Help, Leopard in Dire Straights

[Kasia]

Vet claimed she'd need more poo than I've ever seen come out of the leopard to run a full workup. The leopards poo doesn't stay together at all and looks hardly digested at all, comes apart immediately in water, she always goes when soaked. The vet did look at what she was able to swap off her under the microscope but said that wouldn't catch everything.
Since I had the one that was doing so well I thought if he started doing not as well then it would be worms, and will have spread between them....but he was fine when he escaped.

Get a fresh sample to a "normal" vet - parasites are not that hard to distinguish... even cat's and dog vet will do it. My Leo has the same problem reoccurring. Read this thread:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/ernie.136677/
Mine when it's healthy does floaters and a bit of dissolving ones - when it comes to a solid ground poops if their not holding up in pieces and you think it looks loose it's probably loose.
And it's exactly what I'm talking about. Get a fresh stool sample ASAP to herbivorous creature Vet, maybe that's it (some parasites are not detectable in and old dry out sample)
Good luck

 

[Sara G.]

I had the leo first. I feel like I would have quarantined them, but am honestly having a hard time remembering.
The leo hasn't gained any weight since I started weighing her in like February, for that matter neither had the other two. She's only about 25g....with the sullys at 38ish and 50ish (escapee).

Considering that the quarantine time should be at least 6 months, I think you would remember this.
So I'm presuming that you didn't quarantine.
Personally I would separate them asap since the Leo is doing so poorly. You don't want your other sully to get sick.

However, since there were issues from your last tort from the particular breeder, I get the feeling that it has to do with how the torts were raised before you got them.

I would definitely try to get a good fecal sample from your tort and see if there are any parasites or worms. And definitely work on separating the two of them.

 

[kywilli2063]

Get a fresh sample to a "normal" vet - parasites are not that hard to distinguish... even cat's and dog vet will do it. My Leo has the same problem reoccurring. Read this thread:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/ernie.136677/
Mine when it's healthy does floaters and a bit of dissolving ones - when it comes to a solid ground poops if their not holding up in pieces and you think it looks loose it's probably loose.
And it's exactly what I'm talking about. Get a fresh stool sample ASAP to herbivorous creature Vet, maybe that's it (some parasites are not detectable in and old dry out sample)
Good luck

I went through that thread, I had actually been through most of it before. The question, can I worm them without proof positive and be ok? Or have a reasonable chance of not killing them. I'll take a few pics just for help here. I know you can get the worming stuff from tractor supply, just have to dilute it out for a tort. I have been to the only vet I'm aware of in the area even claiming they'll see tortoises, and as I said before, far less than helpful, so I'm not inclined to waste almost the purchase price of the tort again.

 

[kywilli2063]

 

[kywilli2063]

They actually both opened their eyes immediately just now when I got them out.
The Leopard is Morla and the Sully is Zephyr

 

[Kasia]

I went through that thread, I had actually been through most of it before. The question, can I worm them without proof positive and be ok? Or have a reasonable chance of not killing them. I'll take a few pics just for help here. I know you can get the worming stuff from tractor supply, just have to dilute it out for a tort. I have been to the only vet I'm aware of in the area even claiming they'll see tortoises, and as I said before, far less than helpful, so I'm not inclined to waste almost the purchase price of the tort again.

For different parasites there are different deworming agents and using stuff without confirmation it's 1 on 10 chance of not harming your torts. Search "Veterinary Diagnostic Services" in your area. You don't need a consult for a fecal sample (it will be cheaper that way). If they will find something go to Your Vet for meds/dosing schedule. Both your torts don't look lethargic and that is a plus. Leo looks very skinny and that's not a good thing. Sometimes proper medical care is needed as a must and you can't do nothing about it.

 

[kywilli2063]

For different parasites there are different deworming agents and using stuff without confirmation it's 1 on 10 chance of not harming your torts. Search "Veterinary Diagnostic Services" in your area. You don't need a consult for a fecal sample (it will be cheaper that way). If they will find something go to Your Vet for meds/dosing schedule. Both your torts don't look lethargic and that is a plus. Leo looks very skinny and that's not a good thing. Sometimes proper medical care is needed as a must and you can't do nothing about it.

There are no reptile vets here, I've said this, more than once. The leopard doesn't poop enough to run a full send off fecal sample. I know there are people on here that self treat their animals, most things are not that hard. If those people don't want to share that knowledge to save a tort....well I don't know what to say to that. It's beyond absurd that it costs the same to take my 150 pound rottweiler that cost 900 dollars in as it does a hatchling tortoise that cost about the same as the price of the visit.
AS said before, the vet that was seen looked at swaps from Morla's rump under the microscope. Nothing above and beyond that is even possible given the lack of volume in the poo.

 

[Rue]

.... It's beyond absurd that it costs the same to take my 150 pound rottweiler that cost 900 dollars in as it does a hatchling tortoise that cost about the same as the price of the visit.
....

I don't think the price of the animal figures into the cost of the care.

But if you need to justify the cost of animal care how about considering paying more for an animal that can live 100 year versus one that lives 12?

 

[kywilli2063]

I don't think the price of the animal figures into the cost of the care.

But if you need to justify the cost of animal care how about considering paying more for an animal that can live 100 year versus one that lives 12?

Regardless, it's a moot issue there are no vets that know what they're talking about with regard to torts here.

 

[Sara G.]

Did you separate your two hatchlings?

We can see if @deadheadvet has any advice for your Leo.
I do agree that it looks very skinny and it appears as though it's very very young.

I don't remember if you had talked to the breeder about the conditions your Leo was in before coming to you or not. But that might be very telling.

 

[kywilli2063]

Did you separate your two hatchlings?

We can see if @deadheadvet has any advice for your Leo.
I do agree that it looks very skinny and it appears as though it's very very young.

I don't remember if you had talked to the breeder about the conditions your Leo was in before coming to you or not. But that might be very telling.

All I know about the Leo from the breeder is that he only had one, seemed fine when I got him. I'll take a picture of her poo here when I soak em...when I say loose I'm not sure you guys are grasping the full magnitude of it. I've had her since january so she had to have been hatched before that obviously.

I really don't have the resources to separate them at the moment. I had a backup ceramic but the first one.....melted a couple weeks ago. They've been together for months, if this is something communicable and transferable between species I don't see how there's any chance they both don't have it.

 

[Kasia]

All I know about the Leo from the breeder is that he only had one, seemed fine when I got him. I'll take a picture of her poo here when I soak em...when I say loose I'm not sure you guys are grasping the full magnitude of it. I've had her since january so she had to have been hatched before that obviously.

I really don't have the resources to separate them at the moment. I had a backup ceramic but the first one.....melted a couple weeks ago. They've been together for months, if this is something communicable and transferable between species I don't see how there's any chance they both don't have it.

Breeders in your area should know a reptile specialist or at least have knowledge on how to deworm properly. If You never injected anything to a little skinny critter like your leo you should not do it on your own (huge risk that you will puncture his bladder, lung or god knows what depending on the site of injection). Please contact reptile breeders in your area. If your desperate you will find dosing and regime for different meds on the internet but I would not recommend to give them even orally without a consult - there is a risk of liquid aspiration.

 

[Sara G.]

Personally when one animal-of any species-is not doing well, it's better to separate it from another so it has adequate time to recover at its own pace.
It could be stressed out from sharing an enclosure with another tortoise and that could have a negative effect on your Leo's recovery.
Separating the two makes it easier for you to keep an eye on your Leo and make sure that it is getting everything it needs to do well.
Where are you located?

 

[JoesMum]

My suspicion is that the main bully was the recent escapee - the only one that thrived. These two weren't in a state to recover quickly.

Of course, now that one has escaped a new pecking order has to be established - more change to stress already stressed torts. I too recommend separation.

I hear what you say about the problems with collecting a poop sample.

If you do get one, any vet, herp-qualified or not, can check for parasites. Some labs even do it by mail - typically you send off for a kit to pack the sample and send it back to them. Panacur is the treatment used by many on here for gut parasites; both torts have to be treated as they're kept together.

Parasites may be the cause of loose stools, but a diet lacking fiber is another.

I recommend
- separation
- be super-sure of temperatures. If you don't have a temperature gun, get one
- improving fiber content of diet.

 

[kywilli2063]

Where are you located?

Near Las Cruces NM.

 

[kywilli2063]

My suspicion is that the main bully was the recent escapee - the only one that thrived. These two weren't in a state to recover quickly.

Of course, now that one has escaped a new pecking order has to be established - more change to stress already stressed torts. I too recommend separation.

I hear what you say about the problems with collecting a poop sample.

If you do get one, any vet, herp-qualified or not, can check for parasites. Some labs even do it by mail - typically you send off for a kit to pack the sample and send it back to them. Panacur is the treatment used by many on here for gut parasites; both torts have to be treated as they're kept together.

Parasites may be the cause of loose stools, but a diet lacking fiber is another.

I recommend
- separation
- be super-sure of temperatures. If you don't have a temperature gun, get one
- improving fiber content of diet.

So It actually seemed to me almost the other way around....he was named flipper bc I found him flipped in there twice, I kinda thought he flipped himself though. Also he would go off in the far end of the cage to sleep away from the other two. I dunno though, not as obvious as with dogs.

The leopard gets more fiber I would think since she eats the mazuri most times I give it to them, I've never seen the sully eat any mazuri.

I have a temp gun....I don't quite understand however, how the hell one can raise the "low" temperature and not the high one. Nothing is thermally isolated from eachother in an enclosure. A rising tide lifts all boats.

 

[Neal]

I apologize if I missed this one (I do that a lot), but how often are you feeding them? I think feeding them as much as they can eat as often as they want to eat, assuming the diet is "good" (it sounds like you're OK there), is one of the critical elements here to getting them better in my opinion. Your leopard especially looks to be in rough shape, but if he's still eating perhaps there is some hope.

The other critical component, again in my opinion, is the temperature. I would recommend keeping them with a low close to 90 degrees and a high no more than 100 around the clock, with raised humidity. If you can't do that in the current set up, you may need to set up a sort of temporary ICU. If you happen to have an egg incubator, these work well with supervised visits outside and frequent soakings. Keeping them warmer will encourage them to eat more.

 

[Kasia]

Near Las Cruces NM.

https://newscenter.nmsu.edu/Article...-hay-sparks-interest-for-future-nmsu-research
http://www.rgttc.info/
I don't know if they will be helpful but they might offer help for free or less then a private vet

 

[kywilli2063]

Morla's poo....as you can see very undigested.

 

[Sara G.]

Is there any moss in the enclosure? Like sphagnum moss or something?