enthusiast, I want to preserve the bloodlines of the eastern box turtles from southern AL because they look very distinct from other easterns. But this becomes difficult when dealers can't tell me the origin of the box turtles they are selling. And then, some people just keep hordes of BTs in a large pen, regardless of species, and let them all breed together.

In the grand scheme of things, if people aren't careful and watching what they're doing, its possible the niche market for southern Alabama locality eastern box turtles get smaller and smaller, to the point where no one knows how to get them anymore (as collection laws are more restrictive with each passing day). Do you see where I'm going with this?

I got friends who keep eastern kingsnakes and greyband kingsnakes. They are diehard purists. If the snakes didn't come from the same zipcode, they won't pair them together! A little extreme, but you see my point on why it is important to preserve localities and pure bloodlines.

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

^^Good job, Student.

Yes, all dog breeds are simply domesticated wolves (one species, Canis lupus). Moreover, the giant breeds like Danes didn't always look like that. The ancestor of the Great Dane was the German boar hound, used to hunt wild pigs. However, the boar hound did not weigh 150 lbs! It weighed only about 90 lbs, a weight at which dogs can be large and strong without losing their agility or vitality. Great Danes may look cool (insert definition of "cool" here), but their appearance comes from human caprice, not real-world needs.

Yag: of course horse blood didn't get "polluted" by donkey blood via mules; mules are usually sterile, and although hinnies can be fertile, the demand for true horses is high. However, the domestication of the horse did lead to the extinction of all wild horses except the Przewalskii wild horse (Equus ferus przewalskii). All the other subspecies: gone. Ditto for the domestication of cattle - their wild ancestor, the aurochs, has been extinct for 400 years. And today bison conservation is much harder, because people did try crossing cattle with bison, and some of it stuck. Today, most bison have cattle introgression, and that's a real obstacle to bison restoration. As for ligers, well, it's illegal to keep a huge carnivore as a pet, and in the wild ligers can't do what each of their parent species can. Again, bad choice.

As for these leopard x tortoise hybrids, it's bad enough that sulcata and leopard tortoises are different species. But as Student said, we're trying to conserve these animals, not mess with them.

The point is this: why can't humans leave well enough alone? Sure, some meddling is inevitable. After all, we share the planet with other creatures, and they share it with us. We have to find some way to coexist, and that means adapting. But the trouble with us humans is that we think that just because we can do a thing, it necessarily follows that we should do a thing (JP). Sure we can breed animals in all these weird ways, crossing some, inbreeding others. But why? Just to show how clever we are? Not a good reason. Unless there's some external justification (like a last ditch effort to prevent extinction), then we should not be forcing these other animals to hybridize or inbreed. It's not healthy for them, and it's not right for us.

 

[yagyujubei]

^^Good job, Student.

Yes, all dog breeds are simply domesticated wolves (one species, Canis lupus). Moreover, the giant breeds like Danes didn't always look like that. The ancestor of the Great Dane was the German boar hound, used to hunt wild pigs. However, the boar hound did not weigh 150 lbs! It weighed only about 90 lbs, a weight at which dogs can be large and strong without losing their agility or vitality. Great Danes may look cool (insert definition of "cool" here), but their appearance comes from human caprice, not real-world needs.

Yag: of course horse blood didn't get "polluted" by donkey blood via mules; mules are usually sterile, and although hinnies can be fertile, the demand for true horses is high. However, the domestication of the horse did lead to the extinction of all wild horses except the Przewalskii wild horse (Equus ferus przewalskii). All the other subspecies: gone. Ditto for the domestication of cattle - their wild ancestor, the aurochs, has been extinct for 400 years. And today bison conservation is much harder, because people did try crossing cattle with bison, and some of it stuck. Today, most bison have cattle introgression, and that's a real obstacle to bison restoration. As for ligers, well, it's illegal to keep a huge carnivore as a pet, and in the wild ligers can't do what each of their parent species can. Again, bad choice.

As for these leopard x tortoise hybrids, it's bad enough that sulcata and leopard tortoises are different species. But as Student said, we're trying to conserve these animals, not mess with them.

The point is this: why can't humans leave well enough alone? Sure, some meddling is inevitable. After all, we share the planet with other creatures, and they share it with us. We have to find some way to coexist, and that means adapting. But the trouble with us humans is that we think that just because we can do a thing, it necessarily follows that we should do a thing (JP). Sure we can breed animals in all these weird ways, crossing some, inbreeding others. But why? Just to show how clever we are? Not a good reason. Unless there's some external justification (like a last ditch effort to prevent extinction), then we should not be forcing these other animals to hybridize or inbreed. It's not healthy for them, and it's not right for us.

Well eventhough your answer to my post seems concise and factual, much of what you said is merely conjecture, and some is simply not true.

Dogs are not "domesticated wolves" they are not canis lupus. They are their own distinct species, very different from their progenitors.
New evidence says that horses were domesticated over 9000 years ago. I have seen no evidence that says that their emergence led to the decline of wild equines.Same thing with the aurochs, hunting was the cause of their extinction. The last herd lived in Poland in the 1400's, protected by the king. There is evidence thast says that aurochs were pitted in the roman arenas.
Your whole objection seems to be based on the assumption that these tortoise hybrids are fertile. What makes you think that. Most hybrid animals are not able to reproduce naturally. I suspect, though, that even if they do prove to be infertile, you would still object.Your entire argument seems to be against any scientific study or advances. Your way of thinking seems a little narrow minded to me. If you think that beefalos raised in the seventies are the reason wild bison don't roam everywhere anymore, I'm just not sure where they are supposed to roam. I think it just might have something to do with the government attempt to kill the indians in the 1800's, followed by the large western cattle ranches unwilling to share their almost free leases of government land with the native bison. I'm just sayin'