Hybrid, Leopcata?

[N2TORTS]

Very well said Geo and great writing skills to boot …. ( both you and Mark are superb writers) Also a classy debate …..and Like I’ve said before your “ one smart cookie” With a lot of folks learning I’m sure!
I still wonder though if such a different species , than why are they able to produce offspring? I guess what drew my interests to them years back . I have herd of a radi x RF but no “ hard” proof. RFx YF common ….and much of the Leo’s today are washed genes…. Aren’t those different species ( that would have different DNA but produced offsprings) or in the Leo case sub species….?
Darwin once wrote … “No one definition has satisfied all naturalists; yet every naturalist knows vaguely what he means when he speaks of a species. Generally the term includes the unknown element of a distinct act of creation.”

JD~

Thank you. You're a smart cookie, too. I think we're now getting to the important aspects of this debate, which are, 1) if these animals can hybridize, then why not let them? And 2) If we let them, what harm can come from it? Allow me to repeat one line from your passage above:

"I still wonder though if such a different species , than why are they able to produce offspring?"


Within a given species, mating results in some degree of interbreeding. Not everybody mates with everyone else, obviously, but enough mixing goes on to keep the species together as a unit. That is, to prevent evolution into another species. However, sometimes populations split up for one reason or another (migration, famine, drought, new landscape features, whatever). If the separation is short, then the two populations may get back together and continue interbreeding. In that case, no speciation will occur. However, if the separation persists, and the two populations remain separate for a long time (thousands to millions of years), then they will eventually start evolving in different directions. New colors or morphologies may arise, new physiological traits may evolve, and new mating rituals may appear. Then, depending on how long the separation continues, if they ever meet again, individuals from one population will probably not choose to mate with those from another, even if they are still genetically compatible to one degree or another.

This lack of compatibility could have more significance than just mating. The two populations may have just drifted apart, in which case hybridization probably wouldn't have an impact on fitness. However, there could be more to it than that: the two populations may have become adapted to new conditions since their divergence.

Now thats what I'm talking about!......Great info on the entire post ~

JD~

 

[chairman]

I've had two questions since I first heard of these guys.

The first, are the hybrids like ligers/tigons where it matters who mom/dad are in terms of how they will turn out? For example, could a mixture of male sulcata to female leopard create an aldabra-sized hybrid because the 'growth stopping gene' gets shut off but a male leopard and female sulcata create hybrids similar in size to their parents?

The second, it appears to be much more difficult to raise an unpyramided leopard vs a sulcata... where do the hybrids fit in?

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

I've had two questions since I first heard of these guys.

The first, are the hybrids like ligers/tigons where it matters who mom/dad are in terms of how they will turn out? For example, could a mixture of male sulcata to female leopard create an aldabra-sized hybrid because the 'growth stopping gene' gets shut off but a male leopard and female sulcata create hybrids similar in size to their parents?

Probably not, since tortoises have temperature-dependent sex determination, as opposed to chromosomal sex determination. In other words, male and female tortoises can have the same genes. Not so with mammals, where females have two X chromosomes, and males have an X and a Y.

The second, it appears to be much more difficult to raise an unpyramided leopard vs a sulcata... where do the hybrids fit in?

I don't know. JD, any observations about this yet?

 

[N2TORTS]

I've had two questions since I first heard of these guys.

The first, are the hybrids like ligers/tigons where it matters who mom/dad are in terms of how they will turn out? For example, could a mixture of male sulcata to female leopard create an aldabra-sized hybrid because the 'growth stopping gene' gets shut off but a male leopard and female sulcata create hybrids similar in size to their parents?

Probably not, since tortoises have temperature-dependent sex determination, as opposed to chromosomal sex determination. In other words, male and female tortoises can have the same genes. Not so with mammals, where females have two X chromosomes, and males have an X and a Y.

The second, it appears to be much more difficult to raise an unpyramided leopard vs a sulcata... where do the hybrids fit in?

I don't know. JD, any observations about this yet?

Well you guys ...great question ! .. I also believe its more of a tendency for Leo's to pyramid than Sullies. Rather Wild or Captive... I have seen both . " In the wild " and here at home. Anyhow , one of the Lep's for sure has more attributes of a Leo's make-up ex : Shell Shape, head size and legs...also scales are different and yes this particular one is slightly more pyramided than the other ...( now grant it my torts are treated like a 5month old baby with about 4-5 hours a day involvement taking care of them, Feeding , cleaning, yard work ..and just plain "gazing" at how amazing these creatures are. Of course this accounts for all 20+ in the collection at present.) So I know they receive the utmost care in diet and “water times” and housing . Development has been very interesting since I know they are kept and treated the same way. They are by far one of the most attractive " desert type torts" I have seen. Both are growing machines and have surpassed the white Leo in size and about half the age. Of the two, the more sullie one is also the brute of the two. Bigger in size and personality ....both to date have shown extreme transformations and the likeness of both of the species involved, as well as a pure joy to interact with . I told myself I wouldn’t share anymore pics of them ...because of all the harshness and comments made. The funny thing though .....is the folks who can’t stand the idea are the first ones' to open the thread and look! So rather people (Generalized) find it a " wrong doing " Human nature still puts the brain into overload and intrigues us when out of the ordinary things happen and " proof " it can happen. Rather being man made or natural .
Again for the record I did not breed /hatch these but acquired them at 3 weeks old ….and glad I did so~ :shy:


JD~

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

I told myself I wouldn’t share anymore pics of them ...because of all the harshness and comments made. The funny thing though .....is the folks who can’t stand the idea are the first ones' to open the thread and look! So rather people (Generalized) find it a " wrong doing " Human nature still puts the brain into overload and intrigues us when out of the ordinary things happen and " proof " it can happen. Rather being man made or natural .
Again for the record I did not breed /hatch these but acquired them at 3 weeks old ….and glad I did so~ :shy:


JD~

I feel bad about this, as I am one of the ones to have jumped down your throat. As you know, I think hybridization is a bad idea. But you have them, you didn't breed them, and you care for them. Personally, and setting aside my regard for them as cute (if odd) tortoises, at this point I regard them as an interesting experiment. Not one that should really be repeated, but one that is valuable nonetheless. I, for one, hope you continue to post pix of your little hybrids and document how they're doing.

 

[DrewsLife727]

Very interesting. aLl views. The part of life is everyone has the free will to have their own opinion and that should be respected. Thats what makes us human! JD's torts are interesting and Id love to see updates on these guys as much as I can!

 

[N2TORTS]

I told myself I wouldn’t share anymore pics of them ...because of all the harshness and comments made. The funny thing though .....is the folks who can’t stand the idea are the first ones' to open the thread and look! So rather people (Generalized) find it a " wrong doing " Human nature still puts the brain into overload and intrigues us when out of the ordinary things happen and " proof " it can happen. Rather being man made or natural .
Again for the record I did not breed /hatch these but acquired them at 3 weeks old ….and glad I did so~ :shy:


JD~

I feel bad about this, as I am one of the ones to have jumped down your throat. As you know, I think hybridization is a bad idea. But you have them, you didn't breed them, and you care for them. Personally, and setting aside my regard for them as cute (if odd) tortoises, at this point I regard them as an interesting experiment. Not one that should really be repeated, but one that is valuable nonetheless. I, for one, hope you continue to post pix of your little hybrids and document how they're doing.

Well Geo ... it's all good ...plus I think alot of folks learned some great info during this thread ...I did !.....Your a very smart man and I can appreciate that ....plus like you mentioned this was a "hands on" chance of a lifetime.. to accurately provide some detailed developments and factual information about the hybrids . I do keep very detailed records and I sorta like to take pictures .. ( ha ha ) ...
Anyhow ... thanks for the encouragement and words ...... and stay tuned for the updates.
" Have a great tort~n Day "
JD~

---

Very interesting. aLl views. The part of life is everyone has the free will to have their own opinion and that should be respected. Thats what makes us human! JD's torts are interesting and Id love to see updates on these guys as much as I can!

Well Mr. Drew ... "well said" and I'm sure you'll see more of them ~
Peace~


JD~

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

I'm most curious about if these hybrids will be able to reproduce, and if so, will it only be females, only males, or will it be both.

Also, how large will they grow, and if there'll be other interesting developements as they mature.

Lots to learn here...it'd be interesting to track this info from as many Leopcata owners as possible, to gain a fuller understanding.

 

[redfoot7]

This is a good thread. A lot of good info. I'm personally against it but if there was a species to experiment with it would be the sulcata. They are so over bred that i can't see this affecting the captive gene pool. And as far as ethics go, I can't see how these are any worse than breeding normal sulcatas for a profit. There are way too many as it is. At the rate they are going, you'll be able to get one for $25 in a couple years, and larger majority won't be properly cared for. Similar situation as green iguanas 10 years ago. Just my opinion.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

This is a good thread. A lot of good info. I'm personally against it but if there was a species to experiment with it would be the sulcata. They are so over bred that i can't see this affecting the captive gene pool. And as far as ethics go, I can't see how these are any worse than breeding normal sulcatas for a profit. There are way too many as it is. At the rate they are going, you'll be able to get one for $25 in a couple years, and larger majority won't be properly cared for. Similar situation as green iguanas 10 years ago. Just my opinion.

You make some very valid points. And, add to that list Burmese pythons.