Help, Leopard in Dire Straights

[SarahChelonoidis]

If they were getting time outside every week, it isn't lack of UVB.

I think dehydration from the heat and lack of humidity is your most likely culprit. 4-5 hours outside in New Mexico heat is not recommend for babies.

 

[kywilli2063]

What brand is your MVB?

Reptispa

 

[Tom]

Given your routine and temps, I don't think you are the problem. You said low was 78, but then you said the coolest spot might be 5 degrees lower than that. 73 is too cool with these species and humidity. 78 as an over night low should be fine with a 100 degree basking area the next day.

Given the symptoms of a soft plastron, darkening plastron and death, I suspect the fault lies with the breeder. Is the breeder starting these tortoises with the normal "by-the-book" dry routine? If yes, that is the most likely cause of your problems.

Take a look at these:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/

Then these:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/

 

[Alexio]

How do you keep a boa from escaping one of those if you cut out? I realize the light will cover it....but snakes are crafty

Yeah that makes sense vision cages are really meant for snakes. I don't use lights as "most" snakes don't actueally need uvb . and lights of any kind tend to bother "most" snakes who are largely nocturnal and would prefer belly heat to overhead ambient heat for the most part so I use heat mats and under the tank heater for my boa and ball python. I also use showcase locks on the glass doors to prevent them for being opened intentionally or accidentally.

 

[kywilli2063]

Given your routine and temps, I don't think you are the problem. You said low was 78, but then you said the coolest spot might be 5 degrees lower than that. /

I meant that the set low of 78 is the 5 degree lower, the temp probe for the thermostat is set in a spot that is undoubtedly the coolest spot by a significant gradient.

 

[kywilli2063]

Given the symptoms of a soft plastron, darkening plastron and death, I suspect the fault lies with the breeder. Is the breeder starting these tortoises with the normal "by-the-book" dry routine? If yes, that is the most likely cause of your problems.

/

The guy I got the sulcatas from was very adamant that he soaked them and whatnot. He still has ads up http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=1132819. And the sulcata isn't nearly as bad as the leopard. I was hoping someone has experience giving them calcium injections or similar to bring them around, I have no issue with giving shots.

 

[Tom]

The guy I got the sulcatas from was very adamant that he soaked them and whatnot. He still has ads up http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=1132819. And the sulcata isn't nearly as bad as the leopard. I was hoping someone has experience giving them calcium injections or similar to bring them around, I have no issue with giving shots.

I clicked and saw the add. So he soaks daily. That is good. How is he housing the babies? Indoors or out? Humid or dry? Damp substrate or rabbit pellets?

 

[dmmj]

I liked " plus shipping?" As if he was unsure

 

[Alexio]

I don't have any kind of injecting knowledge but I did check out that add. He said he's feeding them mazuri and adding a calcium supplement 3-4 times a week. That equates to basically every other day getting a calcium and he didn't specify as to the mazuri . Torts do need calcium and protein but fiber is really the important thing. In humans if you take too much of a vitamin or a hormone it can actually cause your body to stop producing that protein or chemical. I'm not 100% if it works the same was with animals but I assume it could be very similar. I rarely give my lil guys supplements maybe once a week a sprinkle of calcium . For older torts especially gravid females excess calcium becomes important to increase the strength of the eggs so they don't crack\ cave in. Like I said I'm not 100% on the science but it could be a case of over supplementing. (Mazuri has calcium as well as some foods your likely weeding them already.

 

[kywilli2063]

I'm less worried about the sulcata that came from him....really really want him/her to live though since the one that didn't escape is supposed to be het for ivory. She's not nearly as spunky as the escapee....but she does move around without prodding on occasion and her shell is nowhere near the softness of leopard.
Like I said the leopard is from the same guy that I had a sulcata die from after like 2 weeks. I did everything I could for him. He seemed fine when I got him and plummeted in days. I just feel like the leopard was pretty spunky when I got her and she's gone downhill and I feel like somehow it's my fault even though I'm doing everything as right as I can figure out to :/

 

[dmmj]

I hate to ask but R U housing the sulcata and leopard together?

 

[kywilli2063]

Yes, I found nowhere where anyone said this is a significant problem at this size. Did quite a lot of research and of course people claiming it's a bad thing but offering no rationale.

 

[Sara G.]

I'm surprised you didn't see any rationale for it.
Mixing species is frowned upon for multiple reasons--size difference being one but as hatchlings size doesn't come into issue just yet.
However, it's very easy for germs to pass from species to species. Once species that is immune to a certain germ could pass it along to another species that isn't and boom, sick tort.

Plus the care is usually very different with different species. I think with leopards and sullys its roughly the same but still, I personally wouldn't keep them together.
Especially now that you have only a pair instead of a trio.

Any luck trying to find the other one?

 

[Sara G.]

Did you quarantine your leopard from your two sullys when you got him/her?

 

[Kasia]

Yes, I found nowhere where anyone said this is a significant problem at this size. Did quite a lot of research and of course people claiming it's a bad thing but offering no rationale.

Did You do a fecal on both of them? You wrote that the leo's stool is loose. Maybe worms are the reason Your little ones are not thriving?? Some parasites are not visible with a naked eye (e.g protozoa) and can cause all the symptoms You mention (eye problems as well - drops given by Your vet) even with a greatest care they will deteriorate if not treated properly. Housing them together makes both prone for getting same stuff.

 

[JoesMum]

I suggest you read this about Pairs
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/pairs.34837/

 

[kywilli2063]

Did You do a fecal on both of them? You wrote that the leo's stool is loose. Maybe worms are the reason Your little ones are not thriving?? Some parasites are not visible with a naked eye (e.g protozoa) and can cause all the symptoms You mention (eye problems as well - drops given by Your vet) even with a greatest care they will deteriorate if not treated properly. Housing them together makes both prone for getting same stuff.

Vet claimed she'd need more poo than I've ever seen come out of the leopard to run a full workup. The leopards poo doesn't stay together at all and looks hardly digested at all, comes apart immediately in water, she always goes when soaked. The vet did look at what she was able to swap off her under the microscope but said that wouldn't catch everything.
Since I had the one that was doing so well I thought if he started doing not as well then it would be worms, and will have spread between them....but he was fine when he escaped.

 

[kywilli2063]

Did you quarantine your leopard from your two sullys when you got him/her?

I had the leo first. I feel like I would have quarantined them, but am honestly having a hard time remembering.
The leo hasn't gained any weight since I started weighing her in like February, for that matter neither had the other two. She's only about 25g....with the sullys at 38ish and 50ish (escapee).

 

[kywilli2063]

Any luck trying to find the other one?

No I look every time I'm outside. I was wondering if anyone has ever like.....baited one or something....there's almost nothing for him to eat outside I don't think, and if he went tromping across the pecan orchard he's prolly gonna drown when they water. I guess there's also a finite possibility that a bird grabbed him....but I don't have any raptors flying around right here.....just a really fat robin and assorted smaller birds

 

[JoesMum]

Something irresistible from the 'feed very occasionally' list like strawberries put in the obvious basking spots in your garden may act as bait