Help, Leopard in Dire Straights

[kywilli2063]

Hey, I'm hoping I can get some help here.

I have a leopard and (until 2 days ago) 2 sulcatas (now one, only healthy one escaped :'( ) and they're not doing well. I've done everything by the book, and the escapee was very healthy, but these other two, not so much.

They have water, they have good high and low temps, I keep the humidity as high as possible, I let them outside on my days off (hence the escape) and she and the other sulcata aren't getting better.

Don't tell me to go to a vet because I already wasted 70 bucks on going to one that claimed she treats tortoises, and she did nothing helpful. Gave me some eye drops -_-. So what I would like is some aid from some of you that know what you're doing, have administered medicine before. I'm thinking I'd like to try giving the leopard a calcium shot and see if she gets any better. Her shell is too soft and I feel like the plastron is starting to darken. Quite frankly I'm kind of sick of getting babies and having them die, I had a sulcata last year who I had for a year (his care was not on point unfortunately) and he ended up dying, then a new sulcata died less than a month after I got him. I like tortoises....but this sucks.

 

[kywilli2063]

Oh and if by chance someone knows a good way to find an escaped tort......I looked as much as I could.

 

[kywilli2063]

They both have good appetite, love radicchio.....but the leopards poops are weird. Compared to the sulcata they're very loose, and seem pretty undigested (even in comparison), the vet pretended this wasn't an issue, but I'm not so sure.

 

[dmmj]

the very first question I have to ask in order to get it out of the way. Are these tortoises house together or separately?

 

[JoesMum]

Following on from that question, please post photos of your enclosure and lighting.

And some more questions to help us diagnose the problem.

I'm guessing they're outdoors if one escaped? So maybe lighting is not relevant. If there is lighting we especially need to see the UVB and know how old it is.

What are the 4 important temperatures? Directly under the basking lamp, warm side,cool side and overnight minimum.

What are you feeding your torts and how often do you soak them?

 

[SarahChelonoidis]

We need more details.

You say you're doing everything by the book, but there are a lot of different 'books', so to speak. Tell us about their diet, temperatures, soaking routine, etc. Photos help.

Where and when did you get these tortoises? Have you been buying them all from them same breeder?

Edit: just read your previous post. Did you get your temperature situation under control? How long were temperatures ranging between 75-120F? What relative humidity went with those temperatures?

 

[kywilli2063]

They are housed together, we'll have a highlander event if that's an issue....I seem to see many together at every zoo I've ever been to.

78-100. And the low is probably 5 degrees lower than the rest of the tank. At night just their basking goes off and 2 heat panels and a ceramic keep everything warm. Basking is a mercury vapor....beginning of the year age.

They get any and all greens, they like radicchio a lot, hate chard apparently. I give mazuri but the leopard is the only one i've ever seen touch it. Soaking every day, maybe missing 1 out of 7.

I live in new mexico, so the best I can do with humidity is dump a bucket of water in there and let the substrate soak it up and do that when it dries out, about once a week.

The Leopard came from the same breeder that I bought the sulcata from that died in less than a month, the other one and the escapee came from a different guy. Both ads on kingsnake.

 

[JoesMum]

You mentioned eye drops. What are you using for UVB? Compact coil type bulbs cause eye problems in torts. Tube or MVB are the safe ways to go.

Please read this on pairs
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/pairs.34837/

Groups of 3 or more in a very large enclosure may work out, but there's always a dominant animal and some are worse than others. With pairs this translates into bully and victim

 

[kywilli2063]

The Mercury vapor basking bulb also puts off UVB...

They're hatchlings basically and they have a very large area for their size.

 

[kywilli2063]

Oh, got them at the beginning of the year.

 

[Markw84]

You're really going to have to help us if we are to give you any help that will be on point...

Please show us pictures of your tortoises and their enclosure, including how you cover the enclosure, the lighting and heat placement, how you control temperatures and lighting, what you do at night, and what their diet is and any supplements it you use them.

Please be patient with us as answers such as "on point", "basically hatchlings", "very large", "as high as possible" = tell us absolutely nothing. The more specific you can be, the more help we can give! And, the old "picture is worth a thousand words" is really the way of life here.

 

[Yvonne G]

They are housed together, we'll have a highlander event if that's an issue....I seem to see many together at every zoo I've ever been to.

Please don't go by what you see in the zoo. Zoos have vets on the payroll and they can afford to make sure that all their animals are healthy and not passing germs between the species.

78-100. And the low is probably 5 degrees lower than the rest of the tank. At night just their basking goes off and 2 heat panels and a ceramic keep everything warm. Basking is a mercury vapor....beginning of the year age.

How long have you been using the mercury vapor bulb? That's what it takes to make the calcium work - a GOOD UVB light. And most of them lose their efficiency after about 6 months and have to be replaced.

In order to make a baby's shell harder, you need to feed calcium-rich food, dust with calcium about 3 times a week and provide UVB either from the sun or from a GOOD light.

I wouldn't inject calcium on a small baby.

 

[kywilli2063]

This is not an environment issue.....the escapee was in perfect health. The bulb is no older than 3 months at most.

They get one of three calcium/vitamin supps I've amassed 3-4 times a week.

 

[kywilli2063]

2 heat panels and the ceramic are on a thermostat with the probe at approximately the coolest spot in the enclosure

 

[Yvonne G]

Well, I don't know what else to tell you, other than to separate them and raise the temperature for the leopard to 80-85F all over the whole tank and don't allow a nighttime drop. Soak him daily in warm water for at least 30 minutes in a small bowl he can't climb out of. You can also add a bit of Purina Layena (moistened to soften) to the greens. It contains a bit of D3 just in case your light isn't putting out the rays it should.

If this baby is suffering from "failure to thrive" there's probably not much you can do for it. I hope with the extra heat and d3 he can snap out of it and start growing/hardening for you. Good luck.

 

[SarahChelonoidis]

That's a lot of heating elements for a closed space. You're sure the hottest spot isn't more than 100F?

Too cold is bad, but desiccating heat is also not going to help baby's already struggling to survive. Beyond temperature issues and dehydration, there doesn't sound like there is much in your control here.

Since one escaped, what is their outside space like? Is there shade? How much time do they spend outside?

 

[Alexio]

Okay I see now , pictures are truly worth a thousand words. You have them in a vision cage I'm thinking . I love vision cages I have one for my Kenyan sand boa. They do retain heat and humidity nicely . my question is do you have a hole cut out for the light? Or is your light sitting on top of the cage? Vision cages usually have a meshy type of cover over the top portion where you insert the lights. These types of tops are notorious for cutting down on the amount of uvb rays from bulbs. Like I said not sure if you have a hole cut or if your cage is different than mine but that could be a large part of the problem in uvb deficiency.

 

[kywilli2063]

That's a lot of heating elements for a closed space. You're sure the hottest spot isn't more than 100F?

Too cold is bad, but desiccating heat is also not going to help baby's already struggling to survive. Beyond temperature issues and dehydration, there doesn't sound like there is much in your control here.

Since one escaped, what is their outside space like? Is there shade? How much time do they spend outside?

Yes, the heat panels are....rather pathetic quite honestly, they have a tough time keeping ground temps even at the set low.

I always drag their wood square (approx 6 x 6) to an area with both.....but now I don't think that's safe for obvious reasons. Before they'd spend at least 4 or 5 hours outside on days off. That's zero for right now.

 

[kywilli2063]

Okay I see now , pictures are truly worth a thousand words. You have them in a vision cage I'm thinking . I love vision cages I have one for my Kenyan sand boa. They do retain heat and humidity nicely . my question is do you have a hole cut out for the light? Or is your light sitting on top of the cage? Vision cages usually have a meshy type of cover over the top portion where you insert the lights. These types of tops are notorious for cutting down on the amount of uvb rays from bulbs. Like I said not sure if you have a hole cut or if your cage is different than mine but that could be a large part of the problem in uvb deficiency.

Now THAT....is helpful. It has the mesh stuff. My brother used these for his retics and I never really questioned....might be why they ended up dying in the end (one was 22 ft when she died).

How do you keep a boa from escaping one of those if you cut out? I realize the light will cover it....but snakes are crafty

 

[jaizei]

What brand is your MVB?