the problem lies there.....i dont believe they know how to breed. i wish i could have taken a picture for you. but the place is a 45 min drive away for me and the thought of going back there makes my tummy hurt.
Meg90 said:I have read tons of horror stories here, most of them about sulcata. I have also seen about 85% of the newbies here, either COME with a sick baby sully that they don't know how to care for, or come on here to ask about getting one. They are the easiest tortoise species to find. They seem more exotic because of the size they will reach. They ARE the cheapest CB tort you can come by. And MAN who doesn't love a big tortoise? It can like, walk around your kitchen when its too big for an aquarium, and I heard, like, the fridge will keep it warm!
I see this mentality EVERY time I tell people I have tortoises.
I would love to see the better side of this adebate. But there are what, three people here that take proper care of their adult Sulcata? The rest just have wee babies. Oh, and I would love to see some sulcata with owners not of this forum, that are not riddled with MBD and suffering from severe neglect.
This is not a way that anyone would use or could use to breed sulcatas. It was either a temporary home for them, or they're not producing anything, one or the other. If you were intentionally trying not to get your tortoises to breed, this would pretty much be what it would take to accomplish that.11 adult sulcatas in a wooden cage about the size of a large bookcase, they were all scrunched together no room to move. the sign read NOT FOR SALE. they were for breeding only.
dmmj said:I personally like ed, do I always agree with everything he says? no of course not but i know him from a couple of other turtle groups and I think he gets a bad rap sometimes.
Stephanie Logan said:As far as the original topic of this thread is concerned, I am not "pro" or "anti" Sulcata. I am a novice to the tortoise world, and am generally content to read the opinions and debate of the many experts--including EJ--who post here.
What I object to is a person who seeks to undermine the debate, rather than contribute to the discussion.
"you wanna talk about upset.....i went to a local petstore to see if they had some seed for sale and when i get to the bak of the store i find 11 adult sulcatas in a wooden cage about the size of a large bookcase, they were all scrunched together no room to move. the sign read NOT FOR SALE. they were for breeding only. i felt so bad for these guys. just makes me wanna hurl. the person in the store said the owner was the (info god on sulcatas) all of them had bone problems. there backs were all sunken in
I was also asking for info on the beautiful torts and the person in the store gave me all bad info. needless to say i will never buy anything from (the store beside old toys r us on morse rd in columbus ohio"
All I read here is that the poster was "upset" at the physical condition and too-small enclosure of the Sulcatas she saw in the back of her local pet store. The only salient facts are 1) 11 adult Sulcatas in a wooden cage the size of a bookcase" and 2)"their backs were all sunken in".
Ed accuses, "There's a huge chunk of information missing from this story", then refuses to illuminate that "chunk" for the rest of us, instead choosing to obfuscate the issue by claiming,"That's not for me to comment because I wasn't there and the individual making the observation doesn't seem to have all the facts and also seems to be taking the observation out of context" and then when asked to explain this accusation (yes, Ed, you are accusing the original poster of not having "all the facts" and "taking the observation out of context"), continues to dissemble by blithely excusing himself from the discussion with "The 'facts' I'm missing are a photo of the situation and why those animals are in that situation. Pretty simple."
Well, gee. That really clarifies EJ's position. Yep, as clear as mud!
In my opinion, if you are going to respond in such a condescending, dismissive tone, you OWE it to those of us who are trying to understand your criticism to explain yourself. In my opinion, you should cease this "stab and run" tactic. Your inability to clarify your viewpoints disqualifies you from criticising others. If you can't answer a simple question, don't participate. Worse, if you make a mean-spirited and unfounded accusation, either explain your position or apologize and retract your charge. Obviously you can choose to continue pretending to be only one who truly gets it, accusing others of JUDGMENTALism, and implying that most of us are naive and ignorant. Just know that you are not deceiving anyone so much as yourself.
dmmj said:I personally like ed, do I always agree with everything he says? no of course not but i know him from a couple of other turtle groups and I think he gets a bad rap sometimes. I think he was mainly talking about the turtles being kept at the pet store, were they there only temporary thus the breeding only sign so people would not inquire about them? I don't know since all the information is not there we only have one person's observation, if the tortoises were being kept like that all the time and not in transit somewhere, then yes that would be horrible conditions to be ketp in. Was the tortoises rescues of some type that people took away from horrible conditions? Again not enough info in my viewpoint. I am not defending the tortoises being kept in those conditions. IMHO if you are breeeding sulc's just to make money without regards to the future type of care they recieve is wrong. I almost wish they were more exspensive like when they first came out so people would think twice or three times before buying a cute 40 dollar sulc. It is sad but the more money people spend on a tort or turtle the better care they usually give it. I see lots of RES being treated like throw away pets because, well you can always buy a baby for like 5$ in chinatown so what if it dies? it is sad. please forgive the long winded post.
oswego tort lover said:i don't think EJ undermined this debate at all in fact i understood what he was saying with out any problem . if at times a debate doesn't rise to a socratic dialoge well it happen's . no one's holding you back .. you sure come across as angry. you are the student yelling at the prof here , and i see no reason for it . i would urge you to apologize to him and return to the debate.
redreatta said:dmmj said:I personally like ed, do I always agree with everything he says? no of course not but i know him from a couple of other turtle groups and I think he gets a bad rap sometimes. I think he was mainly talking about the turtles being kept at the pet store, were they there only temporary thus the breeding only sign so people would not inquire about them? I don't know since all the information is not there we only have one person's observation, if the tortoises were being kept like that all the time and not in transit somewhere, then yes that would be horrible conditions to be ketp in. Was the tortoises rescues of some type that people took away from horrible conditions? Again not enough info in my viewpoint. I am not defending the tortoises being kept in those conditions. IMHO if you are breeeding sulc's just to make money without regards to the future type of care they recieve is wrong. I almost wish they were more exspensive like when they first came out so people would think twice or three times before buying a cute 40 dollar sulc. It is sad but the more money people spend on a tort or turtle the better care they usually give it. I see lots of RES being treated like throw away pets because, well you can always buy a baby for like 5$ in chinatown so what if it dies? it is sad. please forgive the long winded post.
ok to clear that one up. the person in the pet store said that the torts stay in that cage till it gets warm out again....being in ohio that will not be till may or june. the size of the pen was roughly 6 ft by 4 ft. 11 adult sulcatas (HUGE!) in this area did not seem to be very humane. there was no room for them to move about. there shells, more so toward the rear was sunken in very deep. no water dishs, and a few old pumkins were in there...i know very little about these awsome torts, but from what i have read the way that they were being taken care of was not correct and i feel bad for them. the person in the pet store also told me that i should be feeding mine ONLY greens and that hays,grasses and other plants that have fiber in them was bad for torts..i asked her "what do they eat in the wild" she could not give me an answer...i value everyones opinion on here because it is making a better life for IGGIE...
Stephanie Logan said:"My position is pretty straight forward. No photos have been provided and there was a very subjective description of the situation.
How many time's has the OP walked into the shop and found the tortoises in that condition and for how long? Did the OP talk to the owner and ask why the tortoises were in that position? Did the OP pick up the tortoises or evaluate the general health of the tortoises?
All I'm commenting on is that what might be bad or wrong to one person is not so to another.
I don't see were there is an acqusation. I'm simply stating an opinion. As stated before I wasn't there or don't know the OPs situation.
I'm pretty confident in my position and the way I stated it. Half of the people who have responded seem to understand what I'm trying to say. That is the mark I look for anytime I express a thought. If there are those who don't get it they are reading it in a perspective that stears them away from the point."
Hooray! Thanks for the clarification.
Don't you feel more like you do now than when you arrived?
Meg90 said:Personally, I think calling ANYONE anti sulcata is ignorant.
Am I anti sully?
No.
That's one of the most ridiculous things I have ever come across on this forum.
What I am against is the prolific, ridiculous, uneducated breeding and selling of small sulcata by unscrupulous breeders and reptile dealerships. They provide them to the masses like Halloween candy...cheap, fun, and disposable.
And yes, I stand behind my claim. There are verrrrrry verrrry few members here that have adult sulcata kept correctly. The majority of sulcata owners present and active on this forum, all have torts under 12 inches. That is small. Three may have been a bad estimate. Maybe there are more like 10.
You want to say that there are tons of people out there and not on the forum with well formed, and properly cared for sullies? I'd love to meet ONE of them. Every sulcata I have ever come across for rehoming is either golf ball sized and cute, or malformed. I have NEVER seen a sulcata tortoise up for "adoption" that had a perfect shell. Or even near to perfect.
The people that have those well formed torts are few and far between, and they KEEP them because it was hard to get them to that beautiful size and shape.
Its the rest of the uneducated, ill advised idiots who own these animals that "re-home" them. AKA dump them when they get to be "problems." when even the TINIEST bit of reading would have saved everyone the heartache.
And what does that sound like? A throw away pet.
Meg90 said:Am I asking to be attacked? Nope. Another foolish thing to say on a public forum.
But if anyone feels the need, go right on ahead. Its against forum rules, mind.
Who is calling you arrogant? I have yet to see that be posted.
And again, all of those animals were dumped. Especially Herman. Found wandering the streets? What else can that even be considered?