Pardalis pardalis vs pardalis babcocki

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luke

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squamata said:
luke said:
squamata said:
you"re a reall squirmy guy arent you

well seeing how you have chosen too enter a friendly debate between friends on a sarcastic note,and have chosen too not add a thought of your own,you simply chose too echo brett's response,who I assure you needs no help.your post really warrants no response from me,but why don't you try your little soda experiment and when you find that if both volumes are the same diameter containing the same liquid all other parameters are the same barring one is taller then the other,they will both reach the same temp at the same time.let us know

Yes I am quite squirmy.

I didnt mean to bud into somones friendly "debate", I just noticed that the "arguments" you were making were bogus, I thoght I'd throw in my two cents for all the readers who may not recognize that your claims were false. I wasnt trying to condecend you or imply that Bret needed my help in handling you. I just wanted to second his position and offer a simple analogy. I meant no offense.

luke your simple analogy suggests that if you took 5 or more cans of soda and stacked some vertically next too a single can the stacked ones would some how cange temperature at a different rate,is that not bogus and false?

I should clarify my statmet. I didnt want to get too technical, and I still don't. When I said one can was three feet tall I meant that It was three feet tall but still had the same proportions as the smaller can.

As far as this discussion goes that doesnt really mater. Both the taller can and the stacked can configurations will lose temperature slower then the single can. The three foot can with the same proportions as the small can will loose temp at an even slower rate then the other cans.

No, it is not bogus or false.

Its not a mater of sudjesting this or asuming that. Its simple physics. But as far as ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL tort cold hardyness is concerend this really doesnt matter.
 

John

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luke said:
squamata said:
luke said:
squamata said:
you"re a reall squirmy guy arent you

well seeing how you have chosen too enter a friendly debate between friends on a sarcastic note,and have chosen too not add a thought of your own,you simply chose too echo brett's response,who I assure you needs no help.your post really warrants no response from me,but why don't you try your little soda experiment and when you find that if both volumes are the same diameter containing the same liquid all other parameters are the same barring one is taller then the other,they will both reach the same temp at the same time.let us know

Yes I am quite squirmy.

I didnt mean to bud into somones friendly "debate", I just noticed that the "arguments" you were making were bogus, I thoght I'd throw in my two cents for all the readers who may not recognize that your claims were false. I wasnt trying to condecend you or imply that Bret needed my help in handling you. I just wanted to second his position and offer a simple analogy. I meant no offense.

luke your simple analogy suggests that if you took 5 or more cans of soda and stacked some vertically next too a single can the stacked ones would some how cange temperature at a different rate,is that not bogus and false?

I should clarify my statmet. I didnt want to get too technical, and I still don't. When I said one can was three feet tall I meant that It was three feet tall but still had the same proportions as the smaller can.

As far as this discussion goes that doesnt really mater. Both the taller can and the stacked can configurations will lose temperature slower then the single can. The three foot can with the same proportions as the small can will loose temp at an even slower rate then the other cans.

No, it is not bogus or false.

Its not a mater of sudjesting this or asuming that. Its simple physics. But like I said as far as ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL tort cold hardyness is concerend this really doesnt matter.

luke,when you increase the height of the cylinder but do not change the diameter in either direction the surface area in which heat transfer takes place remains. the volume too surface area equals itself out and the two cylinders change temp at the same rate.if the larger cylinder was of greater diameter then things would not be the same.
 

onarock

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Do you know if the S.A. Babcocks look the same as the Tanzania ones? Or is there noticible behavior differences like more burrowing?

Luke thats a good question and I'm glad you asked. Everything that I have read suggest that the gpp found here in the hobby are more of a representation of a specific group of groups of gpp. Like gpb they can vary in size, shape and coloration. The problem with the info passed on here, other sites and the hobby is that the description of of gpp doesnt really define the sub.sp as a whole meaning it doesnt include other clades or groups of gpp. As far as weather they look the same, I cant really answer that... I have never seen them and recent gene studies are far too complex and would take up the next hour of my life typing to try and explain. It has been written that gpp are known to burrow and gpb for the most part are not. Weather or not the gpb in S.A. burrow more... I cant find any info that suggest they do.
 

luke

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It wouldnt suprise me either way if SA Babcocks burrowed more or not. I dont think it ureasonable for there to be a group of babcocks able to adapt and establish themselfs in Cooler climates using means other than burowing. All you need is a few clever torts to establish themselfs and over time you could have youself a new subspecies. Its all very interesing. I still need to read more.
 

Neal

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Tom said:
Isn't this what happens in the wild in tropical vs. temperate areas? I don't think a babcocki would fare to well if it were dropped off on the tip of the Southern Cape with all the pp that live out their lives and do fine down there.

Not in the sense I am talking about. Again, what I think of when I read "cold hardiness" is - the temperature that is going to KILL the tortoise. Temperature preference seems to be more accurate when describing pardalis being active in cooler temperatures as apposed to Babcocki's...totally different than "cold hardiness". And when talking about removing a wild tortoise from it's native range and placing it into a completley different habitat and climate, of course the tortoise is going to struggle compared to the native tortoise, no more than a pardalis would if it were moved to a babcocki range I would imagine.

However, as we all have experience with here on the forum, tortoises do adapt to their surroundings. I agree that areas like Southern California are similar to South Africa, and a SA tortoise like Gpp would probably do better (as in better than a different climate, not better than Gpb) there than other climates. But, I personally know of two breeders of Gpb in Southern California that do very well, and know of dozens of others in cool climates that also aparently do well. Likewise, I have heard of one, possibly two, breeders of Gpp in Florida and one in Hawaii that do quite well in those coniditions which are different than SA, as far as typical climate goes.

As I stated before, my whole problem with the "cold hardiness" claim is that I interpret it as one type of tortoise outliving another when exposed to X temperature. I have yet to see anything that even comes close to defining this and until shown otherwise I will continue to say that it is not based on anything besides speculation.

And, as far as the talk at the TTPG...it's been awhile and I wasn't particularly tuned into that talk so if I am wrong please correct me. But, I believe he suggested that climates like Southern California are more friendly to the bowsprit tortoises than say the desert climate here in AZ. As in, I don't think he suggested those climates because the Bowsprit tortoise would do BETTER than another type of tortoise, rather I think he implied that because it's a rare species, the best chance for a breeding program would be in those types of climates.

luke said:
It wouldnt suprise me either way if SA Babcocks burrowed more or not. I dont think it ureasonable for there to be a group of babcocks able to adapt and establish themselfs in Cooler climates using means other than burowing. All you need is a few clever torts to establish themselfs and over time you could have youself a new subspecies. Its all very interesing. I still need to read more.

My short experience with "SA Babcocks" (Geochelone Pardalis Pardalis), is that they do burrow more than babcocki...but thats only my observation from my herd.
 

TylerStewart

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onarock said:
If we take into consideration the size of the tortoises then one can make the argument that aldabras are more cold hardy than South African Leopards.

The problem with that idea is that I know for a fact (not saying how I know) that there are smaller tortoises (Testudo, mainly) that are for sure more hold hardy (can survive through a colder temperature) than a much larger leopard tortoise. It's definitely species related, and not just that one temperature will kill all tortoises, and this temperature will not. I've had Testudo fall asleep out in the open on nights so cold I would never admit to, and they didn't die. I would bet good money that even (very tropical) elongateds can survive a cold night that would kill a larger leopard. In all reality, using the words "leopard tortoise" and "cold hardy" in the same sentence just shouldn't be done. There's almost no tortoise that is as fragile to cold as leopards, in my experience.

In response to the quote above, I do think aldabras are more cold hardy than leopards if they were similar size. I think it's pretty obvious that a 40 pound tortoise would maintain a warmer temperature overnight than a smaller one (the back and fourth on that topic in this thread with 3 foot soda cans just confused me). I think almost anything is (in the 12 or so species I have) more cold hardy than a leopard, besides maybe stars. Again, I see no difference in babcocki and pardalis as far as cold hardiness, and I really, really doubt there is one.
 

TylerStewart

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onarock said:
If we take into consideration the size of the tortoises then one can make the argument that aldabras are more cold hardy than South African Leopards.

The problem with that idea is that I know for a fact (not saying how I know) that there are smaller tortoises (Testudo, mainly) that are for sure more hold hardy (can survive through a colder temperature) than a much larger leopard tortoise. It's definitely species related, and not just that one temperature will kill all tortoises, and this temperature will not. I've had Testudo fall asleep out in the open on nights so cold I would never admit to, and they didn't die. I would bet good money that even (very tropical) elongateds can survive a cold night that would kill a larger leopard. In all reality, using the words "leopard tortoise" and "cold hardy" in the same sentence just shouldn't be done. There's almost no tortoise that is as fragile to cold as leopards, in my experience.

In response to the quote above, I do think aldabras are more cold hardy than leopards if they were similar size. I think it's pretty obvious that a 40 pound tortoise would maintain a warmer temperature overnight than a smaller one (the back and fourth on that topic in this thread with 3 foot soda cans just confused me). I think almost anything is (in the 12 or so species I have) more cold hardy than a leopard, besides maybe stars. Again, I see no difference in babcocki and pardalis as far as cold hardiness, and I really, really doubt there is one.
 

TylerStewart

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onarock said:
If we take into consideration the size of the tortoises then one can make the argument that aldabras are more cold hardy than South African Leopards.

The problem with that idea is that I know for a fact (not saying how I know) that there are smaller tortoises (Testudo, mainly) that are for sure more hold hardy (can survive through a colder temperature) than a much larger leopard tortoise. It's definitely species related, and not just that one temperature will kill all tortoises, and this temperature will not. I've had Testudo fall asleep out in the open on nights so cold I would never admit to, and they didn't die. I would bet good money that even (very tropical) elongateds can survive a cold night that would kill a larger leopard. In all reality, using the words "leopard tortoise" and "cold hardy" in the same sentence just shouldn't be done. There's almost no tortoise that is as fragile to cold as leopards, in my experience.

In response to the quote above, I do think aldabras are more cold hardy than leopards if they were similar size. I think it's pretty obvious that a 40 pound tortoise would maintain a warmer temperature overnight than a smaller one (the back and fourth on that topic in this thread with 3 foot soda cans just confused me). I think almost anything is (in the 12 or so species I have) more cold hardy than a leopard, besides maybe stars. Again, I see no difference in babcocki and pardalis as far as cold hardiness, and I really, really doubt there is one.
 

John

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My short experience with "SA Babcocks" (Geochelone Pardalis Pardalis), is that they do burrow more than babcocki...but thats only my observation from my herd.

that's interesting neal,the one hybrid(as its been labled by the pet trade)does not burrow I've had him on two different substrates.I have also noted that all five of my leopards tend too dig a shallow hole in the dirt I currently use,while when on cypress mulch they did not.

I should clarify my statmet. I didnt want to get too technical, and I still don't. When I said one can was three feet tall I meant that It was three feet tall but still had the same proportions as the smaller can.

As far as this discussion goes that doesnt really mater. Both the taller can and the stacked can configurations will lose temperature slower then the single can. The three foot can with the same proportions as the small can will loose temp at an even slower rate then the other cans.



Ya know luke you seem too have a strong interest in tortoises,and ask good questions.why you chose too start out this thread attacking me I don't know but at the end of the day your analogy is wrong,so lets just move on.
 

luke

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squamata said:
My short experience with "SA Babcocks" (Geochelone Pardalis Pardalis), is that they do burrow more than babcocki...but thats only my observation from my herd.

that's interesting neal,the one hybrid(as its been labled by the pet trade)does not burrow I've had him on two different substrates.I have also noted that all five of my leopards tend too dig a shallow hole in the dirt I currently use,while when on cypress mulch they did not.


Ya know luke you seem too have a strong interest in tortoises,and ask good questions.why you chose too start out this thread attacking me I don't know but at the end of the day your analogy is wrong,so lets just move on.




I only called you squirmy because you were being difficult When Balboa went thru the trouble of explining some physics to you. Like said before, I ment no offence and I wasnt attacking you. Just wanted to offer a simpler explination which every one here, including you, knows is true.

Your not sujesting a can the size of a drop of water will retain heat for a greater amount of time then a can that's two stories tall?
 

NavyDT

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i am in the market for another leopard, who can give me a good resource for quality GPP? im looking for a male.
Very Respectfully,
NavyDT
 

Tom

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NavyDT said:
i am in the market for another leopard, who can give me a good resource for quality GPP? im looking for a male.
Very Respectfully,
NavyDT

I just recently learned that adult male Gpp are scarce as hen's teeth and no one wants to sell any. Since they can't be positively sexed until they are older, it makes it hard to find a male. I've got 13 babies right now and I have no idea what sex any of them are.
 
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