Hibernation

[Martellone]

Good evening everyone.
My father's marginated tortoise, which until a week ago was still going out every day despite the period, finally decided to hibernate, fortunately in the house, given the sudden drop in temperatures. The problem is that it has buried itself very little and at night the temperature reaches around 0°C. During the day it still rises to 8-9°C.The breeder who gave it to me says to cover it with leaves and not to worry but his breeding farm is in the plains and not in the mountains (where my father has the tort). Where I keep him the temperature even reaches -5/-6°C in winter,rarely lower . Do you think covering it with leaves would be enough?I'm a little worried because it's the first year I got him and I have no experience with hibernation.

PS I took the photo with the roof of the house open

Thanks

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Don’t suppose you’ve check out this thread?

Tom's Brumation Thread

Every fall we get bombarded here on the forum with all sorts of questions and problems regarding hibernation and tortoises "slowing down" for winter. The purpose of this thread is to talk about all aspects of this subject, to dispel some of the myths and mysteries, and give a "how to" list of...

tortoiseforum.org

Hopefully @Tom might be able to answer your questions here!

 

[Tom]

Good evening everyone.
My father's marginated tortoise, which until a week ago was still going out every day despite the period, finally decided to hibernate, fortunately in the house, given the sudden drop in temperatures. The problem is that it has buried itself very little and at night the temperature reaches around 0°C. During the day it still rises to 8-9°C.The breeder who gave it to me says to cover it with leaves and not to worry but his breeding farm is in the plains and not in the mountains (where my father has the tort). Where I keep him the temperature even reaches -5/-6°C in winter,rarely lower . Do you think covering it with leaves would be enough?I'm a little worried because it's the first year I got him and I have no experience with hibernation.

PS I took the photo with the roof of the house open

Thanks

Marignated tortoise don't brumate. Most people that have them don't brumate them. You need a large heated and well lit enclosure indoors for winter. Some seasonal temperature and lighting variation is good for them, but not brumation according to people who know the species better than I do.

 

[Martellone]

Marignated tortoise don't brumate. Most people that have them don't brumate them. You need a large heated and well lit enclosure indoors for winter. Some seasonal temperature and lighting variation is good for them, but not brumation according to people who know the species better than I do.

Sorry Tom but i don't agree at all..i understand that for you in america the marginata is an exotic as is my carbonaria here but the Marginata in nature hibernates. I don't understand why you recommend going against nature and not letting it do it. In italy, the place of origin of the sardinian marginata, in Sardinia they regularly hibernate..there however the winters are a little less harsh than here in the mountains

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

It seems, that in the wild they exhibit behaviours similar to brumation:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/373683082_Testudo_marginata_Schoepff_1793_-_Marginated_Tortoise_Kraspedochelona_Breshka_Malore_Testuggine_Marginata

It doesn't look like a true brumation when tortoise is inactive through the whole period. However, they stop eating, empty their intestines and slow down and seek shelter. But in some regions they come out to bask even in near-zero temperatures in February.

They seem to be extremely resilient to freezing temperatures as well.

And as I can tell European and some US keepers tend to brumate them (at least, provide proper fastening period and cool shelter in winter).

 

[Martellone]

Yes in Sardinia the climate is better than North italy and in february often temperatures are good. But, talking with 2 breeders of North italy, including the one that sell me the tort, both hibernate naturally the tort in their houses outside. And they tell me that in these years of climate change, sometimes with 2-3 day of 15-16 °C in the center of the winter they tend to come out from houses to bask, for this reason, to avoid them accidentally staying outside and freezing later, they told me to close the door of the houses.
But both are in Pianura padana at 200-300 m on the sea. My father live in mountain at 950 m on the sea..The climate is a bit different.
I was following the breeder's instructions but the fact that it hasn't been buried and that next week they are calling -5/-6°C has alarmed me.

Last night I found the guide on HermanniChris's website that involves controlled hibernation and I think I will proceed like this

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Yes in Sardinia the climate is better than North italy and in february often temperatures are good. But, talking with 2 breeders of North italy, including the one that sell me the tort, both hibernate naturally the tort in their houses outside. And they tell me that in these years of climate change, sometimes with 2-3 day of 15-16 °C in the center of the winter they tend to come out from houses to bask, for this reason, to avoid them accidentally staying outside and freezing later, they told me to close the door of the houses.
But both are in Pianura padana at 200-300 m on the sea. My father live in mountain at 950 m on the sea..The climate is a bit different.
I was following the breeder's instructions but the fact that it hasn't been buried and that next week they are calling -5/-6°C has alarmed me.

Last night I found the guide on HermanniChris's website that involves controlled hibernation and I think I will proceed like this

Try to make sure that the temperatures in the box don't drop under 0C. How about fasting, did you have a fasting period?

 

[Martellone]

Yes, I think he doesn't eat from about 3 weeks..because he stay in a big garden of about 10x10 m but since the start of october i closed the area near the house
to avoid it getting buried in some part of the garden where I wouldn't find it. And even if put to the sun in the last few weeks it hasn't eaten anymore

 

[Tom]

Sorry Tom but i don't agree at all..i understand that for you in america the marginata is an exotic as is my carbonaria here but the Marginata in nature hibernates. I don't understand why you recommend going against nature and not letting it do it. In italy, the place of origin of the sardinian marginata, in Sardinia they regularly hibernate..there however the winters are a little less harsh than here in the mountains

There is nothing to agree or disagree with in my post. I am merely pointing out what people who keep this species do or don't do.

Further, I do not advocate against nature. I am one of the people over here that tell people that species that brumate in the wild should be brumated in captivity. There seems to be some disagreement in the marginata keeping community about whether or not they brumate in the wild, and whether or not they should be brumated in captivity. All of the marginata keepers that I have talked to tell me that they do not brumate their marginata and do not think the species should be brumated. I have no dog in this fight. I don't keep this species. I passed on the info that I have been given by people who do in an effort to help you.

If you decide that you want to do it, there is a step by step plan for you in post number 2 of this thread.

 

[Martellone]

There is nothing to agree or disagree with in my post. I am merely pointing out what people who keep this species do or don't do.

Further, I do not advocate against nature. I am one of the people over here that tell people that species that brumate in the wild should be brumated in captivity. There seems to be some disagreement in the marginata keeping community about whether or not they brumate in the wild, and whether or not they should be brumated in captivity. All of the marginata keepers that I have talked to tell me that they do not brumate their marginata and do not think the species should be brumated. I have no dog in this fight. I don't keep this species. I passed on the info that I have been given by people who do in an effort to help you.

If you decide that you want to do it, there is a step by step plan for you in post number 2 of this thread.

Thanks Tom, sorry for the somewhat decisive response.But here in Italy there is no breeder who keeps them awake indoors in the winter, they let nature take its course. I was worried because he "fell asleep" by burying himself only 2 cm and since it is colder here than where he grew up, I didn't feel like leaving him outside. But for the previous 7 years he has always hibernated outside.Then maybe I'm a bit apprehensive.
Think that in the town above my father's, at 1100 m above sea level, there is a Greek tortoise that has been there for 70 years in a large garden.His owners died 10 years ago and yet he does everything by himself, including hibernation, and continues to live peacefully.

Then mine is a tortoise that has always lived outdoors and this year since I brought him to my father he has had a huge space to live in, if I brought him indoors in an enclosure I think he would go crazy.In the end, since the temperature was already at 0 yesterday evening, I decided to move him to the attic in a box with soil and leaves on top. I monitored the temperatures and at the moment they are between 6.2°C in the morning and 9 in the afternoon.Just think that in the move from the garden house to the attic he didn't move at all, he's all withdrawn inside his shell

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Maybe @HermanniChris can explain different approaches to overwintering Marginated tortoises and give some advice.

Also, this site has very detailed description of preparations for brumation: https://www.marginata.dk/Artikler/vinterhi.htm (it's in Dutch, but with auto-translate it's readable). One key point: don't let them stay in freezing temperatures, 4-6C is optimal.

 

[mark1]

It doesn't look like a true brumation when tortoise is inactive through the whole period.

brumating turtles/tortoises, at least from what i've seen and read , are all active during "brumation", even in colder temperate locations....i can't say for sure as i'm not familiar with "hibernation", but responding to enviromental temperature changes might be why it's called brumation...... temperatures in every temperate place in the world fluctuate, especially during fall and spring, warm spells and cold spells are natural world wide........

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

brumating turtles/tortoises, at least from what i've seen and read , are all active during "brumation", even in colder temperate locations....i can't say for sure as i'm not familiar with "hibernation", but responding to enviromental temperature changes might be why it's called brumation...... temperatures in every temperate place in the world fluctuate, especially during fall and spring, warm spells and cold spells are natural world wide........

Valid. Just paper on Marginateds mentions that they might have some sort of winter dormancy state different from brumation and often get out for basking even in near zero temperatures. I'm not very familiar with brumation behavior of turtles and other tortoise species, maybe they do the same.

 

[Martellone]

Maybe @HermanniChris can explain different approaches to overwintering Marginated tortoises and give some advice.

Also, this site has very detailed description of preparations for brumation: https://www.marginata.dk/Artikler/vinterhi.htm (it's in Dutch, but with auto-translate it's readable). One key point: don't let them stay in freezing temperatures, 4-6C is optimal.

I read the article..thanks..very very interesting and complete..reading the article, the method and timing are like that is described on hermannichris website, fortunately i have done all the things correctly and in time.

 

[Tom]

Thanks Tom, sorry for the somewhat decisive response.But here in Italy there is no breeder who keeps them awake indoors in the winter, they let nature take its course. I was worried because he "fell asleep" by burying himself only 2 cm and since it is colder here than where he grew up, I didn't feel like leaving him outside. But for the previous 7 years he has always hibernated outside.Then maybe I'm a bit apprehensive.
Think that in the town above my father's, at 1100 m above sea level, there is a Greek tortoise that has been there for 70 years in a large garden.His owners died 10 years ago and yet he does everything by himself, including hibernation, and continues to live peacefully.

Then mine is a tortoise that has always lived outdoors and this year since I brought him to my father he has had a huge space to live in, if I brought him indoors in an enclosure I think he would go crazy.In the end, since the temperature was already at 0 yesterday evening, I decided to move him to the attic in a box with soil and leaves on top. I monitored the temperatures and at the moment they are between 6.2°C in the morning and 9 in the afternoon.Just think that in the move from the garden house to the attic he didn't move at all, he's all withdrawn inside his shell

Most people over here do brumate the Greek tortoise subspecies, and all of the hermanni subspecies too, including the Italian ones. For whatever reason, they think of the marginated differently.

You including your info from the natural range of the species is helpful and appreciated. This is how we all learn.

I think our climates are fairly similar. Letting nature take its course here and leaving them outside to fend for themselves often results in death here. The weather and climate is just too unpredictable and too inconsistent. Our captive enclosures are not the wild, and whatever it is they do to survive in the wild sometimes does not or can not happen in a captive situation. I have experimented with this over the years, and learned the hard way through my own experiences and the experiences of others to NOT let nature takes its course and leave them outside to figure it out for themselves. That is why I typed up the brumation thread that was linked for you in post number two above.

 

[mark1]

Valid. Just paper on Marginateds mentions that they might have some sort of winter dormancy state different from brumation and often get out for basking even in near zero temperatures. I'm not very familiar with brumation behavior of turtles and other tortoise species, maybe they do the same.

yes, they all do. if they're out to bask, my personal opinion is it's good for them as long as they go back when it gets cold again, when the air is colder than the ground ...... i've seen turtles out in every month of the year in zones 6a-5b, if the air is warmer than the water they'll spend the night out of the water........

i have read the same about desert and gopher tortoises being seen out basking in every month of the year.....

 

[Martellone]

Most people over here do brumate the Greek tortoise subspecies, and all of the hermanni subspecies too, including the Italian ones. For whatever reason, they think of the marginated differently.

You including your info from the natural range of the species is helpful and appreciated. This is how we all learn.

I think our climates are fairly similar. Letting nature take its course here and leaving them outside to fend for themselves often results in death here. The weather and climate is just too unpredictable and too inconsistent. Our captive enclosures are not the wild, and whatever it is they do to survive in the wild sometimes does not or can not happen in a captive situation. I have experimented with this over the years, and learned the hard way through my own experiences and the experiences of others to NOT let nature takes its course and leave them outside to figure it out for themselves. That is why I typed up the brumation thread that was linked for you in post number two above.

Yes I have read the thread thanks. The differences with your procedure are that since I wanted to leave it in the garden in the shed to overwinter I didn't do anything but fortunately thanks to the gradual drop in temperature it stopped feeding itself in time and discharged itself... having had to change the method thinked I didn't get a fridge but fortunately the attic of the house isn't heated but it is well insulated and the temperatures remain within the necessary range.

 

[Martellone]

yes, they all do. if they're out to bask, my personal opinion is it's good for them as long as they go back when it gets cold again, when the air is colder than the ground ...... i've seen turtles out in every month of the year in zones 6a-5b, if the air is warmer than the water they'll spend the night out of the water........

i have read the same about desert and gopher tortoises being seen out basking in every month of the year.....

In fact, some breeders told me that they close the doors of the houses during the winter because it happened that some of them went out to bask but were unable to return to the house in time and died from the cold. With climate change there it happens that in jenuary or february you may have 1 or 2 days with 20 °C degrees and then nights with temperatures under 0 with frost.

 

[mark1]

In fact, some breeders told me that they close the doors of the houses during the winter because it happened that some of them went out to bask but were unable to return to the house in time and died from the cold. With climate change there it happens that in jenuary or february you may have 1 or 2 days with 20 °C degrees and then nights with temperatures under 0 with frost.

the only thing i think of that could possibly kill a healthy turtle or tortoise pertaining to hibernation is freezing to death..... i do not believe brumating is stressful to them in any way...... the chances of them starving to death i'd imagine is zero, ... i just pulled 3 brumating box turtles out of a pond today, the water was probably 40-50 degrees, can you imagine what their metabolism is? they don't even need to breath, i doubt they're gonna starve........... imo to kill one due to hibernation you would need to hibernate one very sick, very anorexic turtle or tortoise, and do it very poorly........... from what i've read marginated tortoises have a freeze tolerance similar to N.A. box turtles......

 

[Tom]

the only thing i think of that could possibly kill a healthy turtle or tortoise pertaining to hibernation is freezing to death..... i do not believe brumating is stressful to them in any way...... the chances of them starving to death i'd imagine is zero, ... i just pulled 3 brumating box turtles out of a pond today, the water was probably 40-50 degrees, can you imagine what their metabolism is? they don't even need to breath, i doubt they're gonna starve........... imo to kill one due to hibernation you would need to hibernate one very sick, very anorexic turtle or tortoise, and do it very poorly........... from what i've read marginated tortoises have a freeze tolerance similar to N.A. box turtles......

What kills them here is inconsistent temperatures. 80 degree winter warm spells followed by 50 degree days and 30 degree nights.