Why do people breed Sulcata's

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redreatta

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the problem lies there.....i dont believe they know how to breed. i wish i could have taken a picture for you. but the place is a 45 min drive away for me and the thought of going back there makes my tummy hurt.
 

Stephanie Logan

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"The 'facts' I'm missing are a photo of the situation and why those animals are in that situation.

Pretty simple."

Quibble: a use of ambiguous or irrelevant language to evade a point at issue.

Obtuse: slow in understanding or feeling.

Obtrude: to thrust forward without warrant or invitation.


Dictionaries are valuable reference books both for definitions and for correct spelling. You ought to dust yours off, Ed.
 

Meg90

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Anyone who wants to throw around phrases like Its not possible. No that's not how it works. That's not true.


These phrases hould follow with an explanation. Otherwise, they become only a useless provocation to others who feel very strongly on the matter. This is supposed to be debate, and I applaud my other members for actually debating. However, if you are posting in this thread just to fuel fires, please stop.

I have read tons of horror stories here, most of them about sulcata. I have also seen about 85% of the newbies here, either COME with a sick baby sully that they don't know how to care for, or come on here to ask about getting one. They are the easiest tortoise species to find. They seem more exotic because of the size they will reach. They ARE the cheapest CB tort you can come by. And MAN who doesn't love a big tortoise? It can like, walk around your kitchen when its too big for an aquarium, and I heard, like, the fridge will keep it warm!

I see this mentality EVERY time I tell people I have tortoises.

I would love to see the better side of this adebate. But there are what, three people here that take proper care of their adult Sulcata? The rest just have wee babies. Oh, and I would love to see some sulcata with owners not of this forum, that are not riddled with MBD and suffering from severe neglect.
 

dmmj

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I personally like ed, do I always agree with everything he says? no of course not but i know him from a couple of other turtle groups and I think he gets a bad rap sometimes. I think he was mainly talking about the turtles being kept at the pet store, were they there only temporary thus the breeding only sign so people would not inquire about them? I don't know since all the information is not there we only have one person's observation, if the tortoises were being kept like that all the time and not in transit somewhere, then yes that would be horrible conditions to be ketp in. Was the tortoises rescues of some type that people took away from horrible conditions? Again not enough info in my viewpoint. I am not defending the tortoises being kept in those conditions. IMHO if you are breeeding sulc's just to make money without regards to the future type of care they recieve is wrong. I almost wish they were more exspensive like when they first came out so people would think twice or three times before buying a cute 40 dollar sulc. It is sad but the more money people spend on a tort or turtle the better care they usually give it. I see lots of RES being treated like throw away pets because, well you can always buy a baby for like 5$ in chinatown so what if it dies? it is sad. please forgive the long winded post.
 

TylerStewart

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Meg90 said:
I have read tons of horror stories here, most of them about sulcata. I have also seen about 85% of the newbies here, either COME with a sick baby sully that they don't know how to care for, or come on here to ask about getting one. They are the easiest tortoise species to find. They seem more exotic because of the size they will reach. They ARE the cheapest CB tort you can come by. And MAN who doesn't love a big tortoise? It can like, walk around your kitchen when its too big for an aquarium, and I heard, like, the fridge will keep it warm!

I see this mentality EVERY time I tell people I have tortoises.

I would love to see the better side of this adebate. But there are what, three people here that take proper care of their adult Sulcata? The rest just have wee babies. Oh, and I would love to see some sulcata with owners not of this forum, that are not riddled with MBD and suffering from severe neglect.

I had just said (not sure if it was this thread or the other), people flock to forums when they have a problem with their tortoises. They don't come here to tell you their tortoise is doing great. I think it's rediculous to suggest that only 3 people on this forum and a few others with babies are the only ones that are capable of keeping their tortoises healthy. Believe it or not, there's an entire world outside of TortoiseForum.org. There's a few dozen active members here, many or most of which are anti-sulcata, and you base your mindset on this group of tortoise rescuers and people coming here for help? Of course you're seeing the negative in everything.

The part about the missing facts that nobody seems to understand is that per the description of the store -
11 adult sulcatas in a wooden cage about the size of a large bookcase, they were all scrunched together no room to move. the sign read NOT FOR SALE. they were for breeding only.
This is not a way that anyone would use or could use to breed sulcatas. It was either a temporary home for them, or they're not producing anything, one or the other. If you were intentionally trying not to get your tortoises to breed, this would pretty much be what it would take to accomplish that.
 

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dmmj said:
I personally like ed, do I always agree with everything he says? no of course not but i know him from a couple of other turtle groups and I think he gets a bad rap sometimes.

I like Ed too. Its just that he forgets that when he posts something on a forum or a listserv, its out there for the whole world to see. We have over 1000 forum members, and any one can read the posts as a "guest." So his explanation that he explains his answers when he's asked a question by one person or in an email, or whatever, doesn't hold water. If you're going to say something on a forum for the world to read, then you need to explain it well enough that anyone can understand. No matter how many times you've explained it someplace else.

I think that because of his tortoise expertise his mind works faster than he can put the thought down through the keyboard. And we, the readers, are the losers. He has so much to offer, but it tends to get lost in the shuffle.
 

dmmj

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I do have to take exception to most of us being anti sulc. If anything I think we are anti ignorant people buying a sulc without any knowledge of them group. I personally do private rescue and evreytime I post on CL's I always get 2 or so offers from people who need to get rid of one. I almost always get the same response, " I bought this cut elittle tort and he hasa gotten to big for me to take care of" lately as few have been " due to economic situaiton i can't take care of him/her anymore" I am all for people geting a sulc if they ant one but I always urge to just do a little research on how big they get how destructive they are and then if you still want one and you think you can provide a home then get one and enjoy it. If I am wrong about most of the people here being anti sulc then I apologize, I just don't think most of us are.
 

Stephanie Logan

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As far as the original topic of this thread is concerned, I am not "pro" or "anti" Sulcata. I am a novice to the tortoise world, and am generally content to read the opinions and debate of the many experts--including EJ--who post here.

What I object to is a person who seeks to undermine the debate, rather than contribute to the discussion.

"you wanna talk about upset.....i went to a local petstore to see if they had some seed for sale and when i get to the bak of the store i find 11 adult sulcatas in a wooden cage about the size of a large bookcase, they were all scrunched together no room to move. the sign read NOT FOR SALE. they were for breeding only. i felt so bad for these guys. just makes me wanna hurl. the person in the store said the owner was the (info god on sulcatas) all of them had bone problems. there backs were all sunken in
I was also asking for info on the beautiful torts and the person in the store gave me all bad info. needless to say i will never buy anything from (the store beside old toys r us on morse rd in columbus ohio
"

All I read here is that the poster was "upset" at the physical condition and too-small enclosure of the Sulcatas she saw in the back of her local pet store. The only salient facts are 1) 11 adult Sulcatas in a wooden cage the size of a bookcase" and 2)"their backs were all sunken in".

Ed accuses, "There's a huge chunk of information missing from this story", then refuses to illuminate that "chunk" for the rest of us, instead choosing to obfuscate the issue by claiming,"That's not for me to comment because I wasn't there and the individual making the observation doesn't seem to have all the facts and also seems to be taking the observation out of context" and then when asked to explain this accusation (yes, Ed, you are accusing the original poster of not having "all the facts" and "taking the observation out of context"), continues to dissemble by blithely excusing himself from the discussion with "The 'facts' I'm missing are a photo of the situation and why those animals are in that situation. Pretty simple."

Well, gee. That really clarifies EJ's position. Yep, as clear as mud!

In my opinion, if you are going to respond in such a condescending, dismissive tone, you OWE it to those of us who are trying to understand your criticism to explain yourself. In my opinion, you should cease this "stab and run" tactic. Your inability to clarify your viewpoints disqualifies you from criticising others. If you can't answer a simple question, don't participate. Worse, if you make a mean-spirited and unfounded accusation, either explain your position or apologize and retract your charge. Obviously you can choose to continue pretending to be only one who truly gets it, accusing others of JUDGMENTALism, and implying that most of us are naive and ignorant. Just know that you are not deceiving anyone so much as yourself.
 

-EJ

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My position is pretty straight forward. No photos have been provided and there was a very subjective description of the situation.

How many time's has the OP walked into the shop and found the tortoises in that condition and for how long? Did the OP talk to the owner and ask why the tortoises were in that position? Did the OP pick up the tortoises or evaluate the general health of the tortoises?

All I'm commenting on is that what might be bad or wrong to one person is not so to another.

I don't see were there is an acqusation. I'm simply stating an opinion. As stated before I wasn't there or don't know the OPs situation.

I'm pretty confident in my position and the way I stated it. Half of the people who have responded seem to understand what I'm trying to say. That is the mark I look for anytime I express a thought. If there are those who don't get it they are reading it in a perspective that stears them away from the point.

Stephanie Logan said:
As far as the original topic of this thread is concerned, I am not "pro" or "anti" Sulcata. I am a novice to the tortoise world, and am generally content to read the opinions and debate of the many experts--including EJ--who post here.

What I object to is a person who seeks to undermine the debate, rather than contribute to the discussion.

"you wanna talk about upset.....i went to a local petstore to see if they had some seed for sale and when i get to the bak of the store i find 11 adult sulcatas in a wooden cage about the size of a large bookcase, they were all scrunched together no room to move. the sign read NOT FOR SALE. they were for breeding only. i felt so bad for these guys. just makes me wanna hurl. the person in the store said the owner was the (info god on sulcatas) all of them had bone problems. there backs were all sunken in
I was also asking for info on the beautiful torts and the person in the store gave me all bad info. needless to say i will never buy anything from (the store beside old toys r us on morse rd in columbus ohio
"

All I read here is that the poster was "upset" at the physical condition and too-small enclosure of the Sulcatas she saw in the back of her local pet store. The only salient facts are 1) 11 adult Sulcatas in a wooden cage the size of a bookcase" and 2)"their backs were all sunken in".

Ed accuses, "There's a huge chunk of information missing from this story", then refuses to illuminate that "chunk" for the rest of us, instead choosing to obfuscate the issue by claiming,"That's not for me to comment because I wasn't there and the individual making the observation doesn't seem to have all the facts and also seems to be taking the observation out of context" and then when asked to explain this accusation (yes, Ed, you are accusing the original poster of not having "all the facts" and "taking the observation out of context"), continues to dissemble by blithely excusing himself from the discussion with "The 'facts' I'm missing are a photo of the situation and why those animals are in that situation. Pretty simple."

Well, gee. That really clarifies EJ's position. Yep, as clear as mud!

In my opinion, if you are going to respond in such a condescending, dismissive tone, you OWE it to those of us who are trying to understand your criticism to explain yourself. In my opinion, you should cease this "stab and run" tactic. Your inability to clarify your viewpoints disqualifies you from criticising others. If you can't answer a simple question, don't participate. Worse, if you make a mean-spirited and unfounded accusation, either explain your position or apologize and retract your charge. Obviously you can choose to continue pretending to be only one who truly gets it, accusing others of JUDGMENTALism, and implying that most of us are naive and ignorant. Just know that you are not deceiving anyone so much as yourself.
 

chadk

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I agree with Tyler. That was a pretty silly thing to say Meg90...
 

redreatta

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dmmj said:
I personally like ed, do I always agree with everything he says? no of course not but i know him from a couple of other turtle groups and I think he gets a bad rap sometimes. I think he was mainly talking about the turtles being kept at the pet store, were they there only temporary thus the breeding only sign so people would not inquire about them? I don't know since all the information is not there we only have one person's observation, if the tortoises were being kept like that all the time and not in transit somewhere, then yes that would be horrible conditions to be ketp in. Was the tortoises rescues of some type that people took away from horrible conditions? Again not enough info in my viewpoint. I am not defending the tortoises being kept in those conditions. IMHO if you are breeeding sulc's just to make money without regards to the future type of care they recieve is wrong. I almost wish they were more exspensive like when they first came out so people would think twice or three times before buying a cute 40 dollar sulc. It is sad but the more money people spend on a tort or turtle the better care they usually give it. I see lots of RES being treated like throw away pets because, well you can always buy a baby for like 5$ in chinatown so what if it dies? it is sad. please forgive the long winded post.

ok to clear that one up. the person in the pet store said that the torts stay in that cage till it gets warm out again....being in ohio that will not be till may or june. the size of the pen was roughly 6 ft by 4 ft. 11 adult sulcatas (HUGE!) in this area did not seem to be very humane. there was no room for them to move about. there shells, more so toward the rear was sunken in very deep. no water dishs, and a few old pumkins were in there...i know very little about these awsome torts, but from what i have read the way that they were being taken care of was not correct and i feel bad for them. the person in the pet store also told me that i should be feeding mine ONLY greens and that hays,grasses and other plants that have fiber in them was bad for torts..i asked her "what do they eat in the wild" she could not give me an answer...i value everyones opinion on here because it is making a better life for IGGIE...
 

oswego tort lover

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i don't think EJ undermined this debate at all in fact i understood what he was saying with out any problem . if at times a debate doesn't rise to a socratic dialoge well it happen's . no one's holding you back .. you sure come across as angry. you are the student yelling at the prof here , and i see no reason for it . i would urge you to apologize to him and return to the debate.
 

Stephanie Logan

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"My position is pretty straight forward. No photos have been provided and there was a very subjective description of the situation.

How many time's has the OP walked into the shop and found the tortoises in that condition and for how long? Did the OP talk to the owner and ask why the tortoises were in that position? Did the OP pick up the tortoises or evaluate the general health of the tortoises?

All I'm commenting on is that what might be bad or wrong to one person is not so to another.

I don't see were there is an acqusation. I'm simply stating an opinion. As stated before I wasn't there or don't know the OPs situation.

I'm pretty confident in my position and the way I stated it. Half of the people who have responded seem to understand what I'm trying to say. That is the mark I look for anytime I express a thought. If there are those who don't get it they are reading it in a perspective that stears them away from the point.
"

Hooray! Thanks for the clarification.

Don't you feel more like you do now than when you arrived?
 

-EJ

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I appreciate your sentiment but I'm a tortoise keeper... just like you. I'm guessing the only difference between us is the time kept and the numbers of animals. I always say that if I get to the level that I actually think I'm better than another... slap me. Haven't been slapped yet... (and be careful if you do)

Again... thank you but I don't think an appology is warranted. I know how passions run on many sides.


oswego tort lover said:
i don't think EJ undermined this debate at all in fact i understood what he was saying with out any problem . if at times a debate doesn't rise to a socratic dialoge well it happen's . no one's holding you back .. you sure come across as angry. you are the student yelling at the prof here , and i see no reason for it . i would urge you to apologize to him and return to the debate.


I'm having trouble understanding what is going on here. If this shop keeper has that many tortoises... where did they come from? The keeper must be involved in the hobby. They must have a little knowledge.

On the other hand... as I was typing the first part... a thought did occur to me (again... that happens sometimes)... the shop keeper got the animals in a trade and really doesn't have a clue. Again... not being there or having an objective observation... I can't say. That's pretty much my point.

redreatta said:
dmmj said:
I personally like ed, do I always agree with everything he says? no of course not but i know him from a couple of other turtle groups and I think he gets a bad rap sometimes. I think he was mainly talking about the turtles being kept at the pet store, were they there only temporary thus the breeding only sign so people would not inquire about them? I don't know since all the information is not there we only have one person's observation, if the tortoises were being kept like that all the time and not in transit somewhere, then yes that would be horrible conditions to be ketp in. Was the tortoises rescues of some type that people took away from horrible conditions? Again not enough info in my viewpoint. I am not defending the tortoises being kept in those conditions. IMHO if you are breeeding sulc's just to make money without regards to the future type of care they recieve is wrong. I almost wish they were more exspensive like when they first came out so people would think twice or three times before buying a cute 40 dollar sulc. It is sad but the more money people spend on a tort or turtle the better care they usually give it. I see lots of RES being treated like throw away pets because, well you can always buy a baby for like 5$ in chinatown so what if it dies? it is sad. please forgive the long winded post.

ok to clear that one up. the person in the pet store said that the torts stay in that cage till it gets warm out again....being in ohio that will not be till may or june. the size of the pen was roughly 6 ft by 4 ft. 11 adult sulcatas (HUGE!) in this area did not seem to be very humane. there was no room for them to move about. there shells, more so toward the rear was sunken in very deep. no water dishs, and a few old pumkins were in there...i know very little about these awsome torts, but from what i have read the way that they were being taken care of was not correct and i feel bad for them. the person in the pet store also told me that i should be feeding mine ONLY greens and that hays,grasses and other plants that have fiber in them was bad for torts..i asked her "what do they eat in the wild" she could not give me an answer...i value everyones opinion on here because it is making a better life for IGGIE...


huh?

Stephanie Logan said:
"My position is pretty straight forward. No photos have been provided and there was a very subjective description of the situation.

How many time's has the OP walked into the shop and found the tortoises in that condition and for how long? Did the OP talk to the owner and ask why the tortoises were in that position? Did the OP pick up the tortoises or evaluate the general health of the tortoises?

All I'm commenting on is that what might be bad or wrong to one person is not so to another.

I don't see were there is an acqusation. I'm simply stating an opinion. As stated before I wasn't there or don't know the OPs situation.

I'm pretty confident in my position and the way I stated it. Half of the people who have responded seem to understand what I'm trying to say. That is the mark I look for anytime I express a thought. If there are those who don't get it they are reading it in a perspective that stears them away from the point.
"

Hooray! Thanks for the clarification.

Don't you feel more like you do now than when you arrived?
 

Meg90

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Personally, I think calling ANYONE anti sulcata is ignorant.

Am I anti sully?

No.

That's one of the most ridiculous things I have ever come across on this forum.

What I am against is the prolific, ridiculous, uneducated breeding and selling of small sulcata by unscrupulous breeders and reptile dealerships. They provide them to the masses like Halloween candy...cheap, fun, and disposable.

And yes, I stand behind my claim. There are verrrrrry verrrry few members here that have adult sulcata kept correctly. The majority of sulcata owners present and active on this forum, all have torts under 12 inches. That is small. Three may have been a bad estimate. Maybe there are more like 10.

You want to say that there are tons of people out there and not on the forum with well formed, and properly cared for sullies? I'd love to meet ONE of them. Every sulcata I have ever come across for rehoming is either golf ball sized and cute, or malformed. I have NEVER seen a sulcata tortoise up for "adoption" that had a perfect shell. Or even near to perfect.

The people that have those well formed torts are few and far between, and they KEEP them because it was hard to get them to that beautiful size and shape.

Its the rest of the uneducated, ill advised idiots who own these animals that "re-home" them. AKA dump them when they get to be "problems." when even the TINIEST bit of reading would have saved everyone the heartache.

And what does that sound like? A throw away pet.
 

Candy

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Well back to the beginning of this thread. As I started it I told you that I was at a petstore who had two Sulcata's in what was probably a 6'x3' about 2 foot deep enclosure. I think I had also added that they had already been sited before. Now here's another person saying the same thing about another petstore selling them. Now whether or not they're not going to be there "forever" as some of you are trying to point out still seems cruel. Maggie's about the only one so far who has explained this to me in a way that I understood. I have heard people on this forum who told others that they can't keep a Sulcata (lets say) that's 20lbs. in too small of an enclosure because it's just not right to do that, now what makes it right for the petstores to do it? And if we're talking about not making any money off of them then why were they going for $2000.00 for the small one and $2500.00 for the bigger one. Seems like a big chunk of change to me.
 

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They are not bred in as large a numbers as you seem to think.

I can ship them world wide but can't find the numbers to make it profitable.

...and I'm called arrogant. What do you consider 'kept properly'?

Are you looking to be attacked.

Here are some Sulcatas I've adopted...

This is Herman... found wandering the streets of some town in Michican...

Herman2.jpg


It's sad and I'm sorry to say that I don't remember the origin of this guys but I do have records to jog the f/u'd memory...

HermanandFriends.jpg


This is big Al and one of the first adoptions... about 10 years ago...
BestFriends.jpg



Meg90 said:
Personally, I think calling ANYONE anti sulcata is ignorant.

Am I anti sully?

No.

That's one of the most ridiculous things I have ever come across on this forum.

What I am against is the prolific, ridiculous, uneducated breeding and selling of small sulcata by unscrupulous breeders and reptile dealerships. They provide them to the masses like Halloween candy...cheap, fun, and disposable.

And yes, I stand behind my claim. There are verrrrrry verrrry few members here that have adult sulcata kept correctly. The majority of sulcata owners present and active on this forum, all have torts under 12 inches. That is small. Three may have been a bad estimate. Maybe there are more like 10.

You want to say that there are tons of people out there and not on the forum with well formed, and properly cared for sullies? I'd love to meet ONE of them. Every sulcata I have ever come across for rehoming is either golf ball sized and cute, or malformed. I have NEVER seen a sulcata tortoise up for "adoption" that had a perfect shell. Or even near to perfect.

The people that have those well formed torts are few and far between, and they KEEP them because it was hard to get them to that beautiful size and shape.

Its the rest of the uneducated, ill advised idiots who own these animals that "re-home" them. AKA dump them when they get to be "problems." when even the TINIEST bit of reading would have saved everyone the heartache.

And what does that sound like? A throw away pet.
 

Meg90

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Am I asking to be attacked? Nope. Another foolish thing to say on a public forum.

But if anyone feels the need, go right on ahead. Its against forum rules, mind.

Who is calling you arrogant? I have yet to see that be posted.

And again, all of those animals were dumped. Especially Herman. Found wandering the streets? What else can that even be considered?
 

-EJ

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I'm pretty comfortable saying what I did.

I think I can honestly say that I have a little more experience as to saying stupid/thoughtless things online.

The 'arrogant' thing might be from another 'conversation'.

You so nailed the point. Herman was found wandering the streets. The person who found him (who I believe is a her) posted sighns all over to find the owner. They decided they could not handle a huge tortoise... I believe they could have. A more caring family you could not find. Herman was definately not dumped.

I'm seriously holding back from using the B word.

This is my last response to you. You have some serious anger issues and it is not productive to this conversation.

Meg90 said:
Am I asking to be attacked? Nope. Another foolish thing to say on a public forum.

But if anyone feels the need, go right on ahead. Its against forum rules, mind.

Who is calling you arrogant? I have yet to see that be posted.

And again, all of those animals were dumped. Especially Herman. Found wandering the streets? What else can that even be considered?
 

Meg90

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I don't know how anyone can say that these are NOT being bred in great quantities.
LOOK at the links below, seven seperate ads all from today or yesterday. LOWEST PRICE IS 30$.

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=738207 35$
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=728434 55$
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=738157 45$
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=664193 75$
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=737808 30$
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=722522 55$
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=50&de=644659 50$

Oh, and don't forget, DISCOUNTS on more than one!

Ridiculous
 
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