Galapagos

[River14]

EJ what do I know, only what they tell me. I suspect they do though. The limited genetics point to it. They come from Florida apparently?

What certainly startles me is how many tons literally of turtles from America are shipped here every month. I suppose paper work is cheap when purchasing in bulk like this, throw in a few Adbras and no matter what the paper work costs for these the turtles are off setting the price. You are still making healthy profits. I also think the leopards come from the USA too. Though I didnt ask.

Most of the turtles are then sold here again to China and sent on straight away. I will look up some sites on this matter its truly eye popping.

Another thing to remember is if a "product" (sadly) isnt sold the price keeps coming down who knows how long they have been trying to move the poor things?

 

[wrmitchell22]

EJ what do I know, only what they tell me. I suspect they do though. The limited genetics point to it. They come from Florida apparently?

What certainly startles me is how many tons literally of turtles from America are shipped here every month. I suppose paper work is cheap when purchasing in bulk like this, throw in a few Adbras and no matter what the paper work costs for these the turtles are off setting the price. You are still making healthy profits. I also think the leopards come from the USA too. Though I didnt ask.

Most of the turtles are then sold here again to China and sent on straight away. I will look up some sites on this matter its truly eye popping.

Another thing to remember is if a "product" (sadly) isnt sold the price keeps coming down who knows how long they have been trying to move the poor things?

This is so strange to us in the U.S., or maybe just to me. I suppose shipping in bulk would definatley make the paperwork more reasonable and who is to say how they are being shipped anyway. Again thanks for the info, you are closing the gap between countries and cultures

 

[River14]

[/quote]

This is so strange to us in the U.S., or maybe just to me. I suppose shipping in bulk would definitely make the paperwork more reasonable and who is to say how they are being shipped anyway. Again thanks for the info, you are closing the gap between countries and cultures

[/quote]

Thanks. Im not sure about the culture gap Im still trying to fill that in for myself

Maybe for in the turtle thread, but I didn't know so many American turtles species were in trouble
Even giant adult snappers are being exported. The shop with adabras has an enormous one also from America they say. I did read about this on another conservation site. Anyway different thread

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

EJ what do I know, only what they tell me. I suspect they do though. The limited genetics point to it. They come from Florida apparently?

What certainly startles me is how many tons literally of turtles from America are shipped here every month. I suppose paper work is cheap when purchasing in bulk like this, throw in a few Adbras and no matter what the paper work costs for these the turtles are off setting the price. You are still making healthy profits. I also think the leopards come from the USA too. Though I didnt ask.

Most of the turtles are then sold here again to China and sent on straight away. I will look up some sites on this matter its truly eye popping.

Another thing to remember is if a "product" (sadly) isnt sold the price keeps coming down who knows how long they have been trying to move the poor things?

Very possible those were hatched at our breeding program in Florida. Many were purchased by several sources and could have ended up out of the states.

 

[River14]

They are so cute. Colour of little black grapes.

Yes of course this is entirely possible and I suppose entirely unavoidable unless each one is chipped and then scanned at point of departure. Ony then would you know. I dont think there is such a progrme in the states. But do know they are doing it to some tortoise breeds in the wild.

I think the chappie at the shop is telling the truth. Its just incredible how many species they keep. I know they eat them in China as I've seen piles of them at markets there so Im always very interested how and why as so many are on the brink.

Thanks

 

[-EJ]

So they can sell them at $1200 each... what are you giving them away for?

EJ what do I know, only what they tell me. I suspect they do though. The limited genetics point to it. They come from Florida apparently?

What certainly startles me is how many tons literally of turtles from America are shipped here every month. I suppose paper work is cheap when purchasing in bulk like this, throw in a few Adbras and no matter what the paper work costs for these the turtles are off setting the price. You are still making healthy profits. I also think the leopards come from the USA too. Though I didnt ask.

Most of the turtles are then sold here again to China and sent on straight away. I will look up some sites on this matter its truly eye popping.

Another thing to remember is if a "product" (sadly) isnt sold the price keeps coming down who knows how long they have been trying to move the poor things?

Very possible those were hatched at our breeding program in Florida. Many were purchased by several sources and could have ended up out of the states.

 

[EricIvins]

Limited genetics? Seriously?

Most Aldabras in the US are straight from the Seychelles........They come here, then are Re-Exported.......Export fees are not cheap, and the wait for CITES paperwork is months ( usually 6+ ) if the paperwork is even approved for CBB hatchlings.....

Turn around time to Re-Export Seychelles animals with paperwork is a week or two........The animals come from the same source, whether direct or indirectly........

 

[River14]

This getting stranger and stranger, America is acting as distributor for tortoises direct from the Seychelles??? Why? Does this mean so are Madagascar's critically endangered radiated tortoises doing the same thing. I believe they have naturalised well on the Seychelles.

Dont shoot the messenger but that chap in the pet shop showed me the diffenrecnc between the two in books as how he knew they came from American bred ones? One was oblong and the other round. I wonder if these animals are getting a fair deal and this should outlawed.

From one countries breeding facility (a long way away) to the next country and distributor then to another country and distributor then to a pet shop then to a customer with no clue as to how to look after it?????
If this is true it isn't good? Surely.

I will look up these this and see what the rules are.

 

[-EJ]

I think it's equally split as to where they come from in the States. There is more than one breeder in the states.

A good number of animals came and are coming from Mauritius.

Limited genetics? Seriously?

Most Aldabras in the US are straight from the Seychelles........They come here, then are Re-Exported.......Export fees are not cheap, and the wait for CITES paperwork is months ( usually 6+ ) if the paperwork is even approved for CBB hatchlings.....

Turn around time to Re-Export Seychelles animals with paperwork is a week or two........The animals come from the same source, whether direct or indirectly........

---

I have to say if there is one tortoise that is the easiest and most forgiving... it has to be the Aldabra... sulcata next.

Like many tortoises... I don't think the Aldabra is one you can look at and say 'yup... that's where it came from'... with one exception... the animals with the split scutes most likely came from Mauritius. I've seen... have... elongated Aldabs from Mauritius.

This getting stranger and stranger, America is acting as distributor for tortoises direct from the Seychelles??? Why? Does this mean so are Madagascar's critically endangered radiated tortoises doing the same thing. I believe they have naturalised well on the Seychelles.

Dont shoot the messenger but that chap in the pet shop showed me the diffenrecnc between the two in books as how he knew they came from American bred ones? One was oblong and the other round. I wonder if these animals are getting a fair deal and this should outlawed.

From one countries breeding facility (a long way away) to the next country and distributor then to another country and distributor then to a pet shop then to a customer with no clue as to how to look after it?????
If this is true it isn't good? Surely.

I will look up these this and see what the rules are.

 

[River14]

Well I know the only legal quota for moving aldabras from one country to the next from Cites for this year 2011 is 40 aldabras from the United Republic of Tanzania??? So obviously not from the wild either.

I hope no unscrupulous dealers are using nomenclature loop holes for Aldabrachelys gigantea or partaking in accepting false cites permits or playing on wild versus captive. I mean an entire years worth of wild tortoise eggs could be collected from the wild and hatched in captivity who is to know????. I know the later two issues are a big problem for many tortoise species.

Its incredible if you read the reptile quotas issued by cites there are hundreds and thousands and thousands of reptiles moving across the globe, I just cant believe and wonder where they are all going, it doesn't say of course, but I bet many many to China for the dinner table rest for pet trade.

Apparently you can tell a wild tortoise from a captive tortoise for example. I imagine most large 23-25 year old breeding aldabras are wild caught to supply breeding stock for commercial breeders in other countries???

The species is apparently under review due to habitat loss, trading, hunting poaching, introduced pests and pet trade. The numbers in the wild have dropped alarmingly in the last decade.

I read an add on the net from the Seychelles selling these tortoises, apparently they come with a cites permit??? Well they wont be any legal ones this year as I have read the quotas from cites for the Seychelles and its 0 .

I cant find any information about America being the distributor of these animals from the Seychelles at all, only evidence that American bred animals are sometimes and rarely exported. Though I dont see a quota for their export from America so Im assuming they cannot this year even sell home bred ones ut of America captive bred or not. Unless of course America is a none signatory to Cites which is obviously ridiculous, and so is the Seychelles? I dont know state to state or to customer regulations inside America for selling home grown but it doesn't look like much fresh genetics are coming into America legally at least from anywhere?

So the question still remains how did my reptile shop get em from America? A cites license would not have been issued without an American quota from Cites? Surely.

I've prolly missed out on a bunch as exact information its a bit fuzzy on the net. So I will go to cites site itself see if I can confirm the above Cites info from Cites extracts used in other articles, with direct quotes. Especily concerning cptive bred animals, might be a drmatic flaw in Cites

Is there a conservation thread as I think this might belong there and or the whole post belong in Aldabra torts?

 

[River14]

I find not since 2003 have any captive bred or wild Aldabrachelys gigantea legally left the Seychelles for any where, and that's eight years ago? When 100 captive bred juveniles in 2003 were allowed, where they went is not clear, Im supposing not at all did all go to America but rather a few zoos across the world, depending on genetics. These would still not be of breeding age today obviously. So Im wondering in legal terms how America is suddenly the legal hub of distribution across the world for Seychelles bred Aldabrachelys? Not since 2001 were 15 wild juvenile specimens exported not even these would be of breeding age now.

As far as genetics is concerned I would say there is definitely a specific gene pool especially in the private sector?

Take a look yourself.

Im still a bit in the clouds how these oblong "American bred" tortoises got to Hong Kong legally. Not to mention the radiated tortoises originally from Madagascar completely and completely illegal to trade anywhere except in the united states it seems? And why this is so I also have no clue. Creating a demand is the worst fastest possible route to extinction of a species in the wild as we all already know right?

http://www.cites.org/eng/resources/species.html[hr]
Ps the most exported tody are F1 hybrids from Tanzania?

 

[-EJ]

Aldabras are not CITES listed animals.

I believe there are provisions for tortoises in general. Each country might have their own quotas.

The fact that you have access to the reptile fauna that you do shows that the reptile market is a huge one the world over and I believe the majority is not for food.

Well I know the only legal quota for moving aldabras from one country to the next from Cites for this year 2011 is 40 aldabras from the United Republic of Tanzania??? So obviously not from the wild either.

I hope no unscrupulous dealers are using nomenclature loop holes for Aldabrachelys gigantea or partaking in accepting false cites permits or playing on wild versus captive. I mean an entire years worth of wild tortoise eggs could be collected from the wild and hatched in captivity who is to know????. I know the later two issues are a big problem for many tortoise species.

Its incredible if you read the reptile quotas issued by cites there are hundreds and thousands and thousands of reptiles moving across the globe, I just cant believe and wonder where they are all going, it doesn't say of course, but I bet many many to China for the dinner table rest for pet trade.

Apparently you can tell a wild tortoise from a captive tortoise for example. I imagine most large 23-25 year old breeding aldabras are wild caught to supply breeding stock for commercial breeders in other countries???

The species is apparently under review due to habitat loss, trading, hunting poaching, introduced pests and pet trade. The numbers in the wild have dropped alarmingly in the last decade.

I read an add on the net from the Seychelles selling these tortoises, apparently they come with a cites permit??? Well they wont be any legal ones this year as I have read the quotas from cites for the Seychelles and its 0 .

I cant find any information about America being the distributor of these animals from the Seychelles at all, only evidence that American bred animals are sometimes and rarely exported. Though I dont see a quota for their export from America so Im assuming they cannot this year even sell home bred ones ut of America captive bred or not. Unless of course America is a none signatory to Cites which is obviously ridiculous, and so is the Seychelles? I dont know state to state or to customer regulations inside America for selling home grown but it doesn't look like much fresh genetics are coming into America legally at least from anywhere?

So the question still remains how did my reptile shop get em from America? A cites license would not have been issued without an American quota from Cites? Surely.

I've prolly missed out on a bunch as exact information its a bit fuzzy on the net. So I will go to cites site itself see if I can confirm the above Cites info from Cites extracts used in other articles, with direct quotes. Especily concerning cptive bred animals, might be a drmatic flaw in Cites

Is there a conservation thread as I think this might belong there and or the whole post belong in Aldabra torts?

 

[River14]

Aldabras are certainly Cites II listed species did you not read the link I forwarded? Not only that but they are in review which means the status of wild Aldabras or Aldabrchelys gigantea Cites classified II are considered more than just vulnerable due to the plummeting rate of wild numbers. This means they are under urgent investigation.

I can hardly see America as being the hub of world wide distribution of Seychelles bred Aldabrachelys gigantea tortoises today in fact if they are this is contravening the international Cites agreement and all concerned would be delighted to hear more from you. Not any time now or in the near past has this been allowed legally.

I shall endeavour to research this and make sure it stops if it is the truth. However I find it highly unlikely as the Seychelles dont even have a quota for export for 2011 and the rest is known. The last captive legal juveniles exported as I said was 2003 and who knows where these went. Right?.

If you know any different to Cites I am keen to know.

By the way the Tanzania quota was for F1 hybrids only. Perhaps these are the mixed bred tortoises with rounder shape you are thinking about????

 

[-EJ]

Sorry... the link you provided is a general CITES link and I can't get it to recognise the Aldabra tortoise.

It seems it is App II but only because it is a tortoise...as I stated.

As to sources... my comments end.

You're a person who I don't think is good for the hobby of tortoise keeping.

I gotta ask... what kind of tortoises do you keep and how did you obtain them?

Sorry if I missed your previous posts.

Oh... wild Aldabras come from the Aldabra Atoll. It is a very small piece of property... one species.

Aldabras are certainly Cites II listed species did you not read the link I forwarded? Not only that but they are in review which means the status of wild Aldabras or Aldabrchelys gigantea Cites classified II are considered more than just vulnerable due to the plummeting rate of wild numbers. This means they are under urgent investigation.

I can hardly see America as being the hub of world wide distribution of Seychelles bred Aldabrachelys gigantea tortoises today in fact if they are this is contravening the international Cites agreement and all concerned would be delighted to hear more from you. Not any time now or in the near past has this been allowed legally.

I shall endeavour to research this and make sure it stops if it is the truth. However I find it highly unlikely as the Seychelles dont even have a quota for export for 2011 and the rest is known. The last captive legal juveniles exported as I said was 2003 and who knows where these went. Right?.

If you know any different to Cites I am keen to know.

By the way the Tanzania quota was for F1 hybrids only. Perhaps these are the mixed bred tortoises with rounder shape you are thinking about????

 

[River14]

Im not sure what you are insinuating this is a direct link to Cites look up Aldabrachelys gigantea if you are able ( synonym Dipsochelys dussumieri) as anyone can easily ascertain for themselves with one click that you are deluded.

Sorry what is your point exactly? Do you wish to discuss genetics or your miss information and use of the internet?

And if not would you care to discuss it with Cites instead? I am sure they would be very interested in your assertions that America is the hub of Seychelles bred Aldabra distribution world wide?

 

[-EJ]

you're cute. Thanks for the giggle. Enlighten me more...

Im not sure what you are insinuating this is a direct link to Cites and Aldabrachelys gigantea ( synonym Dipsochelys dussumieri) as anyone can easily ascertain for themselves with one click.

Sorry what is your point exactly? Do you wish to discuss genetics or your miss information and use of the internet?

And if not would you care to discuss it with Cites instead? I am sure they would be interested in your assertions.

---

As far as the internet goes... it's powerful and limited at the same time.

Recheck the number of aldabras that have been exported out of the Seychells... legally.

Adults have been shipped... legally.

Again... I'm done.

I'm curious... how old are you?

I find not since 2003 have any captive bred or wild Aldabrachelys gigantea legally left the Seychelles for any where, and that's eight years ago? When 100 captive bred juveniles in 2003 were allowed, where they went is not clear, Im supposing not at all did all go to America but rather a few zoos across the world, depending on genetics. These would still not be of breeding age today obviously. So Im wondering in legal terms how America is suddenly the legal hub of distribution across the world for Seychelles bred Aldabrachelys? Not since 2001 were 15 wild juvenile specimens exported not even these would be of breeding age now.

As far as genetics is concerned I would say there is definitely a specific gene pool especially in the private sector?

Take a look yourself.

Im still a bit in the clouds how these oblong "American bred" tortoises got to Hong Kong legally. Not to mention the radiated tortoises originally from Madagascar completely and completely illegal to trade anywhere except in the united states it seems? And why this is so I also have no clue. Creating a demand is the worst fastest possible route to extinction of a species in the wild as we all already know right?

http://www.cites.org/eng/resources/species.html[hr]
Ps the most exported tody are F1 hybrids from Tanzania?

 

[egyptiandan]

I didn't notice anywhere on the list that said any animals were hyrids. F1 specimens, yes; hybrids, no

Danny

 

[-EJ]

I don't know how you can have hybrids with such a limited population... Gerlich... opened the door to Hybrids.

I didn't notice anywhere on the list that said any animals were hyrids. F1 specimens, yes; hybrids, no

Danny

 

[egyptiandan]

I know, but now they have subsumed the 2 other "species" into Dipsochelys dussumieri and are only considering that they might be subspecies of D. dussumieri not full species. So if they bred would only be considered crosses at most right now.

Danny

 

[River14]

F1's are F1's what can I say, they have been realised in Tanzania with what and how I have no clue?

Any doubt ask Cites.

I ask you however where are these legal rapid turn over exports from the Seychelles that America apparently distributes across the globe in the face of Cites regulations and quotas, and more to the point to America itself? Care to show where in cites 2011 2010 etc etc this has ever been a reality? A legal reality?

You make the point all I ask is for you to substantiate it with proof and the relative documentation from the open and free for all to see Cites records?