Can't find a suitable substrate

[lauraespinosa01]

Hi all,

I have been trying for over a year now to figure out just the right substrate, but nothing I try ends up working. I have a redfoot and a yellowfoot, one of which is only a few months old. I also have live plants directly in the substrate. I live in Bolivia and my torts are natives, so you'd think this would be easy!

My first substrate was just plain topsoil, but it tended to stay way too wet after watering plants.

Next I tried orchid bark over the soil, but my tortoises would still burrow down into the soil and I felt it was too wet for them to spend most of their time in. Also, a vet told me the orchid bark was too abrasive and too hard for them to walk in.

Then I tried putting the plants in buried pots to contain the water, filling in around them with topsoil, and covering with Eco Earth coconut coir. At first I thought this worked great, but the coconut coir gets extremely dry and dusty. It is starting to irritate their eyes and noses. Even with a mini humidifier going in the enclosure, the coconut coir dries within about 10 minutes of wetting it.

I would love to try cypress mulch, but it is not available at all in Bolivia. I tried to bring some back on my last trip to the USA but it was confiscated in customs.

I have also tried spaghnum moss in the hides but felt it was usually either too wet (after watering plants) or dry and dusty.

What else could I try??

My only idea at the moment is to try mixing everything I have available - top soil, coconut coir, orchid bark, pieces of coconut husk, and spaghnum moss - all together in an attempt to imitate a forest floor. Has anyone tried this? Any suggestions?

Both my torts LOVE to burrow so that's a must. And the redfoot used to love finding earthworms in her topsoil so it'd be nice to have those again

Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions!

 

[ZEROPILOT]

I've used Orchid bark UNDER garden soil for years.
The orchid bark absorbs the water and the top layer stays dry.
(Pour water into the corners)
I wouldn't attempt to keep a docile Redfoot in with a more aggressive Yellowfoot, though.

 

[christinaland128]

Sounds like you have a good mix. I use soil then on top, a mix of coir and ZooMed forest floor. Can you order the ZooMed forest floor from Amazon?

If you are finding your coir is dusty then you need to increase humidity. You can direct the humidity from your humidifier into your enclosure by sawing off the top and inserting some vinyl tubing. I made my own and it works wonderfully.....

You won't hold good humidity however unless you cover your enclosure somehow. Closed chambers hold in heat and humidity beautifully.

Good luck my friend.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

A lot of us also use a mostly or completely enclosed enclosure known collectively as a "closed chamber".
With a closed system humidity and heat become simple to regulate. Most of us no longer require an additional source of humidity.
Are you able to keep them outside when the weather is suitable?
That would be best.
Mine all live outdoors year round.

 

[lauraespinosa01]

Thanks for both your responses. I was just reading about using orchid bark under soil and thinking it sounded like a good idea. Maybe I could do a layer of orchid bark followed by soil mixed with the other things. And I guess I'd put the plants directly in the soil since their water would be draining into the orchid bark below anyway.

I've thought about closing the enclosure but heard that lack of airflow can make them sick. Is this not a problem or how do people deal with it? The climate is quite humid here (they are in their native climate), so I tend not to worry too much about it. They do have a mini humidifier and I mist a few times a day with a spray bottle.

Unfortunately I live in an apartment and have nowhere to keep them outside, but they are still small. By the time they are bigger I hope to have moved to a house with a yard.

I was concerned about keeping a yellowfoot and redfoot together, but they get along perfectly so far. The redfoot is much bigger and the yellowfoot will playfully crawl over her and follow her around. The redfoot acts indifferent but whenever the other is not in their enclosure I'll see her craning her neck and looking in all the nooks and crannies as if looking for her "little sister" I do keep a close eye on them though and make sure they both have their own hides to retreat to.

Thanks again!

 

[lauraespinosa01]

Sounds like you have a good mix. I use soil then on top, a mix of coir and ZooMed forest floor. Can you order the ZooMed forest floor from Amazon?

If you are finding your coir is dusty then you need to increase humidity. You can direct the humidity from your humidifier into your enclosure by sawing off the top and inserting some vinyl tubing. I made my own and it works wonderfully.....View attachment 188998View attachment 188999

You won't hold good humidity however unless you cover your enclosure somehow. Closed chambers hold in heat and humidity beautifully.View attachment 189000

Good luck my friend.

Your enclosure looks beautiful, by the way!

 

[Anyfoot]

Hi all,

I have been trying for over a year now to figure out just the right substrate, but nothing I try ends up working. I have a redfoot and a yellowfoot, one of which is only a few months old. I also have live plants directly in the substrate. I live in Bolivia and my torts are natives, so you'd think this would be easy!

My first substrate was just plain topsoil, but it tended to stay way too wet after watering plants.

Next I tried orchid bark over the soil, but my tortoises would still burrow down into the soil and I felt it was too wet for them to spend most of their time in. Also, a vet told me the orchid bark was too abrasive and too hard for them to walk in.

Then I tried putting the plants in buried pots to contain the water, filling in around them with topsoil, and covering with Eco Earth coconut coir. At first I thought this worked great, but the coconut coir gets extremely dry and dusty. It is starting to irritate their eyes and noses. Even with a mini humidifier going in the enclosure, the coconut coir dries within about 10 minutes of wetting it.

I would love to try cypress mulch, but it is not available at all in Bolivia. I tried to bring some back on my last trip to the USA but it was confiscated in customs.

I have also tried spaghnum moss in the hides but felt it was usually either too wet (after watering plants) or dry and dusty.

What else could I try??

My only idea at the moment is to try mixing everything I have available - top soil, coconut coir, orchid bark, pieces of coconut husk, and spaghnum moss - all together in an attempt to imitate a forest floor. Has anyone tried this? Any suggestions?

Both my torts LOVE to burrow so that's a must. And the redfoot used to love finding earthworms in her topsoil so it'd be nice to have those again

Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions!

Hi there. Why don't you try 50/50 coir and top soil. With orchid bark as a top surface. You wont get plants to grow in coir because there's no nutrition in it. Can we see your set up please.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

That behavior is not playful.
Keep an eye on them.
Yellowfoot bite intruders.
They dislike company and see any other tortoise as competition.
I know it's easy to place human emotions on our pets. But tortoises don't make friends.
Boy, I spent so much time dealing with bullying untill I made a gigantic outdoor pen with one male and three females. Even then I had to ad and remove individuals untill I found a harmonious group.
I wish I'd known about the problem before I had to deal with it my self.
And on top of that. Two species should not generally be kept together.
Redfoot and Yellowfoot are not the same tortoises just with different colors.
You live in Bolivia and I assume these are local raised or caught?
I'm curious to know how you do.
If anyone can pull this off, it'll be you.
Please keep us advised and good luck.

 

[lauraespinosa01]

Hi there. Why don't you try 50/50 coir and top soil. With orchid bark as a top surface. You wont get plants to grow in coir because there's no nutrition in it. Can we see your set up please.

 

[lauraespinosa01]

That behavior is not playful.
Keep an eye on them.
Yellowfoot bite intruders.
They dislike company and see any other tortoise as competition.
I know it's easy to place human emotions on our pets. But tortoises don't make friends.
Boy, I spent so much time dealing with bullying untill I made a gigantic outdoor pen with one male and three females. Even then I had to ad and remove individuals untill I found a harmonious group.
I wish I'd known about the problem before I had to deal with it my self.
And on top of that. Two species should not generally be kept together.
Redfoot and Yellowfoot are not the same tortoises just with different colors.
You live in Bolivia and I assume these are local raised or caught?
I'm curious to know how you do.
If anyone can pull this off, it'll be you.
Please keep us advised and good luck.

Thanks for sharing your experience. When I first added the yellowfoot I was worried about it, but so far there hasn't even been a hint of a problem. I do watch closely. I had another post on details of how I got them, probably easier to give you the link then type it all here http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/hello-from-bolivia.144566/

 

[Anyfoot]

View attachment 189016 View attachment 189017

You need to make this enclosure a closed system and very humid, it's too dry. That uvb strip light is doing nothing. It needs to be at about 10" from your torts and only half the size of your enclosure.

 

[lauraespinosa01]

You need to make this enclosure a closed system and very humid, it's too dry. That uvb strip light is doing nothing. It needs to be at about 10" from your torts and only half the size of your enclosure.

It's a ReptiSun 10.0 - I followed the placement instructions exactly, I think the box said 18 inches from the ground or something like that. Do people follow different guidelines for tortoises or something?

 

[Anyfoot]

It's a ReptiSun 10.0 - I followed the placement instructions exactly, I think the box said 18 inches from the ground or something like that. Do people follow different guidelines for tortoises or something?

Different instructions for different manufacturers, if you have done what they recommend on the box then that's good. My apologies, that looks very high up.

 

[Lu_x85]

I would echo what has already been said about creating a drainage layer. I use orchid bark (which is available in different grades, I've finally sourced a finer one made by Komodo) which is placed under biolife forest (a substrate that is a mixture of sterile soil, moss and orchid bark). I find this works well for holding humidity and also allows me to grow live plants. My RF does dig down but as I've created varying depths to allow for this there are no problems. I also never have areas of standing water.

How are you adding water to your system? I use a hand sprayer for soaking my RF and also have a rain system set up to go off every 4 hours if the humidity is below 80%. I would suggest closing your system and adding a hygrometer to monitor humidity- digital hygrometers are more accurate too.

 

[Tom]

I find orchid bark to be the best for this sort of thing. The lower layers can be damp to add humidity, while the upper layers can remain dry-ish. Use a good 10cm layer. Then, just keep your plants in pots with their soil.

About the UV tubes: The only way to mount them at the right height is with a UV meter. The manufacturers suggested height is usually a good starting point, but there is no substitute for actually measuring UV output in your own enclosure because there are a lot of variables. Sort of like using a thermometer to know the temperatures instead of guessing. This is the only one I know of worth buying:
https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html

 

[lauraespinosa01]

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions and advice!

I'll get more orchid bark soon and re-do the substrate layers. And my husband is working on designing a lid to close in the enclosure. I must admit something feels a little "off" about having to enclose them completely and create a "fake" climate within their glass walls when we are living in their native habitat. I mean, it is EXTREMELY hot and humid here! The bubbling/peeling paint in our year-old apartment can attest to the humidity. As can the constant battle to get towels to dry, etc. Any wild tortoises are thriving in the exact same climate as my tortoises are living in. That said, perhaps something about being 'inside' is different than 'outside' (though no a/c or insulation or anything), and of course I don't want to jeopardize their well-being so I'll go ahead with the closed chambers and be sure to keep a close eye on temps and humidity once they are closed in. Can't wait to move to a house with a yard and keep them outside!

Thanks again!

 

[Yvonne G]

Maybe so, however, indoors climate is quite different from the actual outdoor space where the tortoises live in nature. All the plants and growing things, dirt, dew, etc. make it much more humid outside for tortoises in nature than indoors and under drying lights.

 

[Travis]

I would echo what has already been said about creating a drainage layer. I use orchid bark (which is available in different grades, I've finally sourced a finer one made by Komodo) which is placed under biolife forest (a substrate that is a mixture of sterile soil, moss and orchid bark). I find this works well for holding humidity and also allows me to grow live plants. My RF does dig down but as I've created varying depths to allow for this there are no problems. I also never have areas of standing water.

How are you adding water to your system? I use a hand sprayer for soaking my RF and also have a rain system set up to go off every 4 hours if the humidity is below 80%. I would suggest closing your system and adding a hygrometer to monitor humidity- digital hygrometers are more accurate too.

Do you have any pictures of your enclosure? That rain system seems very interesting and i'd love to see it.

 

[lauraespinosa01]

Update: We finished the cover for their enclosure:



It wasn't finished and installed until after sundown yesterday, and the temp stayed at 90F all night with the CHEs turned off, so I'm slightly concerned about how hot it'll get in there this afternoon! I may have to keep the front flap open more often than not. We'll replace the plastic flap with plexiglass panels eventually, this was the quickest way to get started.

I haven't added any orchid bark under the substrate yet, but before we made the cover I dumped quite a lot of water in and it seemed to make all the difference. The coir has not dried out and the soil has not turned to mud. I guess I was just being too conservative with the amount of water I sprayed on the coir for fear of creating mud like in the past. But the mix of topsoil and coco coir seems to create a perfect balance. Humidity was consistently at 80% prior to the cover being added.

 

[Lu_x85]

Looking good!
You can set up a system where your heat lamps turn off if an optimum temp is reached and click back on again if they need to heat again. You'll need a thermostat to monitor this. I have a temperature gradient across my enclosure too which is advised. I also have 3 different thermostats monitoring temp under the heat lamp and 2 more thermostats- one in his sleeping area and one down the cooler end. Might be worth looking into this if you're concerned it will get too hot.

How high up is your uvb lamp? Also are you measuring temp at tortoise level?