Who Keeps These People In Check?

[Floof]

That's really surprising.. I mean, how hard is it to separate the lizards from the tortoises.. I suppose it's OK sometimes if it's just one tortoise and one lizard.

IMO, it's never okay to house lizards and tortoises together... Vastly different care requirements, the stress factor, the potential of them hurting each other (lizard attacking tortoise or tortoise biting lizard--either way), and, of course, the issue of parasite transfer, especially when keeping WC tortoises (as seen here) with something like bearded dragons, who are already very prone to carrying parasites in captivity (i.e. coccidia, a big concern in beardies).

Unfortunately, this isn't the only pet store that practices this awful cohabitation. I once came across a pet store in Pocatello, Idaho that houses iguanas, some 3 different subspecies of box turtle, and Russian tortoises all in one big cage. The water dish was way too high for the turtles & tortoises to get in, and it was full of iguana poop, anyway. The floor of the cage, which was something like 3x2 feet, was so covered in fake plants, food dishes, and that massive, tall water dish, that the 8 or so turtles/torts didn't even have room to walk. They at least had UVB... But that's not much consolation given the rest of the situation. I wish I'd said something.

As far as the Sulcatas are concerned, unfortunately, the new ways that are so highly recommended on this forum, that have garnered such great results, are still that--"New." Outside of this forum, most people are too set in the "old ways" of raising Sulcatas, and absolutely refuse to switch to such a drastically different care regime than what they're used to. So, the Sulcata enclosure doesn't surprise me much.. In fact, I'm more surprised that they even have a water dish and get soaked at all.

It would be absolutely wonderful if you can change their minds with the Sulcatas... You might be able to get somewhere by pointing out how stupid the "old way" is. Not in those words, mind you--I mean with logic. Like the fact that all animals need water, they aren't going to kill themselves by over-watering themselves, and then suggest a compromise: Ask him to start by offering a couple humid hides and a good water dish, then he can judge where to go from there based on his tortoises' behavior. It helps, too, if you can bring a couple caresheets... Tom's, for example, and I know AfricanTortoise.com touches on the importance of humidity/hydration--maybe enough to get across to the owner that it's not just you and this forum that believes the dry method is dangerous. If you can just get the change started, that alone is an accomplishment. Don't expect them to change their views on Sulcata care overnight, but if you can just get them on the right track... With a small addition of a humid hide, or a slight change in routine (more soaks)... It would be a start.

On the tortoise/lizard situation, and the overall sick animals/dirty store issue, it may take a visit from the authorities to get them to consider changing...

 

[mattk]

I know how you feel. I went to a pet store in Salisbury Maryland yesterday just to see what they had. I saw this poor red foot with swollen shut eyes so first think I looked at was what lights they had on the tank. You will never guess what they were using. Yep a compact florescent bulb. I also notice the water dish was so tall that there was no way the redfoot could even use it. Well I tried to talk to one of the workers there and tell them to not use that type bulb but it was like talking to a brick wall. It just gets me so mad at times.

 

[DeanS]

Before you take it to extremes...i.e. USDA, etc...complain to your local Animal Control Agency. If they're anything like ours (City of LA), then they'll take pet shop complaints pretty seriously. And David is right...it's not against the law to house multiple species together...provided they all have the same needs...and don't prey on one another!

 

[ascott]

I again suggest you contact the FDA--without warning to the shop. You asked who keeps these people in check? well, we all do. When you happen upon a shop like this---you are the first line of help for the mis treated critters.

I would not feel bad about contacting the proper agencies, these folks are not housing a turtle or lizard or two...they are housing multiple animals of different species within the same enclosures and not maintaing sanitary conditions (according to what you have shared and pics).

There is nothing that is going to change anything unless you do the first request to the appropriate agencies....I know some will immediately jump on me for saying that---as there is a real hatred for the agencies, as they are often targeted as the "bad guys"....however, are you alright with simply telling your story, showing some pics, shaking your head---and tossing up your hands with the statement " I don't know what to do, what can I do?

Well, there were some tips here offered and what you do with them is your choice, you know?

I think 75% of the animals in the store is sick.

Along with FDA (they are only going to initially be interested in the undersized turtle sales) you can also contact the SPCA http://spcala.com/aps/crueltytipline.php and let them know the situation and they can advise to you what they are able to do.

I wish you well on the decisions to make.....

 

[torti]

Thanks everyone on the feed back of what to do. Cause like you guys said talking to the owners/workers is like talking to a brick wall. In a few days when I'm off from work I will definately call some of these numbers and see what I get from them. Ill keep you guys updated.

 

[zesty_17]

U.S. Food and Drug Administration
10903 New Hampshire Avenue
Silver Spring, MD 20993
Ph. 1-888-INFO-FDA (1-888-463-6332)

You can contact them directly about the illegally undersized tortoise for sale....this will get the opportunity for them to come into the business and check on the turtle sales....and if they find any other violations great....I would not warn the pet shop that you are going to do this...as those turtle can disappear quickly (toilets are a quick way that they are disposed of in a hurry)

While it is not illegal to house variety of species together, there is also a question of public relations...perhaps if you shared your photos with the local newspaper and a blurb from you then there may be some changes ...then again may not, you know?

---

By the way....what city and state is this pet shop in, if you don't mind

---

i second this.

 

[jaizei]

The FDA would be the last ones I contacted. Their 'solution' for the undersized turtles will be to destroy them.

 

[ascott]

The FDA would be the last ones I contacted. Their 'solution' for the undersized turtles will be to destroy them.

I am always curious as to where this type of statement is generated from, yes, there are times that they will kill an very ill animal....but also, there are loads of facilities that they use that they turn over the animals to for care....just as when other agencies confiscate illegal shipments of exotics---they are not just killed for the sake of killing.

Please offer up a substantiated factual report that this is what their practice is for for every situation. This is such a scare tactic statement, IMHO that is.

I know that this is not the case for every animal. Actually, here is where it gets weird for me (that statement I mean)...so should we allow the turtles to be housed and kept in a reckless unsanitary unhealthy condition and allow them a slow and agonizing death at the hands of a pet shop owner that more times than not---know exactly how to care for these critters and simply choose to NOT do what should be---simply because they are interested in their bottom line? Then those same animals are sold off to a person that is advised how to poorly take care of the animal for even a further tortured time frame? What would you prescribe as the full proof remedy?

I will apologize here with my passion on this topic....if we choose to do nothing then who will stop this craziness?

 

[jaizei]

The FDA would be the last ones I contacted. Their 'solution' for the undersized turtles will be to destroy them.

I am always curious as to where this type of statement is generated from

Code of Federal Regulations
TITLE 21--FOOD AND DRUGS
CHAPTER I--FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES
SUBCHAPTER L--REGULATIONS UNDER CERTAIN OTHER ACTS ADMINISTERED BY THE FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION

PART 1240 -- CONTROL OF COMMUNICABLE DISEASES

Subpart D--Specific Administrative Decisions Regarding Interstate Shipments
Sec. 1240.62 Turtles intrastate and interstate requirements.

(a)Definition. As used in this section the term "turtles" includes all animals commonly known as turtles, tortoises, terrapins, and all other animals of the order Testudinata, class Reptilia, except marine species (families Dermachelidae and Chelonidae).

(b)Sales; general prohibition. Except as otherwise provided in this section, viable turtle eggs and live turtles with a carapace length of less than 4 inches shall not be sold, held for sale, or offered for any other type of commercial or public distribution.

(c.)Destruction of turtles or turtle eggs; criminal penalties. (1) Any viable turtle eggs or live turtles with a carapace length of less than 4 inches which are held for sale or offered for any other type of commercial or public distribution shall be subject to destruction in a humane manner by or under the supervision of an officer or employee of the Food and Drug Administration in accordance with the following procedures:

(i) Any District Office of the Food and Drug Administration, upon detecting viable turtle eggs or live turtles with a carapace length of less than 4 inches which are held for sale or offered for any other type of commercial or public distribution, shall serve upon the person in whose possession such turtles or turtle eggs are found a written demand that such turtles or turtle eggs be destroyed in a humane manner under the supervision of said District Office, within 10 working days from the date of promulgation of the demand. The demand shall recite with particularity the facts which justify the demand. After service of the demand, the person in possession of the turtles or turtle eggs shall not sell, distribute, or otherwise dispose of any of the turtles or turtle eggs except to destroy them under the supervision of the District Office, unless and until the Director of the Center for Veterinary Medicine withdraws the demand for destruction after an appeal pursuant to paragraph (c)(1)(ii) of this section.

(ii) The person on whom the demand for destruction is served may either comply with the demand or, within 10 working days from the date of its promulgation, appeal the demand for destruction to the Director of the Center for Veterinary Medicine, Food and Drug Administration, 7519 Standish Pl., Rockville, MD 20855. The demand for destruction may also be appealed within the same period of 10 working days by any other person having a pecuniary interest in such turtles or turtle eggs. In the event of such an appeal, the Center Director shall provide an opportunity for hearing by written notice to the appellant(s) specifying a time and place for the hearing, to be held within 14 days from the date of the notice but not within less than 7 days unless by agreement with the appellant(s).

(iii) Appearance by any appellant at the hearing may be by mail or in person, with or without counsel. The hearing shall be conducted by the Center Director or his designee, and a written summary of the proceedings shall be prepared by the person presiding. Any appellant shall have the right to hear and to question the evidence on which the demand for destruction is based, including the right to cross-examine witnesses, and he may present oral or written evidence in response to the demand.

(iv) If, based on the evidence presented at the hearing, the Center Director finds that the turtles or turtle eggs were held for sale or offered for any other type of commercial or public distribution in violation of this section, he shall affirm the demand that they be destroyed under the supervision of an officer or employee of the Food and Drug Administration; otherwise, the Center Director shall issue a written notice that the prior demand by the District Office is withdrawn. If the Center Director affirms the demand for destruction he shall order that the destruction be accomplished in a humane manner within 10 working days from the date of the promulgation of his decision. The Center Director's decision shall be accompanied by a statement of the reasons for the decision. The decision of the Center Director shall constitute final agency action, reviewable in the courts.

(v) If there is no appeal to the Director of the Center for Veterinary Medicine from the demand by the Food and Drug Administration District Office and the person in possession of the turtles or turtle eggs fails to destroy them within 10 working days, or if the demand is affirmed by the Director of the Center for Veterinary Medicine after an appeal and the person in possession of the turtles or turtle eggs fails to destroy them within 10 working days, the District Office shall designate an officer or employee to destroy the turtles or turtle eggs. It shall be unlawful to prevent or to attempt to prevent such destruction of turtles or turtle eggs by the officer or employee designated by the District Office. Such destruction will be stayed if so ordered by a court pursuant to an action for review in the courts as provided in paragraph (c)(1)(iv) of this section.

(2) Any person who violates any provision of this section, including but not limited to any person who sells, offers for sale, or offers for any other type of commercial or public distribution viable turtle eggs or live turtles with a carapace length of less than 4 inches, or who refuses to comply with a valid final demand for destruction of turtles or turtle eggs (either an unappealed demand by an FDA District Office or a demand which has been affirmed by the Director of the Center for Veterinary Medicine pursuant to appeal), or who fails to comply with the requirement in such a demand that the manner of destruction be humane, shall be subject to a fine of not more than $1,000 or imprisonment for not more than 1 year, or both, for each violation, in accordance with section 368 of the Public Health Service Act (42 U.S.C. 271).

(d)Exceptions. The provisions of this section are not applicable to:

(1) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and viable turtle eggs for bona fide scientific, educational, or exhibitional purposes, other than use as pets.

(2) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and viable turtle eggs not in connection with a business.

(3) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and viable turtle eggs intended for export only, provided that the outside of the shipping package is conspicuously labeled "For Export Only."

(4) Marine turtles excluded from this regulation under the provisions of paragraph (a) of this section and eggs of such turtles.

(e)Petitions. The Commissioner of Food and Drugs, either on his own initiative or on behalf of any interested person who has submitted a petition, may publish a proposal to amend this regulation. Any such petition shall include an adequate factual basis to support the petition, and will be published for comment if it contains reasonable grounds for the proposed regulation. A petition requesting such a regulation, which would amend this regulation, shall be submitted to the Division of Dockets Management, Food and Drug Administration, 5630 Fishers Lane, rm. 1061, Rockville, MD 20852.

[40 FR 22545, May 23, 1975, as amended at 46 FR 8461, Jan. 27, 1981; 48 FR 11431, Mar. 18, 1983; 54 FR 24900, June 12, 1989; 59 FR 14366, Mar. 28, 1994; 66 FR 56035, Nov. 6, 2001; 70 FR 48073, Aug. 18, 2005]

I don't know where the idea that the FDA will destroy seized tortoises came from. Though, I will admit that the FDA's Compliance Policy Guides allow for some discretion in allowing other organization to take the animals, I wouldn't count on it.

If you must report something, start local.

 

[ascott]

FDA's Compliance Policy Guides allow for some discretion

It allows for alot of discretion actually You will see this discretion at work when ever you read an article of a large sieze of illegal exotic tortoises of all species and sizes....

btw, last time I read the DMV handbook---you are only allowed to drive the posted speed limit....we see how that works out....speed, get a ticket, pay a fine and speed on our way out of the court house....

It is awesome though that you have posted and shared that portion of information, it can and does come in handy...

My suggestions still remain. Keep in mind, we all have an opinion of the best way to do things all based on our own life experiences....

 

[jaizei]

FDA's Compliance Policy Guides allow for some discretion

It allows for alot of discretion actually You will see this discretion at work when ever you read an article of a large sieze of illegal exotic tortoises of all species and sizes....

btw, last time I read the DMV handbook---you are only allowed to drive the posted speed limit....we see how that works out....speed, get a ticket, pay a fine and speed on our way out of the court house....

This really makes no sense and does nothing to prove your point. However, using your analogy: The penalty for speeding is a fine. Just like the 'penalty' for undersized turtles is to destroy them. Does this mean that everyone caught speeding pays a fine? No, officers have discretion and can give warnings. Does this mean that 100% of turtles are destroyed? No, it is acceptable to remove them from distribution in other ways. But I wouldn't consider that to be the rule. The turtles will be destroyed, unless another organization is willing to take them. How many zoos do you know that want sulcatas or RES? What about rescues? Exactly. Even including rescues as one of those organizations is dubious at best because rescues don't really meet the FDA's goal: removing the turtles from distribution (keeping the turtles out of the hands of children). If an undersized turtle is turned over to a rescue, odds are that it was by local entity. The FDA is not concerned about the welfare of the turtles. They care about the sale and distribution of those turtles. They don't publicize when they freeze the ones no one wants.

It is awesome though that you have posted and shared that portion of information, it can and does come in handy...

So my posting of that was the first time you read it?

 

[ascott]

So my posting of that was the first time you read it?

No

This really makes no sense and does nothing to prove your point.

No point trying to be proven

The turtles will be destroyed

If this statement works for you, then so be it

They don't publicize when they freeze the ones no one wants.

But they will pay for huge freezers? Interesting.

Appears here that it is much more important for you to be right, (and the path that this thread is going is pointless to me, as I do not desire to be part of a pissing match) so go ahead...

 

[Jacqui]

Similar situation to our local zoo, and this was one of their better tortoise environments:

As I started reading this thread, visions of almost every zoo I have ever been in popped into my mind and then I saw your post showing the same thing.

 

[dmmj]

When RES babies are confiscated here in CA, they are turned over the the various CTTC chapters, since according to state law an animal has to be euthanized with a shot, no gas chambers.

 

[Yvonne G]

or freezers.

 

[Yvonne G]

I've said on a different thread that we're not going to put up with squabbles on the forum and I meant it. I'm the one who deleted your posts, blame me and only me. If you want to continue the debate about who keeps these people in check, fine, but no squabbles.

 

[Jacqui]

I do have to agree with those who recommended starting at the low level rather then going in with the "big guns". "Big guns" just tend to blow things up, create a mess and yet not really solve things the way we hope they will. The way we hope they will, being the one where the animals are saved.

 

[Squidget]

Wow there's are so many things wrong with this pic! Let's just skip ahead that torts and beardies are bein kept together. But they are on woodchips which can cause impaction not to mention that those greens (most likely lettuce) are ways too big for the beardies and bearded dragons eat crickets and other bugs and idk what type of torts those are but somehow I doubt they eat crickets as well. Plus they look dehydrated. I would have flipped on that owner (I'm not one to take animal abuse lightly and I have a big mouth lol) and I would have told everyone I could see what horrible pet store owners they were. This is just wrong. Sorry I know this is a tort forum but owning a formerly abused beardie I saw first hand what this kind of husbandry does to them and how hard it is to correct if even possible, and I felt this needed to be addressed lol.

 

[tortoiselady]

Very sad.

---

When RES babies are confiscated here in CA, they are turned over the the various CTTC chapters, since according to state law an animal has to be euthanized with a shot, no gas chambers.

Most of our chapters do not have any place for these red ear sliders. It is always a challenge to even get one a home. Just sad...

 

[Turtleswagg]

When RES babies are confiscated here in CA, they are turned over the the various CTTC chapters, since according to state law an animal has to be euthanized with a shot, no gas chambers.

at this park called Ralph B. Clark they have a bunch of abandoned RES and western painteds but the rangers protect them, idk if ur in socal but if u are u should check it out