Euthanizing a tortoise

[Meg90]

What about species that never hibernate? Sulcata, most Greeks? Iguanas? Leopard geckos? A lot of reptile species NEVER hibernate, or encounter cold of any type.

I think your vet was ill informed when it came to reptiles. To die by freezing to death is not painless.

 

[galvinkaos]

Freezing is inhumane. You'd be better off drowning. I cannot imagine a reptile NOT feeling pain while being frozen, the same way any other living thing would feel if in the same situation. Would you freeze a kitten? No.

Honestly, if something has to be euthanized, bring it to the vet and have it done with CO2 That way the animal literally goes to sleep. But IMO a freezer is a terrible way to die for anything, especially something cold blooded.

Not that I want to be ever taken up on it, but I have access to a euthanizing chamber (C02) at work and can use it if needed. If the horrible need comes up, PM or email me. I am in the San Gabriel Valley in CA, USA. I cannot imagine freezing any animal to death as much as I hate cold.

The state of CA requires C02 euthanization for any trapped wild animal (skunks, raccoons, opossums, etc) that is trapped due to being a nuisance - in or under someone's house, etc. It is illegal to relocate them. We have to use live animal traps with food and water , so they don't suffer but then we have to kill them. Weird laws, huh?

Dawna

 

[reptylefreek]

I'm for freezing if you cant get to a vet in time. If they are on the brink of dying and are most likely feeling pain anyway whats the difference. I also agree with Madkins, if the animal is large enough I would say decapitate. Sounds really gross but what ever puts them outa there misery faster. Just think when some torts die in the wild, they die a slow dehydrated death. Almost anything we do (freezer, Co2, shot) is better then that.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

It used to be common practice to put a sick or dying turtle in the freezer. The theory being that their system slows down to a state of hibernation then they freeze without realizing they are freezing. Sounds harsh but I know a buncha people who have done it...

 

[Sudhira]

If something is in extremis, I would want to dispatch them quickly.

 

[mctlong]

I still think that, if the option is available, taking a tort to a vet and having it euthanized via injection is preferable to all the methods discussed above (both for the tort and the owner). Injection strikes me as the most humane, but I still wonder of the injection causes pain? Can we ever know for sure?

 

[moonraser]

DE...DE...D.E.C.A.P.I.T.A.T.E !?!?!?! That is scarymake me think of chainsaw massacre 100 time no for me.

 

[Madortoise]

Very interesting thread...not a pleasant one at all but it makes me think...it is evident from diversity in our responses that we all perceive death and suffering differently for our reptile friends/families.
I once had a biology major friend from CalTech who said that she only eats clams but not other seafood because mollusks have less developed nervous system and did not suffer from the pain when they were killed. I also had a friend who had to euthanize her cat upon recommendation of her vet and witnessed her cat being terrified at her very last moment from being forcefully being subjected to an injection. She was going to sue the vet afterwards and went through a period of depression/psychotherapy. Some of these answers reflect what people think is just for your little friends. We all have to do what we believe is best for our tort/turtle.
If I ever have to, with dark and sunken heart, I might choose freezing b/c desert tortoises do hibernate and if one was badly injured, it'll likely not to survive the long hibernation plus I find comfort in thinking that I am allowing mine to sleep (though it may be induced) rather than to inject w/chemicals or suffocate....but that's just me with my value system speaking. What's right and just for one person may not apply to others.

 

[Isa]

I have to say that I am against decapitation ( a big nono) and I am against the freezing thing! I could never put a live animal or reptile in the freezer. I would hate it if I would be suffering and someone would put me in the freezer, so it is the same thing! IMO Bring the tortoise or turtle to the vet ( euthanasia) is the smarter and the humane thing to do.

 

[bettinge]

There is still debate as to whether injection is a humane way to kill prisoners on death row! If the debate exists there, then I do not think we can assume its pain free for animals. A fast death seems best! Decapitation does sound fastest, but horible for the owner! I do think I would, now that I know about it, choose the refrigerator/freezer method.

I do agree with the vet seeing the tort first since it seems tortoises can recover from some pretty horible circumstances.

I recently had a chameleon die a slow and natural death, and vowed to never do that again!

 

[Shelly]

I have to say that I am against decapitation ( a big nono) and I am against the freezing thing! I could never put a live animal or reptile in the freezer. I would hate it if I would be suffering and someone would put me in the freezer, so it is the same thing! IMO Bring the tortoise or turtle to the vet ( euthanasia) is the smarter and the humane thing to do.

If you found a tort horribly injured from an animal attack or after being run over by a car, waiting several hours for a vet appointment is not a good option.
I once had to decapitate a chicken. It wasn't fun, but I do think that is probably the best way if it needs to be done NOW.

 

[Crazy1]

Well this topic got me to thinking early this morning. Darn you for making me think so early.

I too find it interesting the views of each of the members who answered and know that each of us care dearly for are animals, regardless of what they are.

First Hibernation:
Torts are not near death during hibernation. Well not my two anyway. They will hiss, or retract a leg if I touch them, they will turn in their burrows and containers. Though I don’t think they are totally awake, they are not so deep in sleep that they feel nothing. Their bodies do slow during hibernation, as evidenced by not eating, drinking or defecating. But they don’t totally turn off during hibernation.
Perhaps if their body temps dropped low enough they would go deeper into a slumber. However I know if a tort is not protected from freezing temperatures the first thing to freeze is his eyes, which would/and do cause blindness if the tort does survive the freeze.
Though I am not sure about how pain registers in a tort as compared to a human (we often put human feelings on things so we can associate with them easier) . A Dog or cat seems to recover from a horrific injury or surgery much faster than a human. It seems that they don’t feel the pain as long or as extreme as we do (again putting human feelings and time frames on animals). So perhaps putting the same pain meter on them as a human is just not the same.

Animals no matter what kind respond to threats in many complex ways some will fight when cornered, others stand perfectly still so predators will not see them, many freeze or play dead in hopes that the predator will lose interest. Some can even change color swiftly to camouflage themselves. These responses are triggered by the sympathetic nervous system, but in order to fit the model of fight or flight, the idea of flight must be broadened to include escaping capture in either a physical way or in a sensory way. Thus, flight can be disappearing to another location or just disappearing in place. And often both fight and flight are combined in a given situation.
This response was later recognized as the first stage of a general adaptation syndrome that regulates stress responses among vertebrates and other organisms. So if an animal perceives enough stress they either run away, fight or freeze. Our torts Freeze, like opossums they play dead. Hoping the threat (stressor) leaves it alone and goes away or hurts it less because it thinks its dead.

Why say all this you ask? Well this is the process I go through when faced with a question like this. Is this a living thinking animal? Does it perceive threats, stress, pain? Perhaps not in the same way as I but none the less I think they do.


So I think what it boils down to the way we view what is humane. To that each one of us will have a slightly different view and feelings. So my first question would be how do you define humane?
Is it caring, kind, gentle, compassionate, benevolent, civilized, charitable, marked by compassion, sympathy, or consideration for humans or animals? these are just some of the dictionary definitions of humane. Think about what you perceive as humane.

Humans in the past have tried what they deemed “humane” ways of killing
for decades upon decades and have still not come up with a “humane” way, in my opinion. Hanging, decapitation, gassing, electrocution, lethal injections were all considered humane ways to put a person to death at one time or another. Only to be determined at a later time that they all had their faults and perhaps were not so humane.

Again I myself place human feelings in this mix. If I were a tort that was horribly hurt or injured would I want to be put down? And if I do, how would I want to go? The last one is easy, without additional pain or stress of course. Now is there such a thing? I believe the way my vet does it is best. They give a shot that actually puts the animal into a deep sleep, as if they are going to have surgery, before administering it the injection that simply stops its heart. Yep that would be my vote.

 

[Isa]

I have to say that I am against decapitation ( a big nono) and I am against the freezing thing! I could never put a live animal or reptile in the freezer. I would hate it if I would be suffering and someone would put me in the freezer, so it is the same thing! IMO Bring the tortoise or turtle to the vet ( euthanasia) is the smarter and the humane thing to do.

If you found a tort horribly injured from an animal attack or after being run over by a car, waiting several hours for a vet appointment is not a good option.
I once had to decapitate a chicken. It wasn't fun, but I do think that is probably the best way if it needs to be done NOW.

I could never decapitate an animal or reptile, but that is me. I do not think a vet would make me wait if I called and explained them the situation. I am sure mine would not wait to put the tortoise to sleep and I am sure he would make me come to the office right away.
I take my example again, If I would be suffering like crazy, I would not want someone to decapitate me.

---

Very great post Robyn!
You have added very interesting points

 

[Madkins007]

Remember that the OP included the line "and the vet is not an option". That rather limits our choices.

Dr. Mader "Reptile Medicine and Surgery" dedicates all of Chapter 33 to this issue, and discusses loss and grief in an earlier chapter. This is a big issue for vets.

His thoughts on the various methods for turtles and tortoises, summarized, are:
- 'Yes' on 'Deep freezing' for smaller reptiles (under 40g), ie. using liquid nitrogen. He mentions that many disagree with 'regular freezing' but that it is widely practiced.
- 'No' to inhalants. He points out that turtles and crocs can live in a pure CO2 environment for up to 27 hours, so this is not a humane method. (Sorry Meg- his comments, not mine.)
- 'No' to externally administered agents.
- 'Yes' to many chemical methods, like overdose of barbiturates. He points out pros and cons to several meds and methods of injection. he also points out that turtles and tortoises are resistant to many poisons, common drugs, etc. Sadly, this is not an option to most of us away from a vet.
- 'Yes' to 'physical methods', by which he means some combination of 'pithing' or mechanical damage to the brain, and decapitation.

In my post I was not trying to tell people what to do, just pointing out the two main options away from a vet. If you cannot use a vet, decaptitation, especially if you pith the animal as well, is gruesome but is the quickest and surest. But it is emotionally hard on the people involved.

Freezing has a lot of problems, but it is better than some other options. There may be pain (it is hotly debated in some circles- many feel that the chilling numbs the animal adequately). This is not an option you would use on mammals since their metabolisms will fight the process and cause more suffering.

I've had to put down a few animals in my life. I have used the vet or animal welfare for several of them, but have also used freezing on a badly injured Russian and a few other small reptiles. It would not be my first choice, but it is often an expedient choice, especially if time (and I hate to say it, but cost as well) is an issue.

 

[Yvonne G]

Also, as to an inhaled toxin: Tortoises can hold their breath for a very long time. One of my desert tortoises could not be operated on because she would not breathe when they put the mask over her face.

 

[Shelly]

Remember that the OP included the line "and the vet is not an option". That rather limits our choices.

Dr. Mader "Reptile Medicine and Surgery" dedicates all of Chapter 33 to this issue, and discusses loss and grief in an earlier chapter. This is a big issue for vets.

His thoughts on the various methods for turtles and tortoises, summarized, are:
- 'Yes' on 'Deep freezing' for smaller reptiles (under 40g), ie. using liquid nitrogen. He mentions that many disagree with 'regular freezing' but that it is widely practiced.
- 'No' to inhalants. He points out that turtles and crocs can live in a pure CO2 environment for up to 27 hours, so this is not a humane method. (Sorry Meg- his comments, not mine.)
- 'No' to externally administered agents.
- 'Yes' to many chemical methods, like overdose of barbiturates. He points out pros and cons to several meds and methods of injection. he also points out that turtles and tortoises are resistant to many poisons, common drugs, etc. Sadly, this is not an option to most of us away from a vet.
- 'Yes' to 'physical methods', by which he means some combination of 'pithing' or mechanical damage to the brain, and decapitation.

In my post I was not trying to tell people what to do, just pointing out the two main options away from a vet. If you cannot use a vet, decaptitation, especially if you pith the animal as well, is gruesome but is the quickest and surest. But it is emotionally hard on the people involved.

Freezing has a lot of problems, but it is better than some other options. There may be pain (it is hotly debated in some circles- many feel that the chilling numbs the animal adequately). This is not an option you would use on mammals since their metabolisms will fight the process and cause more suffering.

I've had to put down a few animals in my life. I have used the vet or animal welfare for several of them, but have also used freezing on a badly injured Russian and a few other small reptiles. It would not be my first choice, but it is often an expedient choice, especially if time (and I hate to say it, but cost as well) is an issue.

Excellent post.

 

[-EJ]

This is a cool thread.

Anyone who has a large collection runs into this relatively frequently.

Many of the 'new' vets believe that freezing is cruel... I don't agree.

Reptiles are poikilotherms. Their metabolism is based on temperature. If you drop the temperature... metabolic functions also drop. This is what causes 'hibernation'. If you take it a step further... they die.

I do need to say that many well respected herp vets think this is wrong and that the herps feel pain. Is this a matter of learning on the vets part or having a feeling for the topic.

I believe that freezing is an option for euthanizing a reptile.

 

[Meg90]

Many of the 'new' vets believe that freezing is cruel... I don't agree.

I do need to say that many well respected herp vets think this is wrong and that the herps feel pain. Is this a matter of learning on the vets part or having a feeling for the topic.

You said "vets" believe that reptiles feel pain...you don't?

 

[-EJ]

No... all living critters feel pain... no argument there.

In the case of freezing reptiles... that's open to discussion.

Many of the 'new' vets believe that freezing is cruel... I don't agree.

I do need to say that many well respected herp vets think this is wrong and that the herps feel pain. Is this a matter of learning on the vets part or having a feeling for the topic.

You said "vets" believe that reptiles feel pain...you don't?

 

[dmmj]

Immersion in liquid nitrogen is a lot different than just putting a tort in a freezer. LN is about as quick and painless as death can get but most of us do not have ready access to this product,