Babcocki vs. Pardalis

rmn813

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What are the main differences in appearance and disposition between Babcocki and Pardalis?
 

samkerns1

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This photo sums up the entirety of my Leo experience. It shows my pb and pp side by side. They both hatched last year, and I've had them since August.

The pp is much less likely to duck into her shell when approached or handled.

Both will readily eat Mazuri from my hand or approach the food dish even with me standing above. IMG_20190315_070750.jpeg
 

Tom

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This photo sums up the entirety of my Leo experience. It shows my pb and pp side by side. They both hatched last year, and I've had them since August.

The pp is much less likely to duck into her shell when approached or handled.

Both will readily eat Mazuri from my hand or approach the food dish even with me standing above. View attachment 267331
You pb is a mix, as so many are. This really muddies the waters, so to speak.
 

Tom

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What are the main differences in appearance and disposition between Babcocki and Pardalis?
Have you done a search on this topic? In years past we've had multiple threads on this topic.

First, there is no longer any subspecific designation.

Second, here in the US we have "regular" leopards which can be from many parts of the range, and are most frequently a genetic mix from multiple parts of the range. Then we have the South African leopards which can all be traced back to one man who bought 10 fresh imports in 1990 and never mixed them any other leopards.

The primary differences in them are size, shape, color, markings, personality, and diet. SA leopards get bigger, have a lower dome, are more yellowish as babies, have freckled skin as babies and slightly different carapace markings as they grow, have a much more outgoing and unafraid personality, and they eat grass like a sulcata. Most people have regular leopards which are mostly mixes, and so they see many of these traits in their tortoises, and I believe this is the primary reason for all the arguing and differences of opinion on this tortoises.
 

samkerns1

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You pb is a mix, as so many are. This really muddies the waters, so to speak.
Are there specific characteristics you see or is it an overall appearance that's different?

I was given no guarantee of its lineage when I obtained it and assumed it would be unlikely to have pp blood.
 

Tom

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Are there specific characteristics you see or is it an overall appearance that's different?

I was given no guarantee of its lineage when I obtained it and assumed it would be unlikely to have pp blood.
The skin freckles and scute patterns say: "Mix!" Most "regular" leopards sold here in the US are a mix of genetics from multiple locations.

There are at least 6 people right here on this forum that are knowingly and intentionally making SA mixes. It is a pretty typical practice out in the world to go ahead and put leopards with other leopards. I don't like it, but nothing I can do about it.
 

diamondbp

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Are there specific characteristics you see or is it an overall appearance that's different?

I was given no guarantee of its lineage when I obtained it and assumed it would be unlikely to have pp blood.
You pb is a mix, as so many are. This really muddies the waters, so to speak.
How can you assert the pb is a mix if you don't know it's lineage? If you mean a mix of various pb genetics from various pb locals then that's highly likely. I just don't understand the necessity to assert that ?

You might want to go look at pictures of wild leopards from their various regions. Freckles occur in the vast majority of the areas. The density and size of the freckles vary, but it's far more common in the various wild locals than what we in the US assume.
 

Tom

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How can you assert the pb is a mix if you don't know it's lineage? If you mean a mix of various pb genetics from various pb locals then that's highly likely. I just don't understand the necessity to assert that ?

You might want to go look at pictures of wild leopards from their various regions. Freckles occur in the vast majority of the areas. The density and size of the freckles vary, but it's far more common in the various wild locals than what we in the US assume.
Have you ever seen pure pb? Ones of known lineage? I have. Three types. They don't look like the one in the pic here. The one in the picture here looks like the typical pb pp mixes that we see so many of. Like the mixes out of friend's tortoises that I've hatched myself.

I asserted it because samkerns1 thinks he/she has a pb, and he/she doesn't. (Sorry samkerns1. I don't know your gender.) I'm correcting misinformation when I see it, just like I always do.
 

rmn813

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This photo sums up the entirety of my Leo experience. It shows my pb and pp side by side. They both hatched last year, and I've had them since August.

The pp is much less likely to duck into her shell when approached or handled.

Both will readily eat Mazuri from my hand or approach the food dish even with me standing above. View attachment 267331
Thanks @samkerns1. The photo comparison really nails it.
 

rmn813

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The skin freckles and scute patterns say: "Mix!" Most "regular" leopards sold here in the US are a mix of genetics from multiple locations.

There are at least 6 people right here on this forum that are knowingly and intentionally making SA mixes. It is a pretty typical practice out in the world to go ahead and put leopards with other leopards. I don't like it, but nothing I can do about it.

Tom, if you think mixed breeding is bad with Leopards, you should spend some time with the Red Foot people. It is unfortunate that so many don't see the importance of pure locale breeding.

Do PBs typically retain more dark coloration on their carapace vs. SA?

Just out of curiosity...who was the 1990 importer of SAs?
 

diamondbp

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Have you ever seen pure pb? Ones of known lineage? I have. Three types. They don't look like the one in the pic here. The one in the picture here looks like the typical pb pp mixes that we see so many of. Like the mixes out of friend's tortoises that I've hatched myself.

I asserted it because samkerns1 thinks he/she has a pb, and he/she doesn't. (Sorry samkerns1. I don't know your gender.) I'm correcting misinformation when I see it, just like I always do.

I have thousands of pictures saved from various wild locals. I can promise you I’ve looked at more high def photos of wild leopards of all stages of life than likely anyone else in this forum. I semi obsess over it.

I just think it’s a far stretch to see one photo from a not so good angle, and make that precise of an assertion. You seem to have a tendency to do things of that nature.
 
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