Why do people breed Sulcata's

[Kadaan]

I don't believe that breeding Sulcatas is wrong. There are definitely misconceptions by the general public about them though. I'd guess that 3/4 of the hatchlings for sale at the NARBC in Anaheim last month were Sulcatas, ranging from $50-100, definitely the cheapest type there.

What this whole debate/argument seems to revolve around is responsibility: How much responsibility should be placed on the breeder for the welfare of the tortoises they sell?

I think the most we can reasonably expect from a breeder is that they do their part in educating buyers about the needs of their new pet. If the breeder checks and double-checks that the buyer is aware of how large Sulcatas grow, how much space they require, that they need a place to live indoors if it gets too cold where they live, that they eat and poop a lot, and about diet/UVB/humidity... then I don't believe the breeder should have any responsibility past that.

I realize it's horrible to have pets die young due to improper care or being released into the wild (although I'd bet Sulcatas have no higher percentage of fatalities/releases than some other pets. I bet fish are exponentially worse.) The biggest problem are the few breeders who mass-produce Sulcatas to third party vendors (like pet stores) who fail to properly educate customers on what kind of requirements their Sulcatas have. I've seen several stories here on the forum of owners who were told by the pet store/vendor/word of mouth that their Sulcata would take "many years" to get big. I even saw a YouTube video last night of someone saying Greeks were great indoor pets because they only grow to 6-7" max as adults.

The real 'problem' isn't breeders directly, it's the lack of education provided for new owners. Whether this is a pet store or simply breeders who aren't as concerned with the care of the torts as Tyler and Marla are, lumping breeders all into one group and saying that breeding should stop is too broad and doesn't address the real issue that plagues the entire pet industry (remember when Hermit Crabs were all the rage and there were Hermit Crab booths in nearly every major mall? Or how about people who keep goldfish or Bettas in tiny <1 gallon tanks/bowls? )

 

[Millerlite]

if your going to get a horse you should know you need a ranch or a lot of yard space, which a lot of people do know. If your going to get a sulcata they should know they need a lot of yard space, i blame the people buying the tortoises not the sellers, with the internet and stuff they can easily look it up, but they are lazy. If no one bought the tortoise, then breeders would have a bunch of tortoises and stop breeding or start killing eggs because they are over populated with them. like EJ said, Supply and Demand .

 

[Yvonne G]

Sorry for my ignorance Terry, but who is J.M. and where was this "posted today?" Let J.M. know that I think that poster also owns or knows the owner of a pet shop that moved out of the area. Not sure but the terms used are familiar to ones I heard uttered at that store before it moved.

I believe she's talking about Julie McGuire of the Turtle Rescue of Long Island. Julie has her own web site, her own YAHOOgroup and is moderator of the African Tortoise YAHOOgroup. She is also the author of the "the sulcata challenge" article that we re-post here all the time.

Yvonne

 

[terryo]

I'm sorry Sandy...I should have put her name. I asked her if I could cross post and she said yes. It is Julie Maguire from the Turtle Rescue of Long Island. Read the whole thread.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/TurtleRescueLongIsland/?yguid=46465065
http://www.turtlerescues.org/index.htm

 

[-EJ]

It can take many years for them to reach a large size... My speedy took over 7 years to reach 5 lbs.

I don't believe that breeding Sulcatas is wrong. There are definitely misconceptions by the general public about them though. I'd guess that 3/4 of the hatchlings for sale at the NARBC in Anaheim last month were Sulcatas, ranging from $50-100, definitely the cheapest type there.

What this whole debate/argument seems to revolve around is responsibility: How much responsibility should be placed on the breeder for the welfare of the tortoises they sell?

I think the most we can reasonably expect from a breeder is that they do their part in educating buyers about the needs of their new pet. If the breeder checks and double-checks that the buyer is aware of how large Sulcatas grow, how much space they require, that they need a place to live indoors if it gets too cold where they live, that they eat and poop a lot, and about diet/UVB/humidity... then I don't believe the breeder should have any responsibility past that.

I realize it's horrible to have pets die young due to improper care or being released into the wild (although I'd bet Sulcatas have no higher percentage of fatalities/releases than some other pets. I bet fish are exponentially worse.) The biggest problem are the few breeders who mass-produce Sulcatas to third party vendors (like pet stores) who fail to properly educate customers on what kind of requirements their Sulcatas have. I've seen several stories here on the forum of owners who were told by the pet store/vendor/word of mouth that their Sulcata would take "many years" to get big. I even saw a YouTube video last night of someone saying Greeks were great indoor pets because they only grow to 6-7" max as adults.

The real 'problem' isn't breeders directly, it's the lack of education provided for new owners. Whether this is a pet store or simply breeders who aren't as concerned with the care of the torts as Tyler and Marla are, lumping breeders all into one group and saying that breeding should stop is too broad and doesn't address the real issue that plagues the entire pet industry (remember when Hermit Crabs were all the rage and there were Hermit Crab booths in nearly every major mall? Or how about people who keep goldfish or Bettas in tiny <1 gallon tanks/bowls? )

 

[katesgoey]

I'm sorry Sandy...I should have put her name. I asked her if I could cross post and she said yes. It is Julie Maguire from the Turtle Rescue of Long Island. Read the whole thread.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/TurtleRescueLongIsland/?yguid=46465065
http://www.turtlerescues.org/index.htm

No worries, Terry. I thought you might have meant Julie....I'm on the yahoo African Tortoise site - but just wasn't sure. Thanks for clarifying

 

[Candy]

Interesting that out of 65 posts what we've come up with is supply and demand. Not a very convincing argument. I think if you're a responsible breeder you are probably O.K., but the thing is that there's so many more who are not. I was thinking today about show dog breeders and how they breed and sell their animals. They are very picky on who gets their dogs and they offer if anything goes wrong they will take them back. I wonder if Sulcata breeders would think about doing this before they breed them. Probably not because lets face it they live a lot longer then a dog does and they're much harder to take care of and they need a lot more space. I don't think just because you have people who want them is a good enough reason to produce more of them. There's enough out there just trying to make a buck and that's sad for the tortoise. Just because "you love the species" isn't enough reason to mass produce them. I mean I love my Chocolate Labrador, but I'm not going to breed her over and over again. It's not like Sulcata's are becoming extinct are they?

 

[TylerStewart]

Interesting that out of 65 posts what we've come up with is supply and demand. Not a very convincing argument. I think if you're a responsible breeder you are probably O.K., but the thing is that there's so many more who are not. I was thinking today about show dog breeders and how they breed and sell their animals. They are very picky on who gets their dogs and they offer if anything goes wrong they will take them back. I wonder if Sulcata breeders would think about doing this before they breed them. Probably not because lets face it they live a lot longer then a dog does and they're much harder to take care of and they need a lot more space. I don't think just because you have people who want them is a good enough reason to produce more of them. There's enough out there just trying to make a buck and that's sad for the tortoise. Just because "you love the species" isn't enough reason to mass produce them. I mean I love my Chocolate Labrador, but I'm not going to breed her over and over again. It's not like Sulcata's are becoming extinct are they?

But it's not like dogs are becoming extint either.... People still breed dogs because people want pet dogs. Sure there are some that do it with bad (monetary) intentions, there is with anything. I do love the species, but I don't mass produce sulcatas. I don't produce enough of them to keep up with what people ask me for. My tortoises come with care information and a phone number. Rather than everyone ranting about the (non-existant) overpopulation problem, I again ask for some ideas about how best to tackle this issue at hand.

 

[Candy]

I know Tyler it's not you that I'm speaking about. I only wish that most of the breeders out there were more like you. I saw your family and it's very obvious that you're all involved in these reptiles and that your passing it on to your son. That's the kind of breeder that people should want breeding these big guys not the ones just trying to make a buck. About the dogs though, LA county has done something to help with the breeding of the dogs. You now have to spay or neuter your animal before you register them. I know there's holes in that too, but at least they're trying. If people get the word out (just like buying dogs from pet stores that come from puppy mills, that's taken a long time to do also) about home much work these are to take care of and how big they get and it's not just about how cute or how cheap you can buy them for then that should help people make the right decision. Sites like this one where people actually own them and can share their experiences with others about which tortoise might be the best for them and their family's helps also.

 

[Jacqui]

About the dogs though, LA county has done something to help with the breeding of the dogs. You now have to spay or neuter your animal before you register them.

What do you mean by "registering" them? Like only spay/neutered dogs can be licensed? What about folks who believe that is morally, ethically, and even health wise wrong to have them "fixed", but also won't allow them to reproduce?

Sorry about taking this little side step off subject, but I am curious.

 

[Yvonne G]

Its the same way here in Fresno County. But if you have purebred dogs and breed them you can get some sort of permit to do so, and still register your dogs. Also, if you advertise puppies for sale in the newspaper, you have to show that your dog is registered. Problem with all this is Joe Blow and Susie Cream Cheese down the street who have intact male dogs and un-spayed female dogs that run loose in the neighborhoos, breeding and having puppies two or three times a year. They don't get a license for the dogs and never get caught. And these are the types of people that the laws were made for in the first place.

Yvonne

 

[katesgoey]

Its the same way here in Fresno County. But if you have purebred dogs and breed them you can get some sort of permit to do so, and still register your dogs. Also, if you advertise puppies for sale in the newspaper, you have to show that your dog is registered. Problem with all this is Joe Blow and Susie Cream Cheese down the street who have intact male dogs and un-spayed female dogs that run loose in the neighborhoos, breeding and having puppies two or three times a year. They don't get a license for the dogs and never get caught. And these are the types of people that the laws were made for in the first place.

Yvonne

We have the same restrictions and problem here with those who fly under the radar (Joe Blow and Susie Cream Cheese LOL). Meanwhile those with purebred dogs have to pay more to the county, then charge more for their puppies, so those in a lower income bracket can't afford them or their care - even those who would be a great family or parent to a new pup. So they turn to Joe Blow who thought it would be great if his and Ms. Cream Cheese's dogs mated...voila! cheap puppies
I think education is better than regulation.

 

[Laura]

Joe and Susies dogs are most likely Pit bulls or mixes of such, so that is all that ia available anymore. Go to any shelter and see what they have. .. say goodbye to the majority..
And for those people who dont believe in neutering.. they will pay higher lic fees, impund and release fees and thier dogs with have a much higher incidence of cancer. it is thier choice, and many times, others and thier animals, pay the price. What is the most popular gender of dog in the shelters? Intact males, why? they are out looking for the females the smell in heat.. who pays for shelters? Tax payers----Domino effect...ok,, now back to torts..

 

[-EJ]

I'm sorry... what's this got to do with the topic??????

Believe it or not there is a connection...

Bunny huggers...

I guess that's not a bad thing but the idea of ramming it down the general populations throat... that causes friction and with enough friction the machine... siezes... stops... comes to a halt.

I've been fighting this forever... attitude. The extremists on both ends but heads to prove who is 'right' and there really is not a right answer.

Personally... I think too many Sulcatas is a good thing... What I'd like to see... is too many Stars, Radiata, Egyptians, Angulata... and a few others.

Has anyone noticed the herps coming out of Slovenia? They are breeding Hermanns, Marginateds and Greeks by the hundreds.

You can now find Marginateds for $100 for hatchlings... that was unheard of years ago...

Stars are getting there... Leopards...

Watch out when the key to Aldabras is found...

Is that a bad thing.

Joe and Susies dogs are most likely Pit bulls or mixes of such, so that is all that ia available anymore. Go to any shelter and see what they have. .. say goodbye to the majority..
And for those people who dont believe in neutering.. they will pay higher lic fees, impund and release fees and thier dogs with have a much higher incidence of cancer. it is thier choice, and many times, others and thier animals, pay the price. What is the most popular gender of dog in the shelters? Intact males, why? they are out looking for the females the smell in heat.. who pays for shelters? Tax payers----Domino effect...ok,, now back to torts..

 

[Candy]

About the dogs though, LA county has done something to help with the breeding of the dogs. You now have to spay or neuter your animal before you register them.

What do you mean by "registering" them? Like only spay/neutered dogs can be licensed? What about folks who believe that is morally, ethically, and even health wise wrong to have them "fixed", but also won't allow them to reproduce?

Sorry about taking this little side step off subject, but I am curious.

Actually Jacqui I'm one of those people. I had spayed and neutered my poodle and my Labrador the first time around and this time I'm doing things differently. I don't agree in the health reasoning of fixing them. It's just the irresponsible people end up making the responsible ones pay.

 

[reptylefreek]

I think at some point every type of animal is said to be over produced and every one complains about animal neglect. But I agree that they are not a problem. There are almost never any on craigslist here in seattle and no one I know owns one around here. I personally would not breed because I am so picky I would never find homes for them. I think that if your a concerned animal owner you should be more worried about cats and dogs then any other animal. They might be the most popular pet and lots af people take excellent care of them, but there are also so many homeless ones, EVERYWHERE. I also think too many of a miracle like sulcatas is a good thing. And I would also like to see more exotics. If all of us tort freaks would just try to keep people informed it would help, if anything. All you people who happen upon a pet store and see a baby sulcata on weird substrate and eating wrong food, and you go in and talk to the employees about it, you've already helped. Thats really all you can do.

 

[-EJ]

reading the last post... I know there are tons of tortoise who would love a free Sulcata or any other tortoise...

 

[reptylefreek]

I would love some EJ... have any to spare? Like your beautiful Aldabra? LOL

 

[-EJ]

I have all you want... for free...

but... there is an adoption fee of $3000.... no... $4000 each.

ummm... thanks. I love them also. They are work though.

BTW... what are you doing up a 3am??????

I would love some EJ... have any to spare? Like your beautiful Aldabra? LOL

 

[reptylefreek]

Its not quite 3 here.. been lately staying up that late cuz I dont work till late the next day. I start at like 5pm
Plus I'm a night owl