Why do people breed Sulcata's

[jhaparth2006]

Hello,
I am from India.And i have a very interesting point here.In India,having tortoises at home is illegal.Its a huge fine and jail as punishment.Being curious about wildlife.I am quiet involved in breeding and petting activities though illegal as per the law.I have seen pet stores having tortoises in such dirty conditions that you wouldn't have seen anywhere.And most of them sold are not in a healthy conditions.They will cost about 30US$ to 60US$ as per the size.The point i have is,what if having pet tortoises and turtles is made legal?Even now breeding is done at illegal bases,with fithy and dirty conditions.So if the goverment makes it legal,like only authorized people are allowed to breed and sell them,these sales can be done at a better level,atleast it wont introduce unhealthy animals into pet trade!I saw on TV that all tortoises which are sold are injected with a microchip.Why cant they do it here?Only captive bred specimens for sale!Thats it!The condition here is so poor that even a UVB light is not available!Please do reply on this.Am i right in my point of view?Should i take these points to a higher level in the goverment?

 

[reptylefreek]

We have laws here in the US that prohibit the sale of turtles under three inches unless its for "scientific purposes". But I have never heard of a person getting in trouble for this. Also we have laws for protected species, I owned an American Alligator, ordered her from online and carried her around all the time. I wasn't aware of the law until I started asking questions. These laws would be very hard to enforce, on top of that there is a grandfather clause. Any one who owns a turtle or tort before this said law would have to still be aloud to keep them. It would get so complicated. Plus I dont really ever se unhealthy animals in the pet trade. Every so often you hear of one or two people who get a parasite infected tort from petsmart, but here in WA stores are watched closely. Plus if petsmart has this horrible wrap why are people still shopping there. Any who, got off topic, it just wouldn't work here. If your rules are already that strict, start reporting people who dont care for their animals properly.

 

[chairman]

I think one element of the debate that is missing here is how much better it is to have sulcatas overbred in captivity than it is to have them harvested from the wild. Obviously neither are optimal, but captive breeding is proabably preferable. I don't know the statistics, but I would imagine that the fatality rates for captive bred sulcatas that are mistreated by uninformed folks has to be lower than the fatality rates of those poor torts that get crammed in boxes and shipped on the slow boat from China (ok, Africa, but still). As someone who keeps tortoises that are rarely available captive bred, I would see an overbreeding problem as a blessing. It saddens me to think that the journey my torts took to get to me started off by hanging on a string by one leg in a street market, then getting shoved into burlap sacks, crated with hundreds of other tortoises with no food or water and managing to survive getting crushed to death all while having to breath in the stench of death and feces. My personal opinion, I would rather have a bunch of irresponsible backyard breeders who accidentally eliminate the need for importation because they think it is amusing to watch their tortoises reproduce.

 

[TheACO731]

We have laws here in the US that prohibit the sale of turtles under three inches unless its for "scientific purposes"

Interesting fact! This law was only enacted in the U.S. for one reason, in the 70's there was a wide spread break out of salmonella in children. It was thought that if a turtle was over 3", a child would be less likely to place it in his or her mouth. The law had nothing to do with the protection of the species at all!. Last I heard the law is getting close to being repealed.

 

[Yvonne G]

Actually it is 4", but who's counting.

 

[Candy]

We have laws here in the US that prohibit the sale of turtles under three inches unless its for "scientific purposes"

Interesting fact! This law was only enacted in the U.S. for one reason, in the 70's there was a wide spread break out of salmonella in children. It was thought that if a turtle was over 3", a child would be less likely to place it in his or her mouth. The law had nothing to do with the protection of the species at all!. Last I heard the law is getting close to being repealed.

I have been hearing this quote often and would love someone to tell me about it, "Cannot be sold only for scientific purposes". What does that really mean. What do they do with a tortoise that would be bought for scientific purpose?

 

[Yvonne G]

Here's an excerpt from the Federal law concerning turtles less than 4":

(d) Exceptions. The provisions of this section are not applicable to:

(1) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and viable turtle eggs for bona fide scientific, educational, or exhibitional purposes, other than use as pets.
(2) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and viable turtle eggs not in connection with a business.
(3) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and turtle eggs intended for export only, provided that the outside of the shipping package is conspicuously labeled "for export only."
(4) Marine turtles excluded from this regulation under the provisions of paragraph (a) of this section and eggs of such turtles.

So, in #1 we see that it is ok to sell a smaller turtle for BONA FIDE scientific, educational or exhibitional purposes...just not for pet.

And in #2 we see that if you aren't connected with a business, its quite ok to sell them or distribute them.

 

[Candy]

But I still would like to know what they do scientifically with them if anything? But then again maybe I don't want to know because my family always tells me that I should belong to Peta.

 

[redreatta]

you wanna talk about upset.....i went to a local petstore to see if they had some seed for sale and when i get to the bak of the store i find 11 adult sulcatas in a wooden cage about the size of a large bookcase, they were all scrunched together no room to move. the sign read NOT FOR SALE. they were for breeding only. i felt so bad for these guys. just makes me wanna hurl. the person in the store said the owner was the (info god on sulcatas) all of them had bone problems. there backs were all sunken in,

I was also asking for info on the beautiful torts and the person in the store gave me all bad info. needless to say i will never buy anything from (the store beside old toys r us on morse rd in columbus ohio

 

[-EJ]

There's a huge chunk of information missing from this story.

you wanna talk about upset.....i went to a local petstore to see if they had some seed for sale and when i get to the bak of the store i find 11 adult sulcatas in a wooden cage about the size of a large bookcase, they were all scrunched together no room to move. the sign read NOT FOR SALE. they were for breeding only. i felt so bad for these guys. just makes me wanna hurl. the person in the store said the owner was the (info god on sulcatas) all of them had bone problems. there backs were all sunken in,

I was also asking for info on the beautiful torts and the person in the store gave me all bad info. needless to say i will never buy anything from (the store beside old toys r us on morse rd in columbus ohio

 

[Meg90]

What is missing Ed? The fact that those store keepers were trying to breed animals that were obviously NOT adult sized, and also riddled with MBD? Or that they had all the wrong information and were passing that on to potential owners?

Somehow people always have a fact that supports their argument, but when presented with something that doesn't agree, they want to dismiss right away.

 

[TheACO731]

I was thinking about the amount of sulcta hatchlings that I see in local stores for sale and how many full grown sulcatas I see or hear about in my area... I would guess the survival rate is about 7% at most. Anyone else have similar observations?

 

[Candy]

There's a huge chunk of information missing from this story.

you wanna talk about upset.....i went to a local petstore to see if they had some seed for sale and when i get to the bak of the store i find 11 adult sulcatas in a wooden cage about the size of a large bookcase, they were all scrunched together no room to move. the sign read NOT FOR SALE. they were for breeding only. i felt so bad for these guys. just makes me wanna hurl. the person in the store said the owner was the (info god on sulcatas) all of them had bone problems. there backs were all sunken in,

I was also asking for info on the beautiful torts and the person in the store gave me all bad info. needless to say i will never buy anything from (the store beside old toys r us on morse rd in columbus ohio

Would you like to fill in what is missing for us so we can actually know what you're talking about? I'm wondering why you don't ever finish anything that you comment on. Is it because you don't really know what the problem is?

 

[reptylefreek]

Hey what about the happy stories??? We all talk about the worst we've seen and all these horrible owners... what about the petstores and breeders that do a very good job. I only very rarely hear some one take pride in a home town pet store. I cant imagine its because there are none out there. Its because people seem to naturally only see something when its bad. Just like how you boss never prides you on good work and only tells you what your doing wrong. The guy I got my sulcata from still answers my emails and gives me advice when I truely need it. And he still breeds to this day with no complaints on the site he sells them on. These STUPID MORONIC people who treat animals like s**t ruin it for the rest of them that spend every last minute of their lives worried about the well being of the animals they are selling.

 

[-EJ]

That's not for me to comment because I wasn't there and the individual making the observation doesn't seem to have all the facts and also seems to be taking the observation out of context.

There's a huge chunk of information missing from this story.

you wanna talk about upset.....i went to a local petstore to see if they had some seed for sale and when i get to the bak of the store i find 11 adult sulcatas in a wooden cage about the size of a large bookcase, they were all scrunched together no room to move. the sign read NOT FOR SALE. they were for breeding only. i felt so bad for these guys. just makes me wanna hurl. the person in the store said the owner was the (info god on sulcatas) all of them had bone problems. there backs were all sunken in,

I was also asking for info on the beautiful torts and the person in the store gave me all bad info. needless to say i will never buy anything from (the store beside old toys r us on morse rd in columbus ohio

Would you like to fill in what is missing for us so we can actually know what you're talking about? I'm wondering why you don't ever finish anything that you comment on. Is it because you don't really know what the problem is?

 

[redreatta]

ok you guys lost me,lol who wants to know what?

 

[Stephanie Logan]

That's not for me to comment because I wasn't there and the individual making the observation doesn't seem to have all the facts and also seems to be taking the observation out of context.

There's a huge chunk of information missing from this story.

you wanna talk about upset.....i went to a local petstore to see if they had some seed for sale and when i get to the bak of the store i find 11 adult sulcatas in a wooden cage about the size of a large bookcase, they were all scrunched together no room to move. the sign read NOT FOR SALE. they were for breeding only. i felt so bad for these guys. just makes me wanna hurl. the person in the store said the owner was the (info god on sulcatas) all of them had bone problems. there backs were all sunken in,

I was also asking for info on the beautiful torts and the person in the store gave me all bad info. needless to say i will never buy anything from (the store beside old toys r us on morse rd in columbus ohio

Would you like to fill in what is missing for us so we can actually know what you're talking about? I'm wondering why you don't ever finish anything that you comment on. Is it because you don't really know what the problem is?

EJ, it does become very tiresome when you hijack a thread with an arcane or provocative accusation and when asked to clarify your position, you respond with an equally nonsensical sidestepping of both your original comment and the clarification request.

Let me help you out: Redreatta was upset by the sight of a group of Sulcatas kept in a tiny cage "for breeding purposes" and severely pryramided, indicating astonishingly poor husbandry bordering on animal cruelty.

So, what you need to explain is your claim that "the individual making the observation doesn't seem to have all the facts and also seems to be taking the observation out of context."

What facts are you missing?

What context are you spectating from?

 

[-EJ]

The 'facts' I'm missing are a photo of the situation and why those animals are in that situation.

Pretty simple.

That's not for me to comment because I wasn't there and the individual making the observation doesn't seem to have all the facts and also seems to be taking the observation out of context.

There's a huge chunk of information missing from this story.

you wanna talk about upset.....i went to a local petstore to see if they had some seed for sale and when i get to the bak of the store i find 11 adult sulcatas in a wooden cage about the size of a large bookcase, they were all scrunched together no room to move. the sign read NOT FOR SALE. they were for breeding only. i felt so bad for these guys. just makes me wanna hurl. the person in the store said the owner was the (info god on sulcatas) all of them had bone problems. there backs were all sunken in,

I was also asking for info on the beautiful torts and the person in the store gave me all bad info. needless to say i will never buy anything from (the store beside old toys r us on morse rd in columbus ohio

Would you like to fill in what is missing for us so we can actually know what you're talking about? I'm wondering why you don't ever finish anything that you comment on. Is it because you don't really know what the problem is?

EJ, it does become very tiresome when you hijack a thread with an arcane or provocative accusation and when asked to clarify your position, you respond with an equally nonsensical sidestepping of both your original comment and the clarification request.

Let me help you out: Redreatta was upset by the sight of a group of Sulcatas kept in a tiny cage "for breeding purposes" and severely pryramided, indicating astonishingly poor husbandry bordering on animal cruelty.

So, what you need to explain is your claim that "the individual making the observation doesn't seem to have all the facts and also seems to be taking the observation out of context."

What facts are you missing?

What context are you spectating from?

 

[Candy]

Their in that situation due to money and sales of Sulcata's. Cute little Sulcata's that people buy because they're cheap and cute.

Pretty simple.

 

[-EJ]

Anyone who has a clule as to breeding tortoises knows the situation described is not probable.

Their in that situation due to money and sales of Sulcata's. Cute little Sulcata's that people buy because they're cheap and cute.

Pretty simple.