Pardalis pardalis vs pardalis babcocki

[Robert]

I was hoping someone might be able to provide some info about the difference between the babcocki and pardalis sub-species.

I am interested in general taxonomy, but I am also interested in husbandry experiences.

A few specifics that I am interested in:
Which are found more in the US as kept pets?
Price difference between the two as hatchlings?
Any difference in personality?
Can a babcocki and a pardalis be housed in the same enclosure?
Similar/different dietary requirements?
Etc...

Thanks.

(I believe my Leia is pardalis babcocki, but any and all opinions on this issue are welcome)

Rob

 

[Mao Senpai]

As far as I'm concerned, there are some big differences between the two. Size is one of them, the P.Pardalis is bigger and more cold hardy I think?
The P.Pardalis is also more outgoing and have similar personalities to sulcata's. They also cost more and more rare to get. Well at least a true P.Pardalis. There are a bunch of hybrids out there I believe. Some cosmedic differences is the P.Pardalis usually has 2 or more dots per scute and have black specs around their heads. They have the same diets I think and I do believe they can be housed together with the babcocki's. These are just some stuff I've learned... someone who has more experience may have much more and better things to add.

 

[Tom]

Mao has it right. They are VERY different in appearance, size, hardiness, cold tolerance and personality.

1. Babcocks are by far the more numerous of the two. The pp are actually pretty rare. Especially REAL ones. Lots of people claim to have true pp when they really have hybrids.
2. pp are usually around twice the price of babcocks.
3. Huge difference in personality. pp are very similar to sulcatas. Babcocks are often referred to as "pretty rocks". Don't get me wrong, I love both subspecies, but they generally have VERY different personalities.
4. I don't recommend they be housed in the same enclosure. The pp are much larger and more boisterous. A babcock could easily be intimidated and stressed. They also come from very different areas and I worry about disease and/or parasites. Lastly adults should NEVER be housed together because we do NOT need any more hybrids.
5. Diet is pretty much the same for both.

 

[Neal]

Which are found more in the US as kept pets?

Babcocki by far. Pardalis are starting to pop up more frequently, I can imagine in a few years there may be a lot more.

Price difference between the two as hatchlings?

Price of babcocki's range from about $75 - $175 for hatchlings. Pardalis probably $300 + range.

Any difference in personality?

A lot of people on here say that Pardalis have similar personalities to a sulcata. I've seen few Pardalis, but I have seen plenty of sulcatas and have had a few. Some of my babcocki's were more friendly and had more personality than my sulcatas. As far as I'm concerned personality is unique to a tortoise not a tortoise species or sub species. There are boring babcocki's out there just like boring sulcatas or any other type of tortoise. I have some babcocki's that are active all throughout the day, and some that hide in a corner all day just like sulcatas I've seen.

One of my theories is that it has to do with the numbers of each type. As said above there are a lot more babcocki's owned and in the pet trade than pardalis. So I think it's fair to say that you are going to get a larger spectrum of personalities with the babcocki's than Pardalis. I'm willing to bet there are boring Pardalis just as much as babcocki. It's difficult though to quantify something like personality because it's different from person to person.

Can a babcocki and a pardalis be housed in the same enclosure?

As hatchlings yes. As adults I would not recomend it to avoid them breeding with each other. Pardalis and Babcocki have distinct traits and those should be preserved.

Similar/different dietary requirements?

Identical.

Etc...

I'm not sure where the Pardalis being more cold hardy than babcocki came from. As far as I'm concerned it's a debatable topic. I have adult and sub adult babcocki's that live outdoors all year long. They have a hide box, but they find there way out almost every day. I've seen them out in weather in the 50's without as much as a sniffle. I live in a dry climate, I think dry and cold would be ok for most tortoises (not for an extended period of time though). Wet and cold would be just as dangerous for any tortoise species. I've talked about this with Tyler Stewart and he said his babcocki's are the only tortoises that will come out when it's cold, other keepers have said similar.

 

[Mao Senpai]

My two babcocki's are completely different in personality lol, the bigger older one is the more shy type but is getting used to me. The small baby one... oh boy, it ain't affraid of nothing, it never goes back into his shell. It's all up in my face. Mine has faced some cold nights (55-60F) for a while before I was able to get in the heat emitter and they were fine. Although one night I did mist them being dumb I was, the big one got runny nose for like two days but cleared right up. I'm sure every situation is different but just stating what my experience was.

 

[onarock]

Not this again... Mao sorry to say that your perception of the two sub.sp is not correct. There are gpb that range the same areas as gpp in places where it's known to get cold and they live and reproduce all the same. People need to ask themselves if its just a MIRACLE that gpb are found in these areas. The answer is no. They range the same areas in South Africa. Why? Because they can. Gpb arent walking around, living and reproducing with chronic resperatory infections and they arent living just long enough to reproduce and then die. The whole cold tollerant thing is silly beyond belief. Furthermore, the whole gpp get larger than gpp is a total farce and equally as silly. Ive stated it before and I'll state it again. The largest leopard tortoise in Africa is gpb from Etheopia/Somalia not gpp. As far as the "pretty rocks" thing goes there is only one person in my 20+ years of keeping leopards that has ever referred to them as that. I will also add that the personality comparison between the two should only be made on a case by case basis. This whole mis-information bit is getting kinda weird.

 

[John]

lol round 2 i'll see ya's after work

 

[coreyc]

Oh no not again com on you two play nice

 

[DocNezzy]

Have I read this thread before? I believe so! Or one VERY similar! LOL

 

[Robert]

If anyone checks the dates, you'll see this is an old thread. I asked the question a few months ago when I first joined. This was not an attempt to start up another argument.

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

They both look nice!

 

[Yvonne G]

I think its important to know that this is a very hot subject within the realm of tortoise keepers. There are those, including very well-known names in the tortoise field, who feel that there is only one specie of leopard tortoise. And these folks are adamant in their thinking. The folks on the other side also include well-known names in the tortoise field. And they are just as adamant about there being two subspecies.

So, if the well-known and respected tortoise names of the world haven't been able to resolve this question, certainly we, as a group of hobby keepers, are not going to be able to solve this puzzle.

Because the forum is getting so big, most of the web searches you do on the subject come back to things we've talked about on the forum. I have a couple emails out to three tortoise guys that I know. When I hear back from them, I'll share their thoughts with you.

Let's keep it friendly and try to learn from our leopard tortoises. It may take us many years to get the facts, but I'm willing to try. I have 1.2 babcock and 0.0.2 pardalis. I'm 72. This gives me about, what, 25 to 50 years to solve the puzzle. Gives me a reason to stay alive, huh?

 

[yagyujubei]

I think its important to know that this is a very hot subject within the realm of tortoise keepers. There are those, including very well-known names in the tortoise field, who feel that there is only one specie of leopard tortoise. And these folks are adamant in their thinking. The folks on the other side also include well-known names in the tortoise field. And they are just as adamant about there being two subspecies.

So, if the well-known and respected tortoise names of the world haven't been able to resolve this question, certainly we, as a group of hobby keepers, are not going to be able to solve this puzzle.

Because the forum is getting so big, most of the web searches you do on the subject come back to things we've talked about on the forum. I have a couple emails out to three tortoise guys that I know. When I hear back from them, I'll share their thoughts with you.

Let's keep it friendly and try to learn from our leopard tortoises. It may take us many years to get the facts, but I'm willing to try. I have 1.2 babcock and 0.0.2 pardalis. I'm 72. This gives me about, what, 25 to 50 years to solve the puzzle. Gives me a reason to stay alive, huh?

Well, it can be argued all day long, but if the scientific community only recognizes one type, then that's all there is. If they recognise two subs, then there are two subs. Those that disagree, need to present their papers to the proper authority that determines these things, What's the difference if gpp is a sub species or a variety? I think all can agree that they have enough differences to qualify as a separate variety. Is Pluto a planet or not? It used to be , but now it isn't.

 

[Yvonne G]

I don't know who Enric Pamries is, but he wrote this:

http://www.infotortuga.com/eng_stigmochelys_pardalis.htm

I'd like to think that they are two sub-species.

My tortoise partner, William Espenshade, says that the tortoises from South Africa are more cold hardy because they live there, not because they're a sub species. He likened it to a spotted turtle living in Florida as opposed to the same species of spotted turtle living up near Canada. One will hibernate and one won't. Not different sub species, just due to where they happen to live.

I have a friend living south of San Diego. Her Russian tortoises, living outside, never hibernate. Does that mean they are a different sub species?

However, in my way of thinking, the two leopards look so different. Its very easy to tell the difference between the two as hatchlings. And why do the SA's grow bigger?

We're not going to be able to answer these questions, but I'm still going to call my group by their sub species' names!

 

[Neal]

After talking this over with another forum member, he suggested and I agree that the whole cold hardiness thing is being mixed up with behavior in certain temperatures. To me cold hardiness means that a tortoise can SURVIVE in low temperatures. Being active in cold weather doesn't prove this. Pardalis shells are typically darker compared to Babcocki, so being outside when it is cooler makes more sense for them, this doesn't prove they are more or less suseptible to cold temperatures than a babcocki.

So, my problem is when pardalis are suggested as being the more cold hardy ones, it's deceiving in that it suggests they can SURVIVE colder temperatures than a babcocki...how in the world could this be proven without subjecting dozens of each sub species ( I call them sub species) to the temperature extremes and seeing who comes out on top? That being said it's logical to then say that babcocki will be more active in warmer temperatures than pardalis. Not that they can survive warmer temperatures. I hope that made sense.

 

[WrongFoot]

After talking this over with another forum member, he suggested and I agree that the whole cold hardiness thing is being mixed up with behavior in certain temperatures. To me cold hardiness means that a tortoise can SURVIVE in low temperatures. Being active in cold weather doesn't prove this. Pardalis shells are typically darker compared to Babcocki, so being outside when it is cooler makes more sense for them, this doesn't prove they are more or less suseptible to cold temperatures than a babcocki.

So, my problem is when pardalis are suggested as being the more cold hardy ones, it's deceiving in that it suggests they can SURVIVE colder temperatures than a babcocki...how in the world could this be proven without subjecting dozens of each sub species ( I call them sub species) to the temperature extremes and seeing who comes out on top? That being said it's logical to then say that babcocki will be more active in warmer temperatures than pardalis. Not that they can survive warmer temperatures. I hope that made sense.

Good point there,
for simple answer, we simply need to find a professional breeder and tell us about their experience with both tortoise's 'hardiness'.
anyone?

 

[Neal]

Good point there,
for simple answer, we simply need to find a professional breeder and tell us about their experience with both tortoise's 'hardiness'.
anyone?

I'm afraid that's not going to get us much as far as solid information goes. There are few true pardalis breeders out there, and as far as I know none participate here on the forum.

I among several others breed babcocki and have a bunch of young pardalis. My experience has been that pardalis are significantly more fragile and require a lot more attention than babcocki. I've talked to several others who's experience varies. As far as I know, no one exposes their tortoises to cold temperature extremes so I'm not sure how we could find out which one is actuall "cold hardy".

 

[Balboa]

I was talking about some of this kind of stuff with a forum member last night too. (I suspect the same forum member as Neal, LOL) We were talking Egyptians, but I think some of the same points apply, and it gives me some ideas.

Biologically, to the best of my knowledge, cold blooded animals are cold blooded animals, there aren't major internal differences on the cellular level between species that will allow for a major difference in temperature tolerance. There can be some anatomical differences that count though, such as blubber and size. I forget the exact term, but larger tortoise can employ something like "gigathermy" wherein they can maintain a higher core temp than ambient via activity and heat inertia. This implies that a larger pardalis will in fact be more "cold tolerant" than a typically smaller babcocki.

The biggest differences in tortoises comes through behavior differences that allow them to survive in different conditions, warmer, cooler, wetter or drier. Some behaviors are instinctive, but many more can be learned, and as torts do have problem solving ability, any tort can likely adapt to changing conditions (its drastic changes that may kill them before they adapt).

 

[onarock]

I think it implies that cold tollerance between the 2 subs only applies to adults. So, if I'm reading you post correctly your stating that they have the same cold tollerance untill gpp reach 40lbs and then somehow become even more cold tollerant? This still does'nt prove that gpp are more cold tollerant.

Biologically, to the best of my knowledge, cold blooded animals are cold blooded animals, there aren't major internal differences on the cellular level between species that will allow for a major difference in temperature tolerance. There can be some anatomical differences that count though, such as blubber and size. I forget the exact term, but larger tortoise can employ something like "gigathermy" wherein they can maintain a higher core temp than ambient via activity and heat inertia. This implies that a larger pardalis will in fact be more "cold tolerant" than a typically smaller babcocki.

 

[Balboa]

Well no it doesn't prove didly squat

but, it does stand to reason that a larger tortoise WILL be more cold tolerant than a smaller one. SOOOO if a 20 year old Gpp can be expected to be larger than a 20 year old Gpb AND its "smart" enough to to keep moving in order to generate some heat and keep foraging rather than just lay in a cold spot I'd consider it more cold tolerant.

I think it implies that cold tollerance between the 2 subs only applies to adults. So, if I'm reading you post correctly your stating that they have the same cold tollerance untill gpp reach 40lbs and then somehow become even more cold tollerant? This still does'nt prove that gpp are more cold tollerant.

Biologically, to the best of my knowledge, cold blooded animals are cold blooded animals, there aren't major internal differences on the cellular level between species that will allow for a major difference in temperature tolerance. There can be some anatomical differences that count though, such as blubber and size. I forget the exact term, but larger tortoise can employ something like "gigathermy" wherein they can maintain a higher core temp than ambient via activity and heat inertia. This implies that a larger pardalis will in fact be more "cold tolerant" than a typically smaller babcocki.