Coconut Oil

[glitch4200]

Let the dots continue..

So this is the graph of the action potential of decomposition of virgin coconut oil over a 4 day period at 37 C.

Here is the graph with corresponding data.



If you note in particular the lactic acid build up with an increase of moisture in the oil when being cultured at 37 C.

Here is the funny thing.. my tortoise is often around 37 C. In a humid environment (max moisture potential), so I can say that I am probably getting max lactic acid build up on the Keratin, in this particular situation with my tortoises and my applications of coconut oil as often as 4x a week. Which knowing now that is gently eats away keratin, why I have been adding dry periods every couple of weeks...

Here is my tortoise cultivating lactic acid at almost 37 C within 4 days of applications lol.

 

[Anyfoot]

This really made me laugh and it further shows that coconut oil is able to absorb the infrared emitted by incandescent and mercury vapor bulbs in the IR spectrum.... So from being on many facebook tortoise groups, instagram and here i have seen probably the most common lamps used in indoor tortoise keeping is a mercury vapor bulb and a incandescent bulb to generate heat for their tortoises. I want to focus on infrared for a second because this is very important ... Here we have a 75 watt incandescent light bulb... take a look at the relative spectral power of this lamp..... I had to look twice. Where does the peak of this lights power fall under? at 100% power it peaks in the 800nanometer according to this chart on the light box by exo terra.

but wait a second.... this lamp offers very little visible light.... and an extremely unbalanced IR range. I would argue, dangerous actually.. expecially combined with the "unfiltered" aspect of this type of light...

The 75 watt lamp PEAKS at the infrared level... and then the range falls off the chart.... falls off the chart... but yet those "unfiltered" wavelengths are creating havok on the external keratin and skin of all indoor kept torotises. Now that i can prove that coconut oil absorbs wavelengths past the 2000 nanometer range as according to the graph. Coconut oil has its water absorbed (yes it contains water) at around 3500 nanometers shown on this graph.

That is if i am reading this all right.... and i am understand these concepts correctly... hopefully i am ... can anyone agree or disagree with this?

When I get time , I'm going to catch up with what you are doing. Bit busy at the minute. Oh and if I get my daughter off the bloody minecraft game on my computer. lol

 

[Jared121599]

So is it good or not to put coconut oil on a tortoises she'll.

 

[Jared121599]

That is suppose to be shell

 

[glitch4200]

So is it good or not to put coconut oil on a tortoises she'll.

I would argue all day that coconut oil is the best natural substance to ever be smeared on a tortoise. EVER.

It's completely organic. 100% natural.

Made of over 95% medium chain fatty acids.

Over 50% Lauric acid content that can kill almost as many pathogens as lysol is present in this oil.

Spf of coconut oil is 7.119 (journal of cosmetic science) offering UV protection.

Coconut oil has an absorption range between 280 nanometers and 4000 nanometers (700 to 4000 is infrared spectrum)
(680 to 280 nano meters is visible light and UV spectrum) where it has the capability to actually block "unfiltered" wavelengths. (Link above)

Coconut oil is proven to decompose into lactic acid. The rate at which coconut oil decomposes into lactic acid is very powerful when combined with high moisture and high heat specifically (37 c) which my indoor habitats easily provide. I use high heat , higher moisture in my habitats.

Lactic acid is a keratolytic, which means it gently eats beta keratin build up. So the constant build up from my applications and exposure to heat and moisture have literally been eating the shell of my tortosie. But gently...

Why is this imporant? Well my theory is that these artifical lamps promote proliferation of the keratin of tortoises by unevenly heating the shell and skin to points of extended heat build up alone the scute lines. The build of up heat along the scute lines promotes 2 things. #1 by overheating the surrounding tissues , blood vessels and keratin you are releasing massive amounts of water from the keratin and surrounding tissues.
Because of "unfiltered" infrared the constant bombardment of unfiltered light is creating severe hot spots, thus releasing this unnaturally wicked away moisture, normally not taken in outdoor kept tortoises In natural sun light.

#2. Is the idea that the tortoise has a way to try and counteract crap "unfiltered" infrared and artifical lights.. Keratin has the ability to proliferate. That means create more beta keratin. My idea is that pyramiding has much to do with the fact of the tortoises natural response to high powered , crap heat distributed light by making the keratin proliferate. By increasing surface area of the shell (proliferation) , increasing distance between the scute lining and top of keratin (pyramiding) you somewhat counteract lamp made "hot spots" on the shell of the tortoise.

So naturally the tortoise is using its keratin to help shield the sensitive scute edges from literally having all its water evaporated from these unevenly distributed, highly powerful infrared lamps.

I know there is a lot of talk about the underlying bone being responsible for pyramiding but with the right diet , you eliminate that idea. And are just left with hydration of the Keratin and surrounding tissues.. as I have read many trials on specifying diet as the prime cause of pyramiding , which held to not be as Tru as originally thought. Cuz as breeders tried all the diets under the sun only hydration turned out to be the main burner behind pyramiding.

So yes I argue that this oil is the best oil to ever be applied to a tortoise ever.

 

[WithLisa]

Coconut oil has an absorption range between 280 nanometers and 4000 nanometers (700 to 4000 is infrared spectrum)
(680 to 280 nano meters is visible light and UV spectrum) where it has the capability to actually block "unfiltered" wavelengths. (Link above)

I don't know anything that doesn't absorb infrared. Or do you think the specific peaks of EVCO (as can be seen in the link) are important?

#2. Is the idea that the tortoise has a way to try and counteract crap "unfiltered" infrared and artifical lights.. Keratin has the ability to proliferate. That means create more beta keratin.

I have seen some extremely pyramided shells. Most of them had thicker spongy bones, but none of them had a thicker keratin layer than a healthy tortoise.
Scratches and damages on the shell take a very long time to disappear, that's why I think the keratin is growing quite slowly, I would not try to destroy it intentionally.

Maybe it would be a good idea to wrap the shell in plastic, that would also absorb infrared and keep the moisture in.

 

[glitch4200]

I don't know anything that doesn't absorb infrared. Or do you think the specific peaks of EVCO (as can be seen in the link) are important?


I have seen some extremely pyramided shells. Most of them had thicker spongy bones, but none of them had a thicker keratin layer than a healthy tortoise.
Scratches and damages on the shell take a very long time to disappear, that's why I think the keratin is growing quite slowly, I would not try to destroy it intentionally.

Maybe it would be a good idea to wrap the shell in plastic, that would also absorb infrared and keep the moisture in.

I think the peaks are important.

And how do you know the Keratin was not way more built up then you say? If the bone is spongy and weak would it not be true that mechanical stresses from beta Kerstin under stress from artifical lamps would not play on the deformation of bone? if bone becomes spongy would it also not be true that you have more surface area of bone being pronounced thus you must absolutely have more proliferation of keratin?

You already know plastic is an impractical idea..

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

It's completely organic. 100% natural.

i need point out that Plutonium is also “completely organic. 100% natural." As is nicotine, arsenic and all manner of poisons. Simply identifying something as natural and organic doesn't in and of itself make it good, it simply means it has not been added to or altered from its original state. (Which I might add, pressed coconut oil is a deliberate concentration of the oil and in no way would it ever be found in that state in the “real" world, the exception maybe at tourist resorts.

 

[glitch4200]

i need point out that Plutonium is also “completely organic. 100% natural." As is nicotine, arsenic and all manner of poisons. Simply identifying something as natural and organic doesn't in and of itself make it good, it simply means it has not been added to or altered from its original state. (Which I might add, pressed coconut oil is a deliberate concentration of the oil and in no way would it ever be found in that state in the “real" world, the exception maybe at tourist resorts.

Fair enough. I just say natural and organic to make know it does not have added chemicals or impurities in it. But your right on that clarification, my bad. It's not hard to make your own oil from coconuts..

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

In reality, in that humans are of this planet and part of the “organic" systems, all that we do or create is organic as well.

 

[WithLisa]

And how do you know the Keratin was not way more built up then you say?

The Keratin layer fell off and it was thin. Thinner and more pliable than my fingernails.

If the bone is spongy and weak would it not be true that mechanical stresses from beta Kerstin under stress from artifical lamps would not play on the deformation of bone? if bone becomes spongy would it also not be true that you have more surface area of bone being pronounced thus you must absolutely have more proliferation of keratin?

I'm quite sure that pyramiding is caused by mechanical stresses from Kerstin, but the Keratin doesn't have to be thick to deform the bone. On the contrary, I think a thin layer dries out sooner and can deform easier. Maybe that's why it only happens on the scute lines, where the new growing Keratin is still soft and thin?

You already know plastic is an impractical idea..

Not necessarily. I once knew someone who used acrylic lacquer on his tortoise and it seemed to be alright (I guess it could cause growing problems, but the tortoise was already an adult).
Of course I would never do that! But neither would I use EVCO or lactic acid. In my opinion, all of them are totally unnatural for tortoises that have evolved to live on calcium-rich soil without any oils or acids.

 

[Landers]

Hello everyone, I've just joined.
I'm gonna try this oil too on my little guy. He is outside and inside and I've only just taken him in (his previous owner died) and he is a bit dry.. I reckon his shell would respond well to some TLC.
Thanks for the advice. H x

 

[Anyfoot]

Hello everyone, I've just joined.
I'm gonna try this oil too on my little guy. He is outside and inside and I've only just taken him in (his previous owner died) and he is a bit dry.. I reckon his shell would respond well to some TLC.
Thanks for the advice. H x

Welcome H. This oil is under debate. I should read more of this thread first. Just letting you know. Personally I'm on the fence at the minute with this subject. If your tort is very dry. You should bathe in warm water for 20 minutes or so. This will hydrate your tort.

 

[glitch4200]

I can't figure out why you are doing this. Even accepting your research as presented, why not just keep your tortoise hydrated and eliminate uneven heating? This is easily accomplished, for example, by using multiple bulbs of lower wattage. You are instead recommending essentially a chemical peal of keratin scar tissue. Even if your understanding of the physiology is correct (which is not established) the approach seems backwards and introduces an unneeded variable.

The idea is that soaking and humidity and adding multiple bulbs still doesn't take away the 'unfiltered" IR from these lamps. And still having Temps in the upper 90s as basking means they are still exposed to this dehydrating conditions. It compounds... this oil seems to be capable of easing the effects of unfiltered Infrared from lamp to tort.

 

[glitch4200]

Then why don't torts raised with proper lighting and hydration have damaged shells?

Define proper lighting.. define proper hydration.. lots of people are so confused when it comes to lighting set ups and proper hydration.. and each tort species needs different set ups... so it's not like it's one way of doing it... one thing I have realized while being in the tortoise community is that many of keeprs lack either hydration knowledge or proper lighting knowledge. The majority of keepers I see in all these Facebook groups and some of theseforums seem to lack essential parts of a torts thriving nature.

I can not tell you how many people don't mind humidity in there habitats. I can't tell you how many people think 25c is appropriate basking Temps... I can't tell you how many people think one heat lamp is sufficient for basking and ambient temps.. I would argue majority of torts I see are being housed at the recommendation of pet shops.. and then get advice from groups pretty much showing how the pet shop was dead wrong.

Pet shops have horrible care outlines.. selling tort owners mostly crap and telling them that it's the way it should be. I argue many people are not getting the hydrating and lighting correct. So since I see this as true... I argue that coconut oil is a decent added benefit to some of these set ups.

No matter what you .. your exposing your tortoise to unfiltered radiation.. unfiltered radiation is unnatural in every sense of the word. No tortoise is ever exposed to unfiltered light at any point in there 85 plus year lives.. wild torts have the sun. Indoor torts have **** artifical lamps. That fact alone means you could NEVER mimic outside.

Unless we find a way to filter the light radiation or... find a way to help counteract the unfiltered radiation.

 

[glitch4200]

Proper husbandry has been defined ad nauseum; seemingly every fourth post. No where is 25C and unmonitored humidity recommended. Under those conditions, shell damage is the least concern. Railing against Petco advice is fine and warranted but coconut oil is not going to address that. Lastly, Infrared radiation is commonly called heat. It doesn't need to be filtered or blocked, it needs to be species appropriate, well distributed, available on a gradient, and balanced with other light spectra.

What do you mean it doesn't need to be filtered ! The entire spectrum of the sun is filtered ! Everything from infrared to ultraviolet light is filtered. Every single ray passes thru earth atmosphere which is highly wager laden.. it is a vital component to this whole idea! To say filtration has no effect it is obvious you don't understand the idea.

Artifical lamps do not have an atmosphere to go thru before hitting the tortoise . Artifical lamps are horrible at reproducing the balanced spectum of the sun. It is highly unbalanced and harmful. It cooks the keratin and skin instead of gently heating the keratin and skin like the sun does.

 

[glitch4200]

Proper husbandry has been defined ad nauseum; seemingly every fourth post. No where is 25C and unmonitored humidity recommended. Under those conditions, shell damage is the least concern. Railing against Petco advice is fine and warranted but coconut oil is not going to address that. Lastly, Infrared radiation is commonly called heat. It doesn't need to be filtered or blocked, it needs to be species appropriate, well distributed, available on a gradient, and balanced with other light spectra.

You would be surprised to know that 25 C. And no humidity is much recommened by people.. I see it all the time on Facebook groups. All the time. Of course people say something like myself. But just today on a group I had someone who was told that the basking temp if a baby Russian was suppose to be 25 C... and then they asked why it always slept. Well they were told wrong. But my point is that it is more prevalent than you think. Maybe not here in the tortoise forum but elsewhree..

 

[glitch4200]

Understand my applications do not replace humidity or soaking or access to clean drinking water. Which is the most widely accepted methods of hydrating a tortoise.

 

[glitch4200]

Sir, I am professionally responsible for quantifying the UV out put of welding operations, germicidal lamps and laboratory procedures. I use a spectrometer and Lux meter to configure lighting designs to minimize eye fatigue and optimize resolution. In short, I understand the idea.
The sunlight reaching the earths surface is roughly about 55% IR, 40% visible, with the remainder being UVB and UVA. If sunlight wasn't filtered through the atmosphere we would all die. However, the result at the surface is possible to replicate, but you'll need more than one light source. Indoor husbandry is challenging and expensive but claiming it is impossible based on Facebook posts, Petco, and Internet searches is a straw man.
I have a suggestion. I have a two year old Marginated (most similar to a Russian that I have). I'll post pictures of the shell and you can explain why a substance that dissolves keratin should be applied to her shell.

That is awesome then your knowledge is much needed to help me understand this idea better, but please tell how you feel you can replicate the outside if there is a lack of filtration between tort and lamp. By adding multiple lamps, decreasing localized heating by supplying better more spread light , how do we take away the dehydrating ability of the unfiltered aspect of this? Because without water filtering these lamps you can not deny it is not harming the tortoise.

I also never meant to portray that it is impossible to not get close to the most ideal setting and environment as possible.. but without filtration it is not the same

 

[WithLisa]

By adding multiple lamps, decreasing localized heating by supplying better more spread light , how do we take away the dehydrating ability of the unfiltered aspect of this?

The spectrum of a heat lamp is not more dehydrating than the sun. This is just a problem of air temperature, humidity and localized heating.

I'll post pictures of the shell and you can explain why a substance that dissolves keratin should be applied to her shell.

A substance that not only dissolves keratin but also is carcinogenic...