Coconut Oil

Anyfoot

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That is excellent idea. I was thinking of buying a like 6 to 8 of low wattage sockets for some low wattage bulbs, combine the sockets into rows using a piece of nice wood, wire them up to an audio control unit [multi-port power box] that has a plug to the wall for power. Then use thermal house siding that has 99.7 uv and ir reflectivity to line the outside of the sockets creating depth[not touching of course] to create a deep dome effect to better direct heat.

Like you said instead of having one powerful 100 watt bulb as a basking light that creates localized hot spots, why not try many small incandescent bulbs rigged together to create a huge basking zone over a more spaced out area... hmmmm.....then we can change distance and add or subtract sockets if needed for achieving the heated zone that I want without creating such localized heating...

hmm ponder ponder ponder.. then I'll need to rent that thermal imaging camera again and run the tests using my invention and comparing it to the heating of a single 100 watt incandescent bulb.. interesting...

I'll see what I can rig togher. I already have an idea. Basic wood box with slits for ventilation to accommodate up to 8 small wattage sockets, 8 small wattage bulbs, line the box with thermal paneling to help create dome effect, all wired up to my power box that can be plugged in which will have a fuse to prevent shorting it all out.

This box can be adjusted easily by proving a sliding mechanism since I'll attach it to a sturdy wood frame so we can achieve the depth for the experiment.

I'll get to work.
When I 1st built a tortoise table I had a covered part that was 2x4ft, In this part of the enclosure I had a large tray that had soil and water in it creating a marsh for my redfoots to bathe in. At 1st to get the humidity and temperature up I used a 100watt spot bulb, problem was where the bulbs beam of light hit the marsh it got it that hot the marsh steamed and I could only just touch the marsh because of the heat spot. So to get around this a replaced the 100watt bulb with two 50watt bulbs at about 30" apart . I maintaned the same heat, humidity reading actually got higher and there was no hot spot on the marsh. An ambient temperature was achieved with no hot spots, instead of an ambient temperature with a hot spot. Hot spots reduce humidity in the area of the heated spot. i.e the top of the torts carapace. mmm. My brain is in overdrive now. So does the hot spot dry the carapace and contribute to pyramiding. Maybe. There are other things to take into account aswell. But 1st thing is to do your experiment.
I like your commitment.
I have found a major problem with your coconut cream method. It would take me a month to cream all the torts I'm going to end up with. lol
 

HLogic

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Wouldn't you increase pressure in a sealed unit for humidity that is being heated with no where to go? (One in which water is neither entering or exiting) pressure would increase would it not?

Yes, unless it was a flexible container (think balloon).

BTW, use a dimmer designed for high-voltage and the amperage/wattage expected. Audio controls are usually not designed to sink that much power.
 

glitch4200

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I maintaned the same heat, humidity reading actually got higher and there was no hot spot on the marsh. An ambient temperature was achieved with no hot spots, instead of an ambient temperature with a hot spot. Hot spots reduce humidity in the area of the heated spot. i.e the top of the torts carapace. mmm. My brain is in overdrive now. So does the hot spot dry the carapace and contribute to pyramiding. Maybe. There are other things to take into account aswell. But 1st thing is to do your experiment.
I like your commitment.


That is exactly what i am coming to for conclusion on the hot spots, i feel this is extremely important variable to pryamiding in indoor kept tortoises... Let us pretend a keeper has a tortoise in a low humidity evniornment for a second. (Which by the way all these facebook tortoise groups recommend low to no humidity for a russian tortoise except for a small humid hide..[hmhm "tortoiseworld" hmhm "tortoisekeepers]) I highly highly disagree and i find thatmextremely dangerous to the beta keratin of a tortoise as well as the underlying bone structure of the tortoise, any probably going as far as effecting thermal regulation as the tortoise fights to evenly heat and reduce the localized hot spots that are occurring. (I often observe my tortoise use his plants and provided shade under the basking lamps to heat certain parts of his body at a time.) Even though my basking temps do not go above 100, he chooses to often sit under them for hours, half shade/half basking. Same with my female A Pebbles.

Let us say the ambient humidity was at 50% before the lights turned on... Now let us say after those lamps are turned on. According to the backround research i presented in on page 6 and 7, if there is already lack of humidity of sometimes sustained at lower than 20% humididity under those lamps and those lamps are also creating dangerously unevenly heated hot spots, day after day, and the keratin proliferating (building up) as a result to try and reduce water loss is very probable in my opinion. I mean along with poor diet(a fiberous bone structure), lack of water (poor organ function/lack in ability to digest micronutrients), poor humidity ( proper humidity allows equalibrium between outside and inside tortoise by use of beta keratin), combined with bulbs that produce horrible uneven and localized hot spots, would it be no wonder the shell and underlying bone structure would deform? All that pressure along the tortoises structure and all those variables combined to me is the clear problem in indoor pyramiding. Plain and Simple. Pic: taken like 8 minutes after she first went under the lamps... Those hots spots on her shell are probably like 90 degrees.
FLIR0209.jpg t



To me this just makes sense... Like a lot of sense.... After everything i have read about pyramiding and hydration and wavelength and habitats.. it all makes sense too me... I see why tortoises are pyramiding and to be honest i see the problem is very simple. But this thread is not for that. This thread is about coconut oil. But after almost 4 months of consistent applications of EVCO. I am a firm believer in what i am doing. After all the observations, temp taking, research, homework, and passion for my tortoises. I firmly believe i will be applying this oil forever to them as long as there indoor kept.

I'm post an update with pictures shortly.
 

Anyfoot

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That is exactly what i am coming to for conclusion on the hot spots, i feel this is extremely important variable to pryamiding in indoor kept tortoises... Let us pretend a keeper has a tortoise in a low humidity evniornment for a second. (Which by the way all these facebook tortoise groups recommend low to no humidity for a russian tortoise except for a small humid hide..[hmhm "tortoiseworld" hmhm "tortoisekeepers]) I highly highly disagree and i find thatmextremely dangerous to the beta keratin of a tortoise as well as the underlying bone structure of the tortoise, any probably going as far as effecting thermal regulation as the tortoise fights to evenly heat and reduce the localized hot spots that are occurring. (I often observe my tortoise use his plants and provided shade under the basking lamps to heat certain parts of his body at a time.) Even though my basking temps do not go above 100, he chooses to often sit under them for hours, half shade/half basking. Same with my female A Pebbles.

Let us say the ambient humidity was at 50% before the lights turned on... Now let us say after those lamps are turned on. According to the backround research i presented in on page 6 and 7, if there is already lack of humidity of sometimes sustained at lower than 20% humididity under those lamps and those lamps are also creating dangerously unevenly heated hot spots, day after day, and the keratin proliferating (building up) as a result to try and reduce water loss is very probable in my opinion. I mean along with poor diet(a fiberous bone structure), lack of water (poor organ function/lack in ability to digest micronutrients), poor humidity ( proper humidity allows equalibrium between outside and inside tortoise by use of beta keratin), combined with bulbs that produce horrible uneven and localized hot spots, would it be no wonder the shell and underlying bone structure would deform? All that pressure along the tortoises structure and all those variables combined to me is the clear problem in indoor pyramiding. Plain and Simple. Pic: taken like 8 minutes after she first went under the lamps... Those hots spots on her shell are probably like 90 degrees.
View attachment 118283 t



To me this just makes sense... Like a lot of sense.... After everything i have read about pyramiding and hydration and wavelength and habitats.. it all makes sense too me... I see why tortoises are pyramiding and to be honest i see the problem is very simple. But this thread is not for that. This thread is about coconut oil. But after almost 4 months of consistent applications of EVCO. I am a firm believer in what i am doing. After all the observations, temp taking, research, homework, and passion for my tortoises. I firmly believe i will be applying this oil forever to them as long as there indoor kept.

I'm post an update with pictures shortly.

This/your thread is about your thoughts on coconut oil connected to pyramiding, yes but if your experiments lead to other avenues, these avenues should be explored.
That is the purpose of experiments, you learn and likely run off at a tangent. So your not off topic.
If its all about heat displacement and how even it needs to be distributed to give even growth, and this was overcome via a different approach to what is considered the norm, then oiling a tort would not be necessary. You shouldn't frown on yourself if you've discovered something accidentally whilst experimenting with another method, and don't be tunnel visioned to your 1st thought. Take on new discovery and run with it.

If you put pan of baked beans on the stove and wap the heat up full wack, beans burn in the bottom of pan but yet still cold on top, if you apply a slower more moderate heat they all warm more evenly. HEAT SPOT. Man I love Beans on toast for tea. :)

Keep going. Have you done any experiments yet. :D
 

glitch4200

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This/your thread is about your thoughts on coconut oil connected to pyramiding, yes but if your experiments lead to other avenues, these avenues should be explored.
That is the purpose of experiments, you learn and likely run off at a tangent. So your not off topic.
If its all about heat displacement and how even it needs to be distributed to give even growth, and this was overcome via a different approach to what is considered the norm, then oiling a tort would not be necessary. You shouldn't frown on yourself if you've discovered something accidentally whilst experimenting with another method, and don't be tunnel visioned to your 1st thought. Take on new discovery and run with it.

If you put pan of baked beans on the stove and wap the heat up full wack, beans burn in the bottom of pan but yet still cold on top, if you apply a slower more moderate heat they all warm more evenly. HEAT SPOT. Man I love Beans on toast for tea. :)

Keep going. Have you done any experiments yet. :D


Ok :). i shall keep this in mind. I have not done them yet. I have been super busy lol But trust me i have some ideas. I found an adapter for a socket that allows it to be split into 4 seperate sockets and each light being 25watt bulb spread out like an X. Max watt is 100. Which is perfect since instead of 1 bulb, i split that 100 watt bulb into 4x 25 watt bulbs spread out in a X pattern, criss crossing the "heat" zones. It would fit perfectly in my Nibbles Habitat.

I almost have everything needed to do a test of humidity in a vivarium at 12 inches using multiple styles of lamps and lights, I will record humidity at ground zero (basking spot) over a period of time. I have said multiple times that every day i see the effect of these lamps completely dry my habitats, as i have to CONSTANTLY soak it down..
 

glitch4200

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***UPDATE***
It is just now shy just 4 days shy of 4 months of consistent applications for Nibbles, my russian tortoise. I have learned a lot over the 4 months of applications and have much more to learn. I am very confident in what i am doing with all of this. I know there is still a lot of doubt, but that is to be expected. It will take a long time before i see long term effects from this, but i am definitely noting short term effects as a result of these applications, i am quite happy with what i am doing.


This is taken 4 days ago after 3 days of drying out time.. The Nibbles Ninja Lean.
IMG_20150206_094716.jpg
 
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glitch4200

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Pebbles has really shown me her personality in the last 2 months. We are very close now. Her growth has been extremely explosive. Partially my fault. Partially because i feel she was not taken care for for so long. I had her on a critical care feeding schedule because when i got her she was always hungry and lighter then a feather. So i fed her 2 shell sized portions a day for about a month and a week or so, she went from like 10.8 oz to 14.3 oz!!! 0_o Just 2 months! I stopped feeding her 2x a day and she is on Nibbles 1x a day schedule with smaller portions. You can see how much growth she has had, but its very even, and it seems to be leveling out the back scute that was kinda depressed more then the others.
IMG_20150209_165146.jpg
 

glitch4200

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Here is another angle of Pebbles, taken probably a week ago, after 3x-4x EVCO applications about 2 months now during drying out period. You can see how much crazy growth she has undergone. Notice the second to back scute, it seems to be leveling out with the new growth, very interesting.

IMG_20150109_095032.jpg
 

glitch4200

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These first 2 pictures are of Pebbles on December 6th, 2014 right after she got home. The next picture was taken yesterday and is what she looks like now.
20141206_130136.jpg
&
20141206_130321.jpg
VS today 2.13.15

IMG_20150202_172611.jpg

To me this is insane..
 

glitch4200

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Now lets look at my best buddy Nibbles.. He is my slow grower, They are both so intelligent. He has been undergoing my coconut oil torture for just shy of 4 months now. He is very use to my routine now, some days its like hes going to the spa and you couldn't pamper him enough with the oil, other days its like i'm putting acid on him and hes burning alive.. (sorry for the image).. Majority of the time he is very willing to allow me to apply the oil after his bath. I swear one day i had forgot to apply it and he walked over to the coconut oil jar and sat there, which made me remind myself it was EVCO day. He is a weird tortoise. Just like his papa. He was 11.8 oz on 12.10.14 and as of 1.31.15 he was 12.4 oz. I always felt he grew at a nice pace. but during the early winter he actually lost 7 grams but gained it back.

So now lets compare his first photos with his current photos. This is after about 17 months of owning him and 4 months of consistent EVCO applications with drying out periods.

First Day Photos Vs. This week Photo :
S0670628.JPG
VS
IMG_20141224_100857.jpg
S0660627.JPG
Vs
IMG_20150206_094658.jpg
View attachment 118413
VS
View attachment 118414
 

Anyfoot

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Now lets look at my best buddy Nibbles.. He is my slow grower, They are both so intelligent. He has been undergoing my coconut oil torture for just shy of 4 months now. He is very use to my routine now, some days its like hes going to the spa and you couldn't pamper him enough with the oil, other days its like i'm putting acid on him and hes burning alive.. (sorry for the image).. Majority of the time he is very willing to allow me to apply the oil after his bath. I swear one day i had forgot to apply it and he walked over to the coconut oil jar and sat there, which made me remind myself it was EVCO day. He is a weird tortoise. Just like his papa. He was 11.8 oz on 12.10.14 and as of 1.31.15 he was 12.4 oz. I always felt he grew at a nice pace. but during the early winter he actually lost 7 grams but gained it back.

So now lets compare his first photos with his current photos. This is after about 17 months of owning him and 4 months of consistent EVCO applications with drying out periods.

First Day Photos Vs. This week Photo :
View attachment 118403
VS
View attachment 118406
View attachment 118409
Vs
View attachment 118410
View attachment 118413
VS
View attachment 118414
Can you post a today photo of your tort with the exact same angle of view as whats in the first photo please.
 

puffy137

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Thank you glitch for your enthusiasm for this oil . Mine live outside , but their appearance has been improved by being coconutted occasionally. Olive oil which in the old days was always recommended after hibernation , leaves a sticky film which was nasty & collected dust. A nice buff after coconut oil & all is well. I won't pretend to understand about temps & humidity & stuff.My reason for using it is cosmetic only , but thanks again .
 

Anyfoot

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Thank you glitch for your enthusiasm for this oil . Mine live outside , but their appearance has been improved by being coconutted occasionally. Olive oil which in the old days was always recommended after hibernation , leaves a sticky film which was nasty & collected dust. A nice buff after coconut oil & all is well. I won't pretend to understand about temps & humidity & stuff.My reason for using it is cosmetic only , but thanks again .
That word has to be put in the English dictionary "coconutted" . Its an excellent word, don't know why but its making me laugh. Coconutted, yep that would come near cowabunger. Brilliant love it. :)
 

glitch4200

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Can you post a today photo of your tort with the exact same angle of view as whats in the first photo please.



OLD vS TODAY
S0670628.JPG
20150307_103255.jpg
Old Vs Today
S0760641.JPG
20150307_103415.jpg

Here is todays back view.. All these pics are taken during my "dry" period of EVCO applications. After i took these, I soaked both of them and applied EVCO. Nibbles was not having it today.. He is currently unreachable in his burrow. Pebbles enjoyed today.. Polar opposites sometimes. :)
20150304_102417.jpg 20150304_102423.jpg
 

glitch4200

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That word has to be put in the English dictionary "coconutted" . Its an excellent word, don't know why but its making me laugh. Coconutted, yep that would come near cowabunger. Brilliant love it. :)

I have already used "coconutted" inappropriately in almost every setting/context i could, that would get me into trouble.... lmfao. My fiance got annoyed of it after awhile... and it almost got me slapped a couple times tooo.... Thanks for that.. hahahaha. Definitely going to keep that in my arsenal of words. :)

I am so sorry that took so long.. I said next day and almost a month later i got to it haha. I am beginning to notice slight changes in the shell, but nothing to crazy. I would probably say i was over dramatic at times with this oil and its abilities. But either way.. I still feel its helping. I have yet to observe a negative thing from it. I have been supplying "drying" out periods which means one week I will apply it 1x time and see how it goes, but i have an average of 2x a week most weeks. I observe when i let those drying out periods go, i start to see dryness of the keratin again. Like its being robbed of water. (Which it is)...
 

Alaskamike

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I've been coconutting my sulcata and my aldabra about once every 10-14 days or so over the winter. Shells only - caprice and plastron.

They live in outdoor pens with heated hide , so no heat lamps. Florida has mold , Bacteria and high humidity in summer so I'll continue it all year. The anti- fungal and anti- bacterial properties of EVCO are good. I really don't see a down side to use.

My sully was a rescue raised first 2 yrs dry indoors, stunted growth and some pyramiding which is improving. But this is likely the better diet , exercise and outside environment. Lots of good sunshine.

I've looked at other shell products sold and the ingredient list looks bad to me. EVCO being a 100% natural product seems a wise choice it you use anything at all.
 

glitch4200

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Ok.. so I have been doing some thinking..

And I had found some stuff to add to this Evco idea.

Now let me know what you guys think ..

beta & alpha keratin are made up of amino acids (proteins). Both in humans (hair, nail, skin) and reptiles. There are a couple sub groups of a and b keratin but remain very closely related. Here is a research article showing the protein structure of keratin.

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/pr0702619

Now let's connect some dots here..

Now the hair of humans are made of beta keratin. The shell of tortoises are made of beta keratin. The skin of tortoises are made of alpha keratin. Our skin and nails are made of alpha keratin. The lineage of keratin is very similar through biology from what I have read. There are some sub groups of the amino acids that make up each style of Keratin but still roughly the same in relation.

Now according to this research article ..

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12715094

Evco was used among sunflower oil and mineral oil to see what oil worked best in chemical treated, heat treated and untreated hair and which oil was the best for recovering or preventing moisture and protein loss of the hair (mainly beta keratin).

They found that Evco was the only oil to dramatically reduce the protein loss and moisture loss in the beta keratin layers which would of resulted in damaged hair (split ends). This is due to Evco small and light molecular structure and it's ability to penatrate the hair follicle.

Now let's see here. Since keratin is made of proteins and is hydroscopic ( absorbs/equalizes with water) and this article proves that not only did it prevent massive amounts of proteins from being lost but it inhibits heat from dehydrating the hair (beta keratin) as well.

Can i not say that Evco prevents the destruction of proteins and inhibits the dehydrating ability of heat?

If there is a strong corralation between evco and inhibition of moisture and protein loss can I not apply that here to tortoises and there remarkably similar components of beta and alpha keratin?

I mean if the structure of beta keratin is composed of proteins and heat damages and promotes loss of proteins and moisture in beta keratin as show in the article, can I not say that this oil prevents the destruction of proteins in the beta keratin of the shell of a tortoise because of "unfiltered" IR (heat) ?

"unfiltered" IR hits tortoise day in and day out , first robs of much needed moisture, then over time IR destroys and inhibuts precious proteins needed for healthy development and growth of the keratin...

do I make sense with all this?
 
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