Galapagos

Status
Not open for further replies.

egyptiandan

New Member
10 Year Member!
5 Year Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2007
Messages
5,794
Location (City and/or State)
USA
Yes I know what F1's are. :D Was just wondering why you called them hybrids, when no one else was. Just interested in why you are considering them hybrids if they come out of Tanzinia and hybrids with what? What exactly would I be asking CITES?

Danny
 

Yvonne G

Old Timer
TFO Admin
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
86,061
Location (City and/or State)
Clovis, CA
Gordon said:
I saw some Aldabras in HK as well and they were at least 19,000 HK$. I should guess that Galapagos should be a lot more than that.
Hi Gordon:

Won't you take a moment to start a new thread in the "introductions" section and tell us a bit about yourself?
 

River14

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2011
Messages
217
Im not sure you do? F1 are first generation hybrids correct? There is no other interpretation for F1 that I know off? Not in any acceptable genetic definition of Fi. If you do know otherwise take it up with Cites, i have no clue what the parentage is meant to be myself.

So what am i meant to be reading into Cites records? Point the way if you have another definition, please do. It may enlighten us as to Cites records and specifically their quotas for these particular reptiles.

I suspect it refers to F1 captive bred animals. And you?
 

egyptiandan

New Member
10 Year Member!
5 Year Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2007
Messages
5,794
Location (City and/or State)
USA
Not sure why I have to explain this, but :p CITES only issues export paperwork for countries of origin for animals. If you look at Aldabra tortoises, they consider Tanzinia as an introduced country of origin, so the country needs paperwork and a quota to export. The US is not a country of origin for Aldabras, so CITES quota paperwork is not needed. We can export as many Aldabras as we want and there will be no record of it. There is still export paperwork, just nothing that CITES gets as they are just CITES II animals.

Yes I do know what F1 means and it doesn't mean they are hybrids. :p F1 means they are first generation captive born animals from wild caught parents. F2 would be second generation captive born animals from F1 parents.

Danny
 

River14

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2011
Messages
217
River14 said:
Im not sure you do? F1 are first generation hybrids correct? There is no other interpretation for F1 that I know off? Not in any acceptable genetic definition of Fi. If you do know otherwise take it up with Cites, i have no clue what the parentage is meant to be myself.

So what am i meant to be reading into Cites records? Point the way if you have another definition, please do. It may enlighten us as to Cites records and specifically their quotas for these particular reptiles.

I suspect it refers to F1 captive bred animals. And you?
[hr]
So whats your point here?
 

Yvonne G

Old Timer
TFO Admin
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
86,061
Location (City and/or State)
Clovis, CA
Ok, I'm just your average, normal hobbyist, and I don't know from F1, etc. My understanding was that "F1" referred to the first offspring of the original wild-caught tortoise pair. Is this wrong? And what does that have to do with intergrades or hybrids?
 

egyptiandan

New Member
10 Year Member!
5 Year Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2007
Messages
5,794
Location (City and/or State)
USA
If you don't know what your point is :p than I'm sure not going to know what your point is. :D

You are exactly right Yvonne :)

Danny
 

Yvonne G

Old Timer
TFO Admin
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
86,061
Location (City and/or State)
Clovis, CA
im461n3 said:
Aldabra giant tortoise? a few could be found on the china/hk black market each year.
Hi im461n3:

I know you've been a Forum member for quite a while, but we've neglected to find out anything about you. May we know your name and where you are?[hr]
This thread has gone a little off topic, but it has been very interesting to me and I'm learning quite a bit from it. River14: Would you mind if we re-name the thread? Something more fitting to how it has evolved rather than just "Galapagos."

And, while we're on the subject of "hybrid" I thought that the off spring from mating between sub-species was referred to as "intergrade." Wouldn't a "hybrid" be between different species?
 

EricIvins

Active Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
1,183
River14 said:
F1's are F1's what can I say, they have been realised in Tanzania with what and how I have no clue?

Any doubt ask Cites.

I ask you however where are these legal rapid turn over exports from the Seychelles that America apparently distributes across the globe in the face of Cites regulations and quotas, and more to the point to America itself? Care to show where in cites 2011 2010 etc etc this has ever been a reality? A legal reality?

You make the point all I ask is for you to substantiate it with proof and the relative documentation from the open and free for all to see Cites records?
It's a reality.......

A LEGAL reality ( as in NOT ILLEGAL )........

You'll find that most Websites that deal with Import/Export numbers are very outdated, so the Interwebs shouldn't be your only source for information........

How about you call whatever governing Authority that deals with live animal Imports and talk with them instead of assuming?

The big picture is a whole lot different when you're only looking at a small portion of it.........
 

River14

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2011
Messages
217
I think you are right Emysemys, I do know it usually refers to the first generation.
 

River14

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2011
Messages
217
-EJ said:
you're cute. Thanks for the giggle.
My pleasure :D

Tanzania's Changuu Island tortoises were originaly a gift from the British Governor of the other British colony Seychelles in 1919 ?

The figures on Cites date back a way and also right up to 2011. They are complete, as you seemed to have missed them I will try and post an extract.

It just shows how vulnerable these populations are despite what appears to be relatively large numbers.
1955 there were 200 animals on Changuu from the original four sent in 1919
1988 100
1990 50
1996 7!!!!!

The long and short of the matter is I cannot find out enough about these aldbras to able me to even consider a purchase at any price, even if they do come from America. Whew! How fully grown wild caught adults end up in private hands is also a big mystery.
 

River14

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2011
Messages
217
egyptiandan said:
Not sure why I have to explain this, but :p CITES only issues export paperwork for countries of origin for animals. If you look at Aldabra tortoises, they consider Tanzinia as an introduced country of origin, so the country needs paperwork and a quota to export. The US is not a country of origin for Aldabras, so CITES quota paperwork is not needed. We can export as many Aldabras as we want and there will be no record of it. There is still export paperwork, just nothing that CITES gets as they are just CITES II animals.
I missed this. I reckon this system is not very good at all. It means you can simply take 30 tortoises from Aldabra to South Africa for example then sell them to anyone with no Cites involvment at all. Completely ignoring quotas and regulation?

I find this loop hole rather too obvious.
 

-EJ

New Member
10 Year Member!
5 Year Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
983
Location (City and/or State)
Georgia
No wild caught Aldabras end up in anyones hands. They from the Aldabra atoll. It is near impossible to get to and highly guarded.

Adults have been passed around for generations... they are not wild caught but are products of relic captive populations.



River14 said:
-EJ said:
you're cute. Thanks for the giggle.
My pleasure :D

Tanzania's Changuu Island tortoises were originaly a gift from the British Governor of the other British colony Seychelles in 1919 ?

The figures on Cites date back a way and also right up to 2011. They are complete, as you seemed to have missed them I will try and post an extract.

It just shows how vulnerable these populations are despite what appears to be relatively large numbers.
1955 there were 200 animals on Changuu from the original four sent in 1919
1988 100
1990 50
1996 7!!!!!

The long and short of the matter is I cannot find out enough about these aldbras to able me to even consider a purchase at any price, even if they do come from America. Whew! How fully grown wild caught adults end up in private hands is also a big mystery.
[hr]
No... Aldabra is a World Heritage Site... all flora and fauna is highly protected.

Those that are not from Aldabra are free to move about at will... depending on local law.

River14 said:
egyptiandan said:
Not sure why I have to explain this, but :p CITES only issues export paperwork for countries of origin for animals. If you look at Aldabra tortoises, they consider Tanzinia as an introduced country of origin, so the country needs paperwork and a quota to export. The US is not a country of origin for Aldabras, so CITES quota paperwork is not needed. We can export as many Aldabras as we want and there will be no record of it. There is still export paperwork, just nothing that CITES gets as they are just CITES II animals.
I missed this. I reckon this system is not very good at all. It means you can simply take 30 tortoises from Aldabra to South Africa for example then sell them to anyone with no Cites involvment at all. Completely ignoring quotas and regulation?

I find this loop hole rather too obvious.
 

fashionpriest

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2009
Messages
33
the thing about mongkok pet stores.... for every 6 tortoises they import from america 60 of them come from china or smuggled in. cause when i wanted to buy a tortoise they do not give u the paper works they just give u a number. very shady. they do not even give the right care sheets.... i.e. they ask u to feed just lettuce for cherry heads. and for aldabra's, they tell u these breeds would not grow big if u keep them indoors and in a vivarium. a load of crap. their aim of care sheets is to kill the tortoise within a year or so .... therefore u could go get another one. i know people who keep on buying sulcatas every 4-5 months because the one before died. even when u try to educate the public they seem to fall for the pet shops bull **** because they are selling u the tortoise. they are very few houses in hong kong big enough for sulcatas let alone aldabras.... very sad.
 

-EJ

New Member
10 Year Member!
5 Year Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
983
Location (City and/or State)
Georgia
I know... the pet keeper off the street... has the low down... especially the tortoise freak.

fashionpriest said:
the thing about mongkok pet stores.... for every 6 tortoises they import from america 60 of them come from china or smuggled in. cause when i wanted to buy a tortoise they do not give u the paper works they just give u a number. very shady. they do not even give the right care sheets.... i.e. they ask u to feed just lettuce for cherry heads. and for aldabra's, they tell u these breeds would not grow big if u keep them indoors and in a vivarium. a load of crap. their aim of care sheets is to kill the tortoise within a year or so .... therefore u could go get another one. i know people who keep on buying sulcatas every 4-5 months because the one before died. even when u try to educate the public they seem to fall for the pet shops bull stuff because they are selling u the tortoise. they are very few houses in hong kong big enough for sulcatas let alone aldabras.... very sad.
 

River14

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2011
Messages
217
fashionpriest said:
the thing about mongkok pet stores.... for every 6 tortoises they import from america 60 of them come from china or smuggled in. cause when i wanted to buy a tortoise they do not give u the paper works they just give u a number. very shady.
I dont think this is all together accurate. In fact its not. China doesn't have enough tortoises left in the wild to cater for its own huge domestic demand. Tons are brought into China smuggled, legal illegal who knows, they never report these things. Most 99.9% are for eating. You have to just go there to see it for yourself. Plus China imports literally tons of turtle from United states industrial turtle farms, with standing orders in weights of tons.

Mong Kok also has many many turtles from the US and Asia, hatchlings for the pet trade, the American ones have become disposable pets in the main due to the flood of available hatchlings, almost like guppies. Most die a few weeks later just from disease and stress.

Tortoises are something entirely different we dont have any Chinese species, only African, Mediterranean and very seldom Asiatics like Stars.

The appearance of the Albara tortoise is very recent.

Yes you dont get paperwork this doesn't prove they come from China?

Honk Kong it may surprise most people here at least is very strict on monitoring the situation. We have many many apprehended smugglers, these are always turtles and other reptiles for the catering industry. Never tortoises and they try and come in by sea simply because of the big numbers involved. The airport aprehends many too these are mostly reptiles for the pet trade including tortoises snakes etc These incidenses are always fully reported in the media.

I must assume that the tortoises turtles and reptiles for sale on Tung Choi street and more recently around Fa Yuen have import licenses these are also montored closely, anything being openly sold can only be done legally for fear of being closed down. This happens often too.

The AFD is very efficient here. Some do get in of course like everywhere in the world so if you are ever offered an animal that suddenly materialises from behind black curtains report them immediately if you recognise the species as being illegal.:cool:

[hr]
-EJ said:
No wild caught Aldabras end up in anyones hands. They from the Aldabra atoll. It is near impossible to get to and highly guarded.

Adults have been passed around for generations... they are not wild caught but are products of relic captive populations.

No... Aldabra is a World Heritage Site... all flora and fauna is highly protected.

Those that are not from Aldabra are free to move about at will... depending on local law.
Well coming from Africa myself all this means is zilch :( Even In most heavily and armed protected areas wild life poaching is still rife. South Africa for example lost 333 endangered Rhino in 2010 alone. All it takes is a lucrative sideline for one or a few rangers.

World heritage sites too are not safe just because of the designation. Far from it. Take coltan (columbite-tantalite) mining to produce the rare metal tantalum in the Congo Heritage site the Okapi Wildlife Reserve? Just for one amongst many exmples. No one to protect it what ever designtion it has been given.

The assumption can easily be made that tortoises can and do go missing off the atoll.

A 1997 survey discovered that 29 OOO adults were unacounted for. Goates pigs rats and over exploitation by humans all play a part but that was 29 000. So smuggling is certainly to be a problem.

So how does one tell if a hatchling tortoise is from there or not? You cant. Unless all trade in the species is stopped immediatley until a system of computer chipping is put in place.

That any country may freely trade in the species simply due to them not being country of origin is just unbelievble ill concieved.

Not sure why I have to explain this, but CITES only issues export paperwork for countries of origin for animals.
Could it be because you care?:rolleyes:
 

River14

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2011
Messages
217
If I were to accept that America was the distributor of Albabras direct from the Seychelles as Eric Ivins claims I would like to know why as this contravenes Cites quotas? And isn't the "Seychelles the land of origin"

Most Aldabras in the US are straight from the Seychelles........They come here, then are Re-Exported.......Export fees are not cheap, and the wait for CITES paperwork is months ( usually 6+ ) if the paperwork is even approved for CBB hatchlings.....

Turn around time to Re-Export Seychelles animals with paperwork is a week or two........The animals come from the same source, whether direct or indirectly........
Eric Ivins

As far as I can work out this is completely illegal trading????

Some of the published problems associated with protecting the atoll re EJ

Point 2 and 11 are particularly relevant I would say.

= inappropriate choices of personnel, often resulting from a lack of suitable candidates
∗
∗ •
= Poaching of both terrestrial and marine species is a continuing threat to Aldabra’s ecosystems.
•
= Tourism a dominant activity on Aldabra could be catastrophic for its natural life.
•
= A large scale fire would impact on all terrestrial life on Aldabra.
•
= An oil spill in the area would be a disaster for Aldabra’s marine ecosystems, and would have
impacts throughout the atoll because of the porosity of the limestone under the land surface.
•
= inadequate training.
∗
= inter-personal conflicts.
∗
= lack of continuity of staff, resulting from broken contracts and/or insufficient handing-
over time.
•
= Many of the staff are not sufficiently conservation-oriented and do not have the right attitude
towards Aldabra as a Special Nature Reserve and a World Heritage Site.
•
= Scientific monitoring is not always carried out as it should be, sometimes as a result of a
management problem on Aldabra, sometimes because there are insufficient personnel.
•
Insufficient ability to police poaching and unauthorised landings on the atoll.
 

River14

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2011
Messages
217
And still the Aldabras keep coming almost every pet store has juveniles up to 30cm long.

Hey any exporters listening, Hong Kong except for a tiny minority lets say 0,0000000000000000001% have gardens the rest live in apartments where an Alabra is just not going to be able to live. Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees find a system to track and know where your tortoises are going.

Contact the TT for ideas, but please dont just sell them to whomever comes along. You must be able to trace every single one of your tortoises immediately no problem. Thats the aim. Use chips for identification whatever. if you cannot keep tabs on your animals then stop selling them end of story.

I know these tortoises in the wild are Cites appendix11 and in reviewe simply because numerous though they may be ,large isolated populations are often the most vulnerable, decimated in matter of a few years as history has taught us in Tansania and elsewhere. We dont want to be left with minimal genetics and no where to go. SO STOP CREATING DEMAND AND A MARKET. JUST STOP before its too late.

These dont make the best pets as they grow too large for most people even in a suburbian context. And they most certainly are not ponies for the kids to ride or status symbols. Want something get a hybrid Corvette or maybe better a Lotus leave the living alone to live in peace ???
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top